Brett C
Frontier
I get triggered more often than not. Let's just say that. :|
An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging
- Thread starter ryan_m
- Start date
I get triggered more often than not. Let's just say that. :|
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Hilarious. A group of fools kills people just to enrage them, and then gets enraged when their prey combat logs just to enrage them. Hypocrisy abounds!
FD, seriously- stop with the kid gloves. You want to fix logging? Great. Make being a murder hobo a living Hell in game. Gloves off for both sides.
FD, seriously- stop with the kid gloves. You want to fix logging? Great. Make being a murder hobo a living Hell in game. Gloves off for both sides.
verminstar
Banned
While in other threads, players are complaining about the losses being too high...always makes one chuckle. So literally how eve used to be years ago...ye lost yer ship was ok if ye managed to get out with yer clone...the loss of yer clone was devastating to time spent on time training unless ye had a backup clone. Not counting the serious amount of money spent on high end implants and hardwires. The begging some players did while their pod was exposed and trapped...the money offered in return for mercy was just...delicious
But however...long time ago and eve is a very different game than this...fundamentally as eve was designed around pvp with the environment and wildlife nothing more than resources farmed to fund progression. ED on the othe hand is designed as primarily a pve game with much more emphasis on the environment and flight model...almost a space sim where pure exploration gameplay is not only viable, but fairly popular.
Ironman mode is only practical in solo mode where death really is a case of personal stupidity or plain old fashioned bad luck rather than some kid getting their jollies just because they can.
Although I doubt many go fer it at all more than once...most tend to regret it when they realize the true consequences...always funny to see ^
Brett C
Frontier
Unfortunately, that's a customer support team / anti-cheat team issue, not a community team issue. While myself and others do pass on the word about such events, it's out of my hands and the community teams hands at that point.
I do know that we do suspensions/bans in batches, as to when that happens - I don't know, I'm not privileged regarding that information.
No we're saying you're both as bad as each other.
Great perspective and well explained. Personally, I view the CLer as the lowest of the low.
On some of the old school pvp servers I used to play on in Everquest for example. There were times you dared someone to kill you. Because the repercussions were grave if you did. Your rep would drop real fast, you'd be KOS to the guards.
Make death painless and even rewarding.. and extremely punishing for any sort of "unconsented" violence against other players.
Its pretty simple. Other game have done it. It works.
People need to flag for pvp. If they do they consent to it and no combat logging is allowed at all under penalty of banning. Let PVE players fly around and choose when they feel like fighting.
Then you find all the mobius people will rejoin the galaxy and the entire game will feel more alive.
Make death painless and even rewarding.. and extremely punishing for any sort of "unconsented" violence against other players.
Its pretty simple. Other game have done it. It works.
People need to flag for pvp. If they do they consent to it and no combat logging is allowed at all under penalty of banning. Let PVE players fly around and choose when they feel like fighting.
Then you find all the mobius people will rejoin the galaxy and the entire game will feel more alive.
Amen to that... the word 'griefing' is so misused on this forum by the wet-blanket crowd.
But don't you see your very rhetoric and generic bandings of players creates the very divisions you feel are poisoning the game. You are not just creating sub-groups of "problem people" and labelling them, you're also quantifying the scale of the problem with no evidence beyond the vocal voices. I'm not saying that I have any evidence to the contrary, I just feel the hyperbole and assumptions made on either side of debates like this don't really get to the real issue - and that's it is a grey area. It's not simply about people not wanting to own up to the results of an interaction, and it's not simply a matter of FD creating some magic device that will be punish customers who have purchased into ED and may suffer disconnects or genuinely feel there is an unfairness at play (regardless of whether that's a fair assessment).
The point is there are many perspectives here, and far too few ways to really legitimately punish because of it. I think the FD rule Brett points to is a very, probably intentionally, vague term, because there is an acknowledgment that specifiity on this is very, very hard. How do FD punish a peer to peer system they cannot control or monitor without being invasive? How do they really tell customers that they are to be punished for playing a game as they wish if its not causing massive damage? How many people have thrown their paddle down and switched off their console when they've felt they've reached a point which is just irritating, not wanting to go through the whole death thing? I suspect it's an extension of that sort of commodity mentality. It's not to say its right, but I don't think that's really about them trying to spoil another person's victory, often it could be they just have found it very hard, very frustrating and just switched off their PC. Again, doesn't make it right, but there is an issue of owned commodity, and as a game, people walking when they want.
Perhaps if ED was a pure combat game it would be easy to traverse this issue, but it isn't. ED for many is about exploring and community goals with their friends, or exploring with unknown ships rather than combat. FD knows this, that how those customers support the game isn't with a gun - and with many, the RPers, who feel many attack with no interest in the game, just looking to up their ranks artificially, and looking for easy targets to vent some work day frustration. Those RPers might not want their time and efforts wiped clean by someone who pops on just to kill small targets for stress relief or easy ranking.
My point is ED is sold as an experience, a multi-experience, where people find their own value to the game. Combat for many isn't their value, but they enjoy Open for the community. And evey those "many", as I outlined, are split into many different ideologies - and many perhaps have logged once, ever. Others are subject to bad connections who could be charged with logging unfairly. Given that you catch 99 combat loggers, is it fair the 01 is punished for an issue with networking? He's paid for the game and he's being punished by the game for something beyond his control? Is combat logging THAT big a deal?
So yes, this is a complex situation not just tied up in the instances of combat, but the technicalities of peer 2 peer worlds, different values within the game, different feelings of what is a "crime" (some put griefing higher as a crime, others just don't see the big deal), all probably leaving FD with a dubious situation of not wanting to define issues that are so complex, and being forced to enforce issues they can't fairly enforce on customers who value the game in different ways. Especially knowing this gets MORE complex when you consider the retribution, where PvP is leaked into Private groups as recompense for their avoidance of combat, and again, you've got a messy situation where as a company, you're going to upset someone trying to control an issue you can't really control. All you can do is encourage people to play fairly, which is what I'm seeing.
It's a pointless post I guess. These sort of issues create lines in the sand people never rub out. It's them vs everyone else. I get why people are frustrated, and if there was a way to make Open fair for all, I'd be behind that. I don't see it. I don't see any "side" being entirely righteous, probably because no true "side" exists. I don't support combat logging (it's a game, if you're about to lose, that's how it goes, learn from it, and move on - to PVE if it helps) or griefing (and when you're solely attacking human ships that are smaller than you who can't win, yes, you're griefing, as in world, you wouldn't make the distinction between AI and Human. If you're picking one over the other, you're not playing the game the way other players expect you too, you're being self indulgent). But solutions are near impossible, especially when we make this the old binary of PVP vs PVE.
I repeat that I have never harmed anyone who was not Wanted or a Powerplay enemy. Indeed I spent nearly a year with Adle's Armada defending players against PvP aggression. I believe I am on the 'right' side of forum morality therefore.
Personally I think the solution is that any revamped C&P system exempts Powerplay Pledger v Powerplay Pledger kills entirely. That is basically the flag right there. And it might even reinvigorate Powerplay a bit.
Brett C
Frontier
I need to install project99 again. Haven't played EverQuest in so long. Do something against a faction/rep, your characters rep would plummet against them. XP loss per death as well, along with corpse looting.
He didn't say that he pulled the plug on his computer, he said "I disconnect our P2P connection." Elite uses P2P for instancing and it's very easy to eliminate an unwanted connection.
My statement is pointed towards those that take advantage of the poor crime and punishment system and indiscriminately kill because they can. (then go on forums to complain because it's not easy enough)
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+1
I appreciate that, but I would think you might reconsider saying such things when it flies in the face of player experience. I'm on a large group on Teamspeak and for months listened to players bragging about how to exploit billions of credits.
This is what I mean by the credibility gap. You make a statement as if it's credible, but player experience is the exact opposite.
In the current environment there's been no chatter from any corner that I'm aware of that indicates that any actions are being taken on any of these issues, be it exploits or CLing.
Just stating that the potential is there has ceased being a deterrent about 2 years ago - shortly after the Lave killings by a rather famous CMDR who did get banned for a time. It was known and had an effect, but that was long ago and it's deterrent impact has long since faded. I never hear any experienced CMDR talk about being afraid of consequences, rather they generally laugh and say don't worry about it, it's all just bluff, FD never does anything.
I accept it's not your responsibility, but I would hope you ask around to see if my perception is inaccurate, because I see no EVIDENCE to the contrary. Again, I've followed this and other threads and see others write what they believe, but in the absence of any real tangible information I have to conclude that the many instances of published exploits and communication chatter that indicates a total absence of consequences, that it's hard to conclude that any action is really being undertaken.
Arguendo
Volunteer Moderator
Without naming and shaming? Sorry, no can do
You could always go to a certain FB group though, and see what happens to people with alt-accounts in the "wrong places".
+1 rep. Very reasonable. How dare you be reasonable!
Reported for wearing a Santa hat outside of December.
Damnation ... I think I hit 'repped' by mistake ...
I was going to come up with some sort of retort, but I really can't. You've swayed me GluttonyFang.
Well, you combined with Bretts response.
Actually I am, more or less, falling victim to what I said was going to happen. That the op is going to create atmosphere of distrust and discontent.
That atmosphere is now affecting me.
I'm not taking back anything I said, now I believe it more than ever. Frontier can burn in the same fire as OP and SDC for all I care.
I'm taking another indefinite break from ED. I'll pop in every now and then. Most certainly when 2.3 releases. Final Fantasy 15 releases at the end of the month, so I will be occupied.
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