An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[Arguendo]

Does anybody really believe that, though? That a true crime and punishment system would somehow encourage CLers to NOT pull the plug whenever threatened with the rebuy screen? I just don't think so--CLers aren't going to stop pulling the plug until Fdev implements a punishment system for them. The onus isn't on the "bad guys" as the bulk of this forum seems to think. It's on the cheaters.

I believe there will always be those who prefer to "pull the plug" because they don't accept losing their spaceships to people who attack them "for no reason", and then some who feel the same about people attacking them at all. I do however also believe, that a proper C&P system will bring more people to Open that won't CL, and I believe (hope?) that is one of the reasons the PvP community is also asking for such a system.
There actually are players out there who want to play in Open, but with the whole system so incredibly skewed in the favour of one side no matter where you go, they won't. I truly believe that people want to be properly pirated as well, as it is actually part of a larger whole. They do however not want to meet a murder-hobo around every corner, and zero response from the system (ie. the game).

Sorry, not part of that particular argument, but sometimes I have to

 

[Brett C]

Without naming and shaming? Sorry, no can do

You could always go to a certain FB group though, and see what happens to people with alt-accounts in the "wrong places".

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/private.php?do=newpm - you can always PM users.

 

[bubbabenali]

So, FDEV didn't watch your YT vids -> You factize they don't care...
And they didn't inform you or the logger about any punishment -> You factize they don't care...

Nice scientific experimentation you did there, your elementary teacher would be so proud of you.

 

[SirAdelaide]

Thanks for the reply Bret.

"Unfortunately, this will not readily fix the intertwined issue of people just using a script, hotkey or process manager to kill the game client. "

but... can it be made to. Such if your oponent pulls their ethernet plug whist in space their ship doesn't vanish. It stops dead or an AI flies it instead on the non loggers screens. If the ship is subsequently (90 seconds) destroyed the combat logger resumes play at the rebuy screen. PVP guy gets his bounty everybody happy! If after 90 seconds the ship is not destroyed then hyperspace out/vanish the ship.

What if the logger gets back in the game in under 90 sec? When should the rebuy screen come up if they are flying while you kill their old ghost?

 

[Asp Explorer]

What if the logger gets back in the game in under 90 sec? When should the rebuy screen come up if they are flying while you kill their old ghost?

Or they log back in, say 15 seconds later, in their original ship and blow up the attacker which is still fighting their clone

 

[Arguendo]

Amen to that... the word 'griefing' is so misused on this forum by the wet-blanket crowd.

Here's the thing though, BrettC even posted the definition of griefing from Wiki himself:

A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, often using aspects of the game in unintended ways.[1] A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

See that highlighted part? That is the explicit reason for some of the killing that is happening in the game as we speak. "We are not here to ruin the game. We are here to ruin your game." Ring a bell?
The definition of griefing is often limited strictly to the part about using an in-game exploit. The word itself though lends more to the intentions of the player, not what methods are used. When someone kills just to make the other party suffer, then it is, by the above definition, griefing. And if you don't believe that happens in this game, you haven't watched a lot of streams.
Is it as prevalent as the forums here will have you believe? Not by a long shot! So you are right about it being misused ad nauseum here. But to say it doesn't exist is missing the mark by a mile. (last not directed at you)

 

[GluttonyFang]

I was going to come up with some sort of retort, but I really can't. You've swayed me GluttonyFang.
Well, you combined with Bretts response.

Actually I am, more or less, falling victim to what I said was going to happen. That the op is going to create atmosphere of distrust and discontent.
That atmosphere is now affecting me.

I'm not taking back anything I said, now I believe it more than ever. Frontier can burn in the same fire as OP and SDC for all I care.

I'm taking another indefinite break from ED. I'll pop in every now and then. Most certainly when 2.3 releases. Final Fantasy 15 releases at the end of the month, so I will be occupied.

As much as I want to say "much obliged," I don't want to see Frontier to lose players on ED, but they really need to step up the game instead of pushing ahead with features.

We are already behind schedule, an overhaul of Crime and Punishment won't really disappoint people much more and if anything invite more interactive and constructive multiplayer game play.

 

[Be4st]

The only way I can think of to fix combat logging is to have a feature similar to that of EvE Online where you get a 15 minute timer with aggression to you or to another and if you log off/disconnect, your ship remains motionless for the duration of the timer. Once the timer is up you vanish.

 

[Velanko]

i know fixing combat loggers is possible and a trained programmer could do it in a day. simply a matter of monitoring users logins. all games do it anyway and some even give a daily reward for logging in. when theirs a spike of disconnecting and connecting more than say 5 times over an hour (disconnecting meaning combat logging or internet/power fail) then slap them out of open play. simple easy and almost foolproof for the two hours until hackers inevitably rip it to pieces like they do everything.

 

[Arguendo]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/private.php?do=newpm - you can always PM users.

I don't have time to PM all the users that would ask for it then, and with the limit of PM'ing 5 users at a time it would absolutely destroy my post-per-minute ratio

 

[Kkronnoss]

If you're talking about the infiltration of Mobius (a group I used to fly in from time to time) then I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I don't recall seeing anything in the way of support for those actions outside of the group who orchestrated it. Most people agreed that it was in very poor taste.

The EvE/WoW legacy PvP mentality to which you refer is built upon certain truths about video games in which players are able to attack and kill/destroy each other. Those truths are that, in the case of ED, if you click on Open Play you're basically making yourself a target for any commander that feels like turning your ship into scrap metal. If this is unacceptable to you, play solo or join/form a private group. I don't say that to try and rile you or insult you, I'm offering it as a valid and approved mechanism for avoiding unwanted conflict. People kill each other in PvP enabled games. That's just how it is. Open Play is PvP enabled. Being attacked and possibly destroyed is simply a part of playing in Open.

The other simple yet seemingly inconvenient truth that many PvE focussed players choose to ignore is that Combat Logging is against the ToS and has been categorically classified as an exploit by Frontier Developments. That's not up for debate. If you combat log, you're breaking the ToS and you should be penalised. That's not my opinion, that's Frontier Developments official stance on the matter.

When the issue is put like this; very intelligent, objective and considered, i have to agree and this is from someone who doesn't agree with experienced, highly equipped CMDRs attacking new players or those exploring (and are stationary/parked on planets), unable to defend themselves, getting into wings and outnumbering then attacking clearly less able/equipped CMDRs etc and then laughing up the schadenfreude (but only because i think it's against the spirit of human nature and requires zero skill and i can't understand the enjoyment in these things but that's just me and i don't need to understand how others enjoy the game, it's none of my business) AND someone who plays in Mobius.

Very hard to argue with this statement.

 

[Niin Kaunis]

Hilarious. A group of fools kills people just to enrage them, and then gets enraged when their prey combat logs just to enrage them. Hypocrisy abounds!

FD, seriously- stop with the kid gloves. You want to fix logging? Great. Make being a murder hobo a living Hell in game. Gloves off for both sides.

Why should they make being a random murderer a living hell? How about people just learn to defend themselves, I have never had a problem with gankers. If you go into a pvp enviroment, be prepared for pvp.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Why should they make being a random murderer a living hell? How about people just learn to defend themselves, I have never had a problem with gankers. If you go into a pvp enviroment, be prepared for pvp.

I never have either. I just think it's ironic that SDC attempts to kill players to troll them, only for those players to combat log and in essence reverse troll SDC. SDC gets mad enough about it to orchestrate an elaborate sting operation and now here we are.

So I have to wonder who actually got trolled here?

On the other side, I totally see Truesilver's point and it's just as likely people who are murder hobos are also combat logging when the shoe is on the other foot. Immaturity on both ends, I suppose.

[edit] - Also, for real dog? This game kills you for being tardy around a landing strip or around the slot of a space station. This game kills you for a mistaken shot or an idiot NPC running into a mine. This game is like Escape from New York.

Except when it comes to being a murder hobo in which case it's totally okay guys. Part of the game. Top kek.

 

[veryinky]

Why should they make being a random murderer a living hell?

Heh. This is why the game needs proper crime and punishment, players are being trained to be unable to even understand consequences.

 

[Kkronnoss]

On the other side, I totally see Truesilver's point and it's just as likely people who are murder hobos are also combat logging when the shoe is on the other foot. Immaturity on both ends, I suppose.

Likely? Certainly...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8uNe0sTyr0

 

[Niin Kaunis]

Heh. This is why the game needs proper crime and punishment, players are being trained to be unable to even understand consequences.

Unable to understand consequences? I do understand the consequences, you get a 6k bounty. Why should anyone really care about you dying or not? It is a big galaxy.

Full pvp is full pvp, I for one have never understood whining about it since WoW days. Learn to deal with it yourself instead of asking for an automated help from someone else.

 

[TaoZero5]

I think I see an avalanche coming! RUN!

...no, wait, it's just a ton of white knights.

This should, at the very least, be entertaining. Can't wait to see how the fanboys react (although I'm placing my bets on wild accusations and personal insults).

Eleven pages in 2 days. That's TLR (dang! I mean it was too long. I did not read. - zero smileys)

Here is my Fanboy White Nut defence of Frontier. Play the Game your own way!
Frontier say combat logging is against the rules.
I play the game my way - I choose to not break the rules of the games I play. I don't need to be policed.

 

[Underhook]

There's an old chinese proverb that goes..

There's no fire that can burn a room made of stone.

Meaning all the combat log cheating you refer to, has to be the consequence of another underlying broken mechanic.

Lets all try to focus on that instead? Maybe FDEV prefer constructive feedback and suggestions?

http://www.words-chinese.com/images2/chinese_symbols_for_harmony_9004_2_68.png

Would be a good point if they hadn't had 2 years to act on the constructive feed back and suggestions.

 

[Red Anders]

The question here is really that we have no idea what FD's customers are.

The game itself is a sandbox, PvE and PvP happen as long as you are not in solo.

If the devs don't want PvP or don't see it as important, they wouldn't do balancing for it or have features aimed at making PvP better. But they have done things to improve PvP and haven't offered a PVE mode.

If the devs don't want PvE, they wouldn't allow something like menu logging, but they do.

And what you have left are customers slinging mud at one another trying to prove that daddy FD loves them and their faction more than others, which is just sad at that point.

yet, both sides are yelling for crime and punishment, at least from what I can see most people are interested in crime and punishment improvement. But Brett C comes out and say that the company's too afraid to take complex steps out of fear of offending one side of the customer base.

The only conclusion I can draw is that FD is somehow happy with the current state of the game, that combat logging is fine and "griefing" is also fine. Which is a toxic cycle that goes to no end, which might as well call the game "Elite: ToxicMudSlingContest."

They should make everybody at the company read that first thing tomorrow.

I found Brett's comments regarding C&P and the issues around it particularly troubling because yeah, it's absolutely guaranteed that if you follow the various branches that any such mechanics could take far enough up the tree, you'll eventually reach someone who ends up being terminally mad about it but unless this is trying to be the first univerally loved game in the history of computing that's not actually a problem, or more accurately it's absolutely not a reason to do nothing. As Brett acknowledged, the current situation is clearly ing a hell of a lot of people off and that should really be a bigger concern. Just bumbling through and hoping it's all going to go away isn't working, surely it's time to crap or get off the pot.

 

[DarkWalker]

Explain?

How if you pull the plug on your computer can you still kill me? Surely you get black "bad connection" error and therefore can't kill me in the cicumstances you state. I get to kill you for free coz your still there on my computer which is still plugged in.

From a networking point of view, you have one connection to each other player in your instance, and one connection to Frontier. While literally pulling the plug will cut all of those at the same time, it's possible to selectively block only some of those connections — say, by using a macro to enable a firewall rule blocking every connection except the one to Frontier (which can be done using only your OS, without further 3rd party software, BTW). This makes you still technically logged, as your game can still communicate with the game servers, but boots you out of the instance you were in, as you can no longer communicate with the other players.

You can even do it in a low-tech way. If you are using Wi-Fi, You can literally use a tinfoil hat or a Pringles can to degrade your connection to the point it's useless for the peer to peer aspect (and, thus, for playing with others in Open) but barely usable for the server connection (allowing you to still be online, if barely), no software needed.