Taiwan not Thailand
Analyzing required animals by Taxonomical group
Discussion #6: Canines, Apes, Suides, mongooses
What we have:
Canines:
Apes
Suids
Mongooses:
Explain what you think is still needed from the aforementioned groups, and give your reasoning as to why. Take into account that slots in the roster are not unlimited, so try to keep the discussion realistic.
What we have:
Canines:
- African wild dog
- Arctic fox
- Arctic wolf
- Dhole
- Dingo
- Fennec fox
- Maned wolf
- Red fox
- Timber wolf
Apes
- Bornean orangutan
- Bonobo
- Siamang
- Western chimpanzee
- Western lowland gorilla
Suids
- Common warthog
- North sulawesi babirusa
Mongooses:
- Meerkat
Explain what you think is still needed from the aforementioned groups, and give your reasoning as to why. Take into account that slots in the roster are not unlimited, so try to keep the discussion realistic.
Canines: I'm fine, but I wish they splitted the timber wolf into a northwestern wolf and a Eurasian grey wolf
Apes: I need the lar gibbon (that's an ape, right?). They are very common in zoos, look different enough from the siamang and they are smaller than all the Asian primates we have.
Moongoose: no need for more
Suides:
- wild boar is essential to me. It is very versatile (grassland, temperate and maybe taiga biomes + Europe, Asia and Africa) and we need a cold tolerant pig.
- a peccary would be much appreciated, probably the collared peccary, which adds both a South and North American pig with a lot of biomes too.
- the red river hog would nbe nice for its visual aspect, but for me is less needed than a cold pig since we already have two tropical pigs.
Canines
Alright, as much as I love more canines, honestly there isn't much to bring, and I think that we shouldn't get any more (I'm sorry, gray fox
). But, I'd split the timber wolf into proper subspecies.- Use current model and change to Northwestern wolf
- Bring in the Eurasian wolf
- No more... psst, Frontier, here are $15. Bring the gray fox
Alright, I just want 1 more gibbon. Any will do, but I like the white-cheeked gibbon best. Other apes, I'm fine.
- Any gibbon, white-cheeked is my choice
- No more other apes
Ok, this is a bit tricky. The 2 pigs we have are quite nice, but not enough. I'd add the red river hog and the wild boar, and that's it. Now, for pig-like animals, then obviously a peccary, and I'd choose the collared peccary. If we get a 2nd one, then the Chacoan.
- Wild boar - bring it
- Red river hog - bring it
- Collared peccary - bring it
- Chacoan peccary - not essential, but a good 2nd choice
See, I'm not entirely sure. Meerkats are in the game, and the Houston Zoo has the gray-banded mongoose, but how common are they? In my opinion, I'm ok
With the sheer number of canines we already have it will be hard to justify new species. However the bat-eared fox and the bush dog are animals that would put a smile on my face.(them being my favorite canids probably does play a factor. Edit: I forgot to mention the raccoon dog, which would be a great representative for north and east Asia. Golden jackal, black-backed jackal, coyote and grey fox might be a stretch but I would not disaprove their arrival. (I was making this section in a rush so I didn't talk about canines in full detail. Thank you @biggest_dreamer for reminding me that these doggos exist)
I’d argue that the great apes are completely and we do not need another species (sorry Sumatran orangutan.) For the gibbos however, the Lar gibbon is the most essential one. Northern white-cheeked gibbon is also appreciated but I doubt we’d be getting two more gibbons. Piliated, Moloch, piebald, buff-cheeked, and Mueller’s aren’t likely to make it and if any of them are then it would be a wild card.
For the pige I argue that two species isn’t enough to demonstrate the diversity of swine. The Visayan warty pig and red river hogs are iconic animals that, in my opinion should not be missed. The Eurasian boar is the species that will make Europe finally complete. While not necessary (and also farfetched) the bearded pig would be nice to have. We definitely NEED a peccary (ideally the collared peccary, but the Chacoan peccary also works)
Edit note: I did not see hte mongoose
I understand that we do not need five or six species of mongoose for this game to be great, but the meerkat being a sole representative for mongoose just feels... limited. As everyone may have mentioned the banded, dwarf, or yellow mongoose would be great additions. I could see only one of them being added but two of them would be great. Now for personal stretches, I would be more than glad to have marsh mongoose,white-tailed mongoose, slender mongoose, cusimanse, and an Asian species of mongoose. I won't be holding my breath for those though
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Canids: If I may nitpick, canines are the genus of especially doglike species, while what we're going for are canids, the family which includes foxes, wild dogs, and other assorted lovable weirdos. And I'm going to write a lot here, because I really like canids. So at this point, there really aren't any essential canids left, and I say that as someone whose most wanted is a canid. But there's also no denying that we've gotten a far more-than-proportionate number of canids, to the extent that we've already gotten multiple that would probably only be middlingly popular on today's meta wishlist if they weren't added when they were (dingo, dhole, arctic wolf), so I 100% do not expect the canid march to stop over the coming year. We've gotten canids in 7 out of 12 DLCs. They're going to keep coming, like it or not. 1 more would put us at 50% overall, 2 more would put us at 50% for 2023, but even 3 more doesn't seem completely outside the realm of possibility, all things considered.
So, that in mind, it seems more prudent to speculate on what they're going to be rather than what we actually need or whether we even need any more. Overall, I think the bush dog is the canid that adds the biggest bang to the current roster. South American and quite possibly objectively the most unique looking canid left to add? Sign me up. Plus there's the amusing anecdote that they were initially only known from fossils before being discovered to be alive. Not that that has any bearing on their in-game inclusion or anything, I just think it's a fun fact. Next up, naturally, I've got to mention my absolute favorite, the raccoon dog or tanuki. They're actually two distinct subspecies, with tanuki being another name for specifically the Japanese subspecies. Ultimately they're the same to me as far as inclusion goes. Realism would suggest that the mainland subspecies should get the nod (to my knowledge, it's likely the only one found in zoos outside of Japan), but I'm going to keep hoping for the tanuki specifically because a hypothetical Islands Animal Pack seems like either subspecies' best ticket in. Regardless, it would be very visually distinct as far as our remaining options go, add a bit of east Asian representation, and especially cap off Japan regardless of the subspecies chosen. If we get two more canids, I think these two are hands down the best route to take.
There's still plenty of other possibilities, of course. There's a handful that I consider to be probably just as likely as the bush dog and raccoon dog, even if they're less desirable. The coyote would continue Frontier's recent push for North American roadkill, and honestly do wonders for fleshing out native species collections, even if it's visually redundant with the gray wolf. The red wolf is also visually similar, but it at least tells a conservation story in the making. There are pushes from local legislature to go ahead and have it declared extinct in the wild, but the captive population is absolutely booming. I'm not clamoring for it, but I'd respect the hell out of the decision to include it. The gray fox is probably always going to be on the table, and would uniquely bring climbing to the table, but I'm not sure if another somewhat visually similar temperate fox is going to wind up being what gets the nod. If we do go for another fox, I think the bat-eared fox is hands down the way to go. Much more visually distinct from anything currently on the roster, and idk I just think they're a really fun species. Lastly I think a jackal bears mentioning, with the black-backed jackal being the one that checks the most boxes in terms of captive presence and visual uniqueness, but I think it would add little to the game compared to everything else I've mentioned aside from just giving us a jackal.
Then of course there's the whole prospect of untangling and possibly splitting the timber wolf into something more real, but I'm not really feeling typing out all the arguments there when I'm sure someone else will do it better and more convincingly. I could go either way on this one, personally.
Whew.
Apes: This is an easy one, thankfully. Give us the lar gibbon. Or nothing, either way. I'm not terribly fussed about it, but it does make sense to reuse one of the more unique rigs we've gotten lately, and it'd be nice to have gibbon options. I think really any gibbon that features a blonde coat would work here, but lars are the most popular and I assume most common one, so they make the most sense.
Suids: We need more, for sure. I feel like we should've gotten more by now though, because at this point I'm not sure how many I can justify cramming into potentially one year of DLC. The red river hog is the obvious frontrunner, and for good reason: fairly common, adds tropical African representation, and most importantly: absolutely visually striking. Easily a top 10 "need" species in my eyes. Second place would be the wild boar: common, iconic, perhaps one of the last best chances to get another native European species in the game. Following from that, I think the domestic pig (specifically, probably the kunekune or Vietnamese pot-bellied pig) also ought to be mentioned, again strictly because of the growing popularity of a possible petting zoo pack. They're not in my first tier of domestic picks, but hey, they are petting zoo mainstays. Lastly, I think the Visayan warty pig is worth bringing up, due to its critically endangered status, reasonable captive presence, and ability to slot into a hypothetical Islands Animal Pack as a unique ungulate choice. And to take that a step further, I just think they look kinda neat.
Gotta be pedantic again (sorry!): I'm sure this is where we're discussing peccaries too, even though they're just suines, the suborder that also contains suids. I hate being "that guy", but if we're discussing species taxonomically I feel like it's worthwhile to be clear and help spread some knowledge. I genuinely hope I'm coming across as helpful and not condescending. Regardless, either the collared peccary (common, low budget, represents both Americas) or the Chacoan peccary (endangered, strictly South American, slightly cooler looking?) work fine here and are very welcome. So that leaves us with no less than 3 piglikes that I think we really ought to have, but I'd be surprised if we got more than one. Red river hog > a peccary > wild boar is my priority order. I'd be happy with just the top two.
Mongooses: Unpopular opinion - we do need a second mongoose. If support does extend beyond 2023 I think they're practically mandatory, but even given what I predict our 2023 to look like (where they don't even make the cutoff for any hypothetical pack I could come up with) I could justify one sneaking in. They're just really common zoo species, and I'll never say no to small mammals. Honestly, I would've preferred mongoose 2 to hyena 2. The banded mongoose and common dwarf mongoose are easily the two most common species from my experience, but I was very surprised just now to find out that the yellow mongoose is comparably common in Europe. I most prefer the looks of the yellow mongoose, but no real preference overall.
Sorry for this absolute wall of text, I just kinda started going and didn't stop with this one.
So, that in mind, it seems more prudent to speculate on what they're going to be rather than what we actually need or whether we even need any more. Overall, I think the bush dog is the canid that adds the biggest bang to the current roster. South American and quite possibly objectively the most unique looking canid left to add? Sign me up. Plus there's the amusing anecdote that they were initially only known from fossils before being discovered to be alive. Not that that has any bearing on their in-game inclusion or anything, I just think it's a fun fact. Next up, naturally, I've got to mention my absolute favorite, the raccoon dog or tanuki. They're actually two distinct subspecies, with tanuki being another name for specifically the Japanese subspecies. Ultimately they're the same to me as far as inclusion goes. Realism would suggest that the mainland subspecies should get the nod (to my knowledge, it's likely the only one found in zoos outside of Japan), but I'm going to keep hoping for the tanuki specifically because a hypothetical Islands Animal Pack seems like either subspecies' best ticket in. Regardless, it would be very visually distinct as far as our remaining options go, add a bit of east Asian representation, and especially cap off Japan regardless of the subspecies chosen. If we get two more canids, I think these two are hands down the best route to take.
There's still plenty of other possibilities, of course. There's a handful that I consider to be probably just as likely as the bush dog and raccoon dog, even if they're less desirable. The coyote would continue Frontier's recent push for North American roadkill, and honestly do wonders for fleshing out native species collections, even if it's visually redundant with the gray wolf. The red wolf is also visually similar, but it at least tells a conservation story in the making. There are pushes from local legislature to go ahead and have it declared extinct in the wild, but the captive population is absolutely booming. I'm not clamoring for it, but I'd respect the hell out of the decision to include it. The gray fox is probably always going to be on the table, and would uniquely bring climbing to the table, but I'm not sure if another somewhat visually similar temperate fox is going to wind up being what gets the nod. If we do go for another fox, I think the bat-eared fox is hands down the way to go. Much more visually distinct from anything currently on the roster, and idk I just think they're a really fun species. Lastly I think a jackal bears mentioning, with the black-backed jackal being the one that checks the most boxes in terms of captive presence and visual uniqueness, but I think it would add little to the game compared to everything else I've mentioned aside from just giving us a jackal.
Then of course there's the whole prospect of untangling and possibly splitting the timber wolf into something more real, but I'm not really feeling typing out all the arguments there when I'm sure someone else will do it better and more convincingly. I could go either way on this one, personally.
Whew.
Apes: This is an easy one, thankfully. Give us the lar gibbon. Or nothing, either way. I'm not terribly fussed about it, but it does make sense to reuse one of the more unique rigs we've gotten lately, and it'd be nice to have gibbon options. I think really any gibbon that features a blonde coat would work here, but lars are the most popular and I assume most common one, so they make the most sense.
Suids: We need more, for sure. I feel like we should've gotten more by now though, because at this point I'm not sure how many I can justify cramming into potentially one year of DLC. The red river hog is the obvious frontrunner, and for good reason: fairly common, adds tropical African representation, and most importantly: absolutely visually striking. Easily a top 10 "need" species in my eyes. Second place would be the wild boar: common, iconic, perhaps one of the last best chances to get another native European species in the game. Following from that, I think the domestic pig (specifically, probably the kunekune or Vietnamese pot-bellied pig) also ought to be mentioned, again strictly because of the growing popularity of a possible petting zoo pack. They're not in my first tier of domestic picks, but hey, they are petting zoo mainstays. Lastly, I think the Visayan warty pig is worth bringing up, due to its critically endangered status, reasonable captive presence, and ability to slot into a hypothetical Islands Animal Pack as a unique ungulate choice. And to take that a step further, I just think they look kinda neat.
Gotta be pedantic again (sorry!): I'm sure this is where we're discussing peccaries too, even though they're just suines, the suborder that also contains suids. I hate being "that guy", but if we're discussing species taxonomically I feel like it's worthwhile to be clear and help spread some knowledge. I genuinely hope I'm coming across as helpful and not condescending. Regardless, either the collared peccary (common, low budget, represents both Americas) or the Chacoan peccary (endangered, strictly South American, slightly cooler looking?) work fine here and are very welcome. So that leaves us with no less than 3 piglikes that I think we really ought to have, but I'd be surprised if we got more than one. Red river hog > a peccary > wild boar is my priority order. I'd be happy with just the top two.
Mongooses: Unpopular opinion - we do need a second mongoose. If support does extend beyond 2023 I think they're practically mandatory, but even given what I predict our 2023 to look like (where they don't even make the cutoff for any hypothetical pack I could come up with) I could justify one sneaking in. They're just really common zoo species, and I'll never say no to small mammals. Honestly, I would've preferred mongoose 2 to hyena 2. The banded mongoose and common dwarf mongoose are easily the two most common species from my experience, but I was very surprised just now to find out that the yellow mongoose is comparably common in Europe. I most prefer the looks of the yellow mongoose, but no real preference overall.
Sorry for this absolute wall of text, I just kinda started going and didn't stop with this one.
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I am sorry but... why? This is especially a confusing choice when you have previously suggested that the FBB be made into a generic Asiatic black bear. Just like the European brown bear I am sure that most players would not be able to distinguish the subspecies of grey wolf in real life. I understand that making the timber wolf into a generic grey wolf might be out of question with the arctic wolf, but that definitely does not justify a third grey wolf sub.
In the case of the FBB, we just have the one species. Why make it extremely niche when Asian black bear would've been perfect? Same goes for HBB...
In the case of the wolf, you kinda answered the question. I would've been ok, except that the base game wolf is confusing as it's kinda obvious it's supposed to be North American. To further this point, we received the Arctic wolf into the game and the dingo, which, depending on your POV, could be considered a gray wolf subspecies.
So, in my mind it's weird to have the base species and them specific subspecies. We might as well have it consistent and just divide the NORTH AMERICAN gray wolf into 2 species.
I know that this mindset is controversial, but that's just how I feel about it. It's kinda a pet peeve of mine and I actually didn't like it in Zoo Tycoon when they had gray wolf, Mexican gray wolf, Arctic wolf...
That's actually a great choice. I've never seen one, though, but I'd think that they'd be quite cool and be semi-aquatic...
In this case, I'd just go with raccoon dog species and combine the 2 subspecies...
Oddly enough, I pass on the coyote...
I'd love this, but it's kinda controversial, because people say that it's its own species, but others say it's only a hybrid...
It's always on the table. ALWAYS. And, it's distinct enough from the foxes in-game except for the cross fox and silver fox (plus, it's a lot smaller)
Never seen one of these, but if this brings another canine from Africa, then by all means, yeah
@yoav_r I forgot to type in my takes for the mongoose so unless you are rerevieving the replies I want to let you know that I editted my post.
Okay I understand that lumping or making the animal generic is out of the question. But I do not understand why we would need the Eurasian wolf?
I could personally live without. I just mentioned it for our European players so that we aren't taking anything away from them. In my mind, if the gray/timber wolf was renamed to a North American subspecies, then it's important that European players get something in return for essentially taking it away.
Am I making sense?
I should've mentioned, they're exceptionally rare in the US. They're just in four collections right now, and that number is shrinking (thankfully the European population is much larger and more stable). I'm not sure how far you are from San Antonio or Little Rock (iirc you're in Texas?), but I'd strongly encourage you to go check them out if the opportunity ever presents itself. They're such amazingly dopey little critters, I've never seen anything else remotely like them. Just stubby and dopey. I'm so thankful I got to see them several times while Zoo Atlanta had them throughout the 2010s. That's also where I saw raccoon dogs (and where my avatar is from), but now they're only kept by Oklahoma City within the US. Again, much better off in Europe and Asia, so I don't think this uncommonness should have much bearing on either of their inclusions in the game, thankfully. Still, Atlanta lost both species around the same time, and they were hands down my two favorites in the zoo, so it's been a bit of a bummer going back since.
In the process of typing this post, I found out my wife has a conference in San Antonio next year. Maybe I'll get one last chance to see bush dogs yet
Oh, I agree. I'd probably be more agreeable to it than most people here would if we did get it, but I would still strongly prefer to not see it at this point. I just see it as a move I could see Frontier making moreso than anything I actually want.
Neither have I, and I should've clairified: jackals in general don't seem to be very common in captivity, at least not in AZA/EAZA. But anecdotally, and also based on anecdotes I've heard from others, this does strike me as the most common one. At the very least, it's much more unique looking than the golden jackal.
Because the timberwolf, although is confusing and its name is translated wrong in several languages (not all of us play the game in English), currently covers North America, Europe and Asia. If they changed it into a North Amercian wolf, then European and Asian players would loose an animal. If they changed the timberwolf into an Eurasian wolf, then American players would loose an animal. So to avoid this situation, the ideal solution would be split the timberwolf into the two subspecies. It shouldn't take much work since animations would be the same, just would need some minort changes to the model. This should be part of an update, not taking any slot of a new animal in a new DLC.
3 hour drive. Hmm, imma convince my family. San Antonio is near New Braunfels, which is a great place to go swimming during the summer. So, maybe I can combine trips.
Is there any news on if the bush dogs will still be there? Or if they're gonna be traded out soon?
You explained it better than I did
I'm fine with the timber wolf as is. The rest of the wolf subspecies can be modded.
I adore canids so I still need a coyote, bush dog, raccoon dog, and black-backed jackal. Sincere apologies to those who think we have enough canids! (Gray fox would also be nice but not necessary.)
I really want a striking yellow mongoose to join the meerkat.
Piggish critters... the red river hog, wild boar, and collared peccary feel like necessities.
I don't need a gibbon, but it would be ok to get the Lar or white-cheeked.
I really want a striking yellow mongoose to join the meerkat.
Piggish critters... the red river hog, wild boar, and collared peccary feel like necessities.
I don't need a gibbon, but it would be ok to get the Lar or white-cheeked.
You obviously don't play the game in Spanish
. But there are other threads to discuss the wolf issue, I don't want to derail theis interesting thread I can't foresee them being proactively removed, but they only have a pair of brothers. I can't find anything that suggests how old they are, but the species has a life expectancy of 10 years in captivity, so there's a decent possibility they're already up there in years. Obviously if one dies the other is bound to follow, and there haven't been any births in the US in several years. I'm going to prod for some more info over on Zoo Chat, because now I'm very invested over whether or not they might still be around by the time I get a chance to visit next year.
Canines: Now that we have the Maned Wolf, we're more or less perfect on canines. The only one I want to see is the Tanuki because of it's unique appearance, but other than that, our canine roster is really good.
Apes: Honestly, the only ape I think we could use is the Lar Gibbon, because it's different enough from the Siamang while still using the same rig, but if we get that, our ape roster will be perfect.
Suids: The Red River Hog and Collared Peccary are the ones I want most, and there's not any others I particularly want.
Mongooses: I'll be honest, there's no mongooses that I really want. I guess one like the Banded Mongoose or the Stripe-Necked Mongoose would be fine, but I'm just not feeling the need for another mongoose.
Well this is pretty much where i stand as well lol Except for the mongooses. I prefer to get the banded mongoose or the indian mongoose.
And for me the canids are not strictly "necessary" but if new species are going to come to the game those 4 are the ones i will prefer (the black backed jackal being number 1). And i prefered the gray fox over the coyote (with climbing animations behaviour of course).
Collared peccary and red river hog are waaay more importante to me than the wild boar, but i agree those three are the "pigs" needed to complete this group of animals.