An investigation into Frontier's actions on Combat Logging

[CMDR Reza Malin]

FD would not comment on any activity anyway. They would keep it under wraps just as they don;t allow 'naming & shaming' here on the forums.

At best your 'evidence' is one tiny notch above anecdotal. It suggests a response along the lines of 'Cool story, Brah'.

As to FD lying, that's crazy. FD said they are developing ways to monitor logging, not that they could tell when someone combat logged. You have a skewed perspective and it shows in your post.

Did you actually read what the OP and his crew did and how they did it? Or did you ignore it and just knee jerk your way through the comments section?

They didn't even view the youtube footage ....

Sounds to me you need to obsess less with "separating pirates and ships" (so cheesy and lame btw), and focus more on the practices of your beloved devs. If they cant be bothered to be honest about issues that are important to portions of the playerbase, do you really feel that is acceptable for a game charging an annual rebuy for new content?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

but you can on Brussel (low security) or Paris (anarchy).

I think there may be a few French people or Belgians who may take issue with that.

that said I agree with you in principle. the thing is Brett has already stated any changes to crime and criminality IF they happen wont be any time soon.

 

[Truesilver]

Hows this for an Idea to solve the problem

RE:Loggers

Conditions
-Frontier find a way to discern loggers and connection failures

Consequence
-ship stays lifeless in instance
-Pirate/Griefer does what he/she wants
-player relogs with death and rebuy screen (or however pirate left ship)

RE:Griefers

Conditions
-Frontier updates crime and punishment system

Consequence
-Bounty placed on head for nefarious activities (IE wasn't power play, wasn't "fair game")
-Reputation for system superpower and faction takes a hit.
-ability to "mark" player on commander watch list (for revenge or otherwise warning)
-Ability to report player location to authorities and maybe local galnet if wanted
-Authorities much stricter with a "no nonsense" approach to who access their system. scaling with security level.
-More aggressive NPC bounty hunters, scaling with bounty total.

The above is not an idea, it's pretty much a complete consensus so far as I can see, on both sides of the debate.

The devil of course will be in the detail, but well summarised all the same.

if people don't like combat loggers then they should stop attacking players without warnings
I have never combat logged but can see the reason why its done and it seems to me that the only players that complain about it are the ones that cause all the grief

No, this is the forum meme - the logger as hapless innocent. It is based on fact but is grossly overstated. Firstly, if you don't have logging in mind, most players in civilian builds are actually dead before they have slightest idea what's going on. Those who log have it in mind - whether due to the constant forum traffic or prior experience of online gaming.

Secondly, incidental killing is so rare that even so the 'random innocent' logger will probably get only one log in their entire career.

No, the real loggers are premeditated killers of new players, dodgy group members, and Powerplayers, who are simply using an immortality cheat to further their objectives just as much as if they had downloaded a hull health hack. And they do it in Solo / Private Group as well as Open - both some of them and FDev have said as much.

See below.

Griefing is also way less frequent than it's made out. Also, as has been said before, it's the known griefers that generally CL whenever they're taken on by better and smarter PVP pilots who, believe it or not, generally don't like the rather dumb but perfectly legitimate role that they play. We can't help n00bs as and when the situation arises, as the usual suspects will CL on us and continue to grief regardless.

Quite right as ever Mr Stripealipe.

 

[lokvette]

snip/
3) Combat logging is mostly a symptom of bad game mechanics. <--- this is bad for the game and the community.

The solution is to put priority into sorting out the game mechanics:

1) Consequences for those who repeatedly and indiscriminately gank other players should outweigh the consequences of being at the receiving end of a gank.

- it is up to the game developer to figure out how this can be done. So far they have done nothing.

Am I the only person who can see what the underlying cause of all this drama is? Am I mistaken?

Nope.

 

[Kyokushin]

I think there may be a few French people or Belgians who may take issue with that.

that said I agree with you in principle. the thing is Brett has already stated any changes to crime and criminality IF they happen wont be any time soon.

Hm, right, so correction:
Just an example from real world, absolutely nothing personal.

 

[Comrade Error]

Blatantly not true.
PvP piracy may be, sure.
PvE piracy is actually quite profitable.

And consider that Elite is not a PvP game, so maybe that is...in fact not a problem? unfortunately many seem to forget this.
Good points otherwise though I most definitely agree as my own posts point out similar.

If Elite is not a PvP game then it ain't a PvE game either. Or you can say it is a PvP game aswell as a PvE game, unless you choose solo I suppose.

And of course it's an issue, if it wasn't I would want a refund because I bought it due to that type of marketing.

 

[frostypaw]

The piracy rank based on credits earnt from cargo dropped with penalties for deaths is a mighty fine idea. It makes much more sense in a galaxy where the pirates are tolerated. Leaving someone with a vast repair bill should be enough threat

To Simon - i'm on mobile and can't quote with sanity intact - i know and I mostly reside away from the action and do just fine but the pressure is there and it hinders movement in silly ways. High security must mean that. The situation must be considered for newer and less skilled players though - how steep is steep enough? By the numbers we seem past that point

 

[DCLXVI your God]

You mean Elite Feet?

Eventually, maybe walking will give an Elite too?

 

[Flavourless]

Got to pick you up on your language a bit here.. 'consensual', 'victims'.. See what you did there? I've seen this quite a bit. Grief? Hop on a plane to Syria and watch your loved ones get blown to little pieces, thats grief...

Good grief (pun intended)
You demean peoples' valid thoughts about how they want to play a game by comparing the situation to a real world catastrophe, but get all emotional about what you deem as cheating in the same game?

Try to be objective. In a world of war and suffering the idea that someone might cheat whilst playing a game is also utterly trivial.

Your analogy is disingenuous, and you know it.

The primary cause of combat logging is players with no social empathy.
If you want to be mindless thug, it should come as no surprise if you find yourself ostracized and avoided.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

How un earth are folks looking at actions re a computer game and using this warped language to describe it?

its all relative. calling someone a terrorist IN GAME for instance is valid as an ingame thing.

Sure, I may not think a person acting a terrorist/serial killer ingame is going to go all london underground bomber/Fred West on anyone in real life........ but, in the context of the game terrorist/serial killer is what they are.

until FD fix the issues of balance for the huge loss for victim, zero loss or risk for serial killer then CLing will never be fixed. In what sensible universe (of which ED was sold as having one) can one flounce around blowing up who ever they like without facing ANY genuine issues... and where they can clean their criminal record by getting an old banger and blowing it up?. Anyone who going into a cheaper ship to clear their bounty are just as culpable as a CLer imo as they are spoiling the game for bounty hunters, just as the CLer is spoiling the game for the serial killer or pirate.

even if FD get the balance right however, some will STILL CL. it is at that point that FD can address that issue imo.

until then, CLing will remain just one of the bag full of exploits which need to be fixed, but not just fix that one without fixing the others imo.

- - - Updated - - -

I bought it due to that type of marketing.

this is where i agree with you......... looking at some of the marketing videos, ED IS intimated to be a very different game that what was sold to me when i backed it. (though to be fair, even the launch video, which was the worst video FD ever made, never stated the ships in the video were human/ai.. neither did the horizons launch trailer, which, despite using ingame assets this time, and being genuine, to a point, was incredibly contrived and i am not sure how many people have experienced that level of play in game (last night my mate was trying to cover me in his ship, me in my SRV just like the trailer, and it was a real ballache and not like the trailer at all!..

it is no wonder we get these oil and water arguments........ as much as certain sections of the playerbase wind me up - as i am sure me and my ilk wind them up - ultimately most of the "blame" does lie with FD and their mixed messages, as well as their actions NOT matching their words much of the time.

 

[CMDR M Kozak]

This thread is not moving fast enough. I just f5'd twice into the same last comment.

 

[Oogie Boogie]

There are no save places in Open.

Except the Community Goal places, now and then the Engineer systems and at last but no least CMDR Nitek at Founders, the galaxy is a pretty safe place.

Coming back too topic. Way too many players exploit the lack of crime&punishment systems. I experienced it twice (ramming while docking), lost a lot, left open and didn't come back.

In RL this would be mean that if a crawling child is trying to walk someday and fall several times, even get some hurting bruises - it will never try to stand up again. To win or lose and even get killed on purpose or by accident is part of this game, especially in open.

 

[Ozram]

Blatantly not true.
PvP piracy may be, sure.
PvE piracy is actually quite profitable.

And consider that Elite is not a PvP game, so maybe that is...in fact not a problem? unfortunately many seem to forget this.
Good points otherwise though I most definitely agree as my own posts point out similar.

Back in the day when there was piracy at CGs (pretty much just gankers now as FD have secured their position through more than favourable mechanics like extreme engineering and soon Grom's sweet trap of joy and effectively total lack of consequences) it was actually kind of fun to interact with pirates. I remember getting caught out in my old Python and it was a fair exchange. Gave up some of my cargo and was allowed to carry on. It was full wing too, and organised. Good luck with that now. Just interdictions and murder or the attempt thereof. Good luck getting gud. It's the extreme engineering that's so Gud. That and the numbers game... for me, the last straw was NPCs without escape pods.
Seriously FD, give it a rest... or at least give us the option to block people out of our instances. It would work for all parties. Gankers can block loggers and everyone else who's sick of it can ignore gankers and then Open will be for everyone. Quickest fix to the whole issue until you can address crime and punishment in the game.
Seriously, all these get Gud statements are such a joke. They are in ships so engineered it makes no difference the skill of a player. There's no fighting that and forcing players out of open is lame and insulting and toxic... and so very well endorsed. It's lame.

 

[Charles Erika von Hackbeil]

Am I the only person who can see what the underlying cause of all this drama is? Am I mistaken?

No, I´m with you.

Except:

...or at least give us the option to block people out of our instances. It would work for all

I still think blocking would work. Because it´s the same bunch of players all the time. And if a Noob gets ganked by them it will be pretty easy to use the blocking function on the ganker. You shouldn´t have to read forums to learn that, it´s easy to fit into the game menu. Funny thing is, it´s already here, just lacking functionality. Within a month the gankers should be pretty isolated, damned to gank themselves.

 

[Eera]

who care combat logger ! Not happy ? go play solo, leave the game or pass your way !

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I am warning them, but they still are CLogging. What should i do then?

You're too slow. You need to combat log before they can! That will show them whose boss!

 

[Javert]

Did you actually read what the OP and his crew did and how they did it? Or did you ignore it and just knee jerk your way through the comments section?

They didn't even view the youtube footage ....

Sounds to me you need to obsess less with "separating pirates and ships" (so cheesy and lame btw), and focus more on the practices of your beloved devs. If they cant be bothered to be honest about issues that are important to portions of the playerbase, do you really feel that is acceptable for a game charging an annual rebuy for new content?

We covered this yesterday. None of the evidence presented by the OP showed that FD has specifically stated that they did view the youtube footage. You are assuming that their internal process requires them to view the youtube footage (in all cases even a first report).

Youtube footage will never provide a CL situation - it only shows a potentially suspicious disconnect. You would need multiple reports against the same account, preferably from multiple reporting parties, before it would even be worth viewing the videos etc.

Edit: I'm aware that since then FD said they messed up on these tickets, so it may be that they should have viewed it - but we don't know that for sure. Bottom line is that they did not say "We viewed the youtube footage" in their reply so they didn't lie.

 

[Knightshark]

In RL this would be mean that if a crawling child is trying to walk someday and fall several times, even get some hurting bruises - it will never try to stand up again. To win or lose and even get killed on purpose or by accident is part of this game, especially in open.

No, it would mean to deliberately take the route through the shady alley where you got mugged twice, instead of taking the alternative route. To "get killed on purpose or by accident" is not part of my game, not voluntarily at least.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Back in the day when there was piracy at CGs (pretty much just gankers now as FD have secured their position through more than favourable mechanics like extreme engineering and soon Grom's sweet trap of joy and effectively total lack of consequences) it was actually kind of fun to interact with pirates. I remember getting caught out in my old Python and it was a fair exchange. Gave up some of my cargo and was allowed to carry on. It was full wing too, and organised. Good luck with that now. Just interdictions and murder or the attempt thereof. Good luck getting gud. It's the extreme engineering that's so Gud. That and the numbers game... for me, the last straw was NPCs without escape pods.
Seriously FD, give it a rest... or at least give us the option to block people out of our instances. It would work for all parties. Gankers can block loggers and everyone else who's sick of it can ignore gankers and then Open will be for everyone. Quickest fix to the whole issue until you can address crime and punishment in the game.
Seriously, all these get Gud statements are such a joke. They are in ships so engineered it makes no difference the skill of a player. There's no fighting that and forcing players out of open is lame and insulting and toxic... and so very well endorsed. It's lame.

You might be onto something here.

I also remember when Code were pirating and it was good piracy. Yeah, there were rumours and fearmongering, but few complaints about CLing, and some good piracy experiences.

Then SDC came along, and with their activities, the fear factor went up. The more "events" they did, the more the fear grew, and with Code being less active, or perhaps just being overshadowed, people stopped assuming that an interdiction was a piracy and instead started assuming an interdiction was going to be a gank.

It would be highly ironic in the main reason so many people combat log these days is because of SDC's actions and reputation gained over the last year.

I'm sure some might point out there was combat logging before SDC were around, i'm sure there was. But the whole hysteria about combat logging only seemed to really take off after SDC's formation.

 

[xondk]

If Elite is not a PvP game then it ain't a PvE game either. Or you can say it is a PvP game aswell as a PvE game, unless you choose solo I suppose.

And of course it's an issue, if it wasn't I would want a refund because I bought it due to that type of marketing.

in a PvP game, game mechanics revolve around PvP, Elite's game mechanics revolve around everyone equally, there is absolutely nothing special about PvP to it, so it is not a PvP game, it is a game with PvP in it, sure, you 'can' do PvP, but that doesn't mean PvP has any significance other then for those that enjoy blowing up pixels on screen because they know they belong to a person rather then npc, and of course those that actually want to fight someone that can fight back and give them more of a challenge then npc's, but yeah, that's all the difference there is.
PvPing will not gain you anything that can't be gained when fighting npc's.

Is it a PvE game? in the sense that it is players versus environment? sure it is, I don't see how it is not, but usually it is used to distinguish between pvp and none pvp, which really isn't relevant in Elite.