Arctic Animal Issues

[VetGirl330]

The more time that I spend on this forum the clearer it becomes that the general public lacks any understanding of basic taxonomy. Every living thing in the world be it plant, animal, or bacteria is known to the scientific community worldwide by a unique binominal nomenclature or scientific name, listed by Genus species. If a subspecies is designated it is listed after the species, e.g. Canis lupus ssp. lupus. This system dates all the way back to Carl Linnaeus in 1735. Does no one remember King Philip Came Over For Green Spaghetti, or some other equally ridiculous mnemonic from 3rd grade [Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species]? This is not the place for a basic biology lesson but here is some suggested reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_nomenclature
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_(biology)
https://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/difference-species-subspecies/

I'm quite happy to see them add in more subspecies (malayan tapir, ruffed lemurs, black/white rhinos, Grévy's zebra, Rothschild's/masai giraffe, etc), so long as they're added along with some new animal species.

With the possible exception of the giraffes not a single animal you named is a subspecies. I do not think that anyone, certainly not myself, is arguing against the inclusion of multiple species from the same family or genera. For example we already have the Lion (Panthera leo) and the Tiger (Panthera tigris), and it would be ridiculous for a zoo game not to have both. Or how about bears, we have the Polar bear (Ursus maritimus), Brown bear (Ursus arctos), and Asiatic Black bear (Ursus thibetanus).
There are five species of tapir. We currently have the Baird's tapir (Tapirus bairdii). The Malayan tapir (Tapirus indicus) would be a great inclusion and provide a well-rounded representation of this family in our zoos.
Within the superfamily Lemuroidea there are over 100 different species, many of which are critically endangered and have never been held in captivity. Currently represented in Planet Zoo are the Ring-tailed lemur (Lemur catta) and Red ruffed Lemur (Varecia rubra). I think the separate SPECIES the Black-and-White ruffed lemur (Varecia variegata) would also be a great addition, and I would like to see Coquerel's sifaka (Propithecus coquereli). I wouldn't mind even more lemur species, but think we are unlikely to see them.
I expect to see both SPECIES of African rhinoceros, Black rhino (Diceros bicornis) and White rhino (Ceratotherium simum), in the game at some point. As you see these are not only unique species, but actually in separate genera, sharing only the same family. Both are iconic savanna animals that are easily visually distinguishable and have unique ecologic niches and behaviors. With the inclusion of these two animals, plus the Indian rhino (Rhinoceros unicornis) already in the game, I do not think we need anymore rhinoceros species.
Grevy's Zebra (Equus grevyi) is separate species from the Plains Zebra (Equus quagga) and should be included not only because it is also common in zoos, but has a much different narrowing striping pattern.
The taxonomic classification of giraffes is currently under contention, but at a minimum it appears there is consensus that the Reticulated giraffe and Masai giraffe are separate species.

 

[Kai]

I do not think that anyone, certainly not myself, is arguing against the inclusion of multiple species from the same family or genera.

Ok, putting aside the rest of your semi-hostile lecture:

People will argue against it (though people complain about pretty much anything). Just to pick something off that list, I guarantee if they add another species of zebra, there will be criticism about them adding another zebra (rather than the African wild donkey or Przewalski's horse). It being a separate species of zebra won't matter one jot.

The arctic wolf got a bad reception because it looks too similar to the other wolf (not because it's a subspecies); I'd be willing to bet we'd see a similar sentiment if they had added something like an Ethiopian wolf or coyote. Hell, even something like a maned wolf would probably still get complaints.

 

[Kiwolf]

Wrong.The Gray Wolf Canis lupus is not a reference to a lot of subspecies,ALL subspecies are part of that species.




Wrong.The Gray wolf has no other name,the Timber Wolf is a subspecies.Either Canis lupus occidentalis or Canis lupus lycaon.


Wrong.The Northwestern Gray Wolf (This includes the so called Timber Wolves) were believed to be a seperate species,just like the Red Wolf,but nowadays they are all considered to be subspecies of thr Gray Wolf Canis lupus.
The Family is Canidae,the Genus is Canis and the whole wolf species is Canis lupus.



You should really try to understand the difference between a whole species and a subspecies,because that's the point where you are mixing things up.
I am an ethologist and zoologist,specialized in mammals and now further specializing into the whole Canidae Family,in which the Canis lupus plays a huge role.I'm currently even slowly preparing to write my own book and might dedicate a special part of the book to the Ethiopian Wolf Canis simensis if I can manage to stay a bit longer and study them in Ethiopia.

Why not give me some source of information .. all you tell me is i am wrong.. But i have given three different sources that back up what i am telling you..

 

[markun]

There's several issues with the Arctic animals that I hope get fixed soon.
1. Taxonomy

Here's the Zoopedia page for the Arctic wolf. Notice that the Latin name is Canus lupus arctos (a subspecies of grey wolf).

Here's the Zoopedia page for the timber wolf. Notice that the Latin name is Canis Lupus (referring to all grey wolves, including Arctic wolves!)
As you can see, this doesn't really make sense. Ideally, the timber wolf should be renamed to the Eurasian wolf (Canis lupus lupus) to help differentiate the two animals.

2. Locations

It should be obvious here, but as you can see this sign is saying that Arctic wolves live in Antarctica. For an education board, it's not great that it's displaying fake facts. This applies to the "education" boards for the reindeer and polar bear as well, and the reindeer have things worse off.

Reindeer are suffering a triple-whammy of errors. Not only are they listed as being found in Antarctica and being least concern instead of vulnerable, but the Zoopedia says one of their native continents is Russia. Planet Zoo developers, Russia is not a continent.

3. Continent Discrepancies

As you can see from these images, polar bears and Arctic wolves prefer foliage from the Arctic continent. However, there's no foliage that is in the Arctic continent (as there's no filter for the Arctic continent). This is really bad for people who like decorating their habitats with foliage that their animals will actually like. But wait...

In the habitat plant filter, there's filters for Arctic and Antarctic foliage, both of which don't exist. It seems like someone forgot to give those continent tags to some plants.

I implore that these errors issues get shared for a quick fix (perhaps in the new year).

It also has Denmark as one of the ‘regions’ where reindeer are found.

 

[Kiwolf]

The arctic wolf got a bad reception because it looks too similar to the other wolf (not because it's a subspecies); I'd be willing to bet we'd see a similar sentiment if they had added something like an Ethiopian wolf or coyote. Hell, even something like a maned wolf would probably still get complaints.

They got a bad reception, i agree.. But what most people don't understand is there is little between the subspecies of wolf that make is different..

 

[Mkau]

Why not give me some source of information .. all you tell me is i am wrong.. But i have given three different sources that back up what i am telling you..

Just in case you missed the last part of my post:
I am an ethologist and zoologist,specialized in mammals and now further specializing into the whole Canidae Family,in which the Canis lupus plays a huge role.I'm currently even slowly preparing to write my own book and might dedicate a special part of the book to the Ethiopian Wolf Canis simensis if I can manage to stay a bit longer and study them in Ethiopia.

You have given me three sources with misinformation.Another small example comes into my mind: A lot of internet sources and I really mean A LOT claim leucistic animals as Albinos.But are they Albinos?No,they are not,because Leucism is a totally different mutation.Just because a lot of sources say something,it doesn't need to be true.
The only reliable source I can give you now is myself and my years of experience and studying,because I have limited internet access and most of my scientific paper-work,textbooks and lectures are not with me while I'm travelling.
But there is really no point in explaining something to you if you are too stubborn,even after multiple people tried to explain it to you.

 

[Crea_TivELA]

Give the gentlemen their desired latin name for the timber wolf and change the maps according to the regions ... both current wolves in the game overlap in some places in their living space and I also think that the map needs to be changed accordingly to that.

I am against renaming him to euresian wolf, especially since in this case a lot more would have to be adapted than just the name ... just to name a few thoughts on that: other preferred plants with a higher density (many plants would have to be crossed out of the favored plants), different preferred climate and shorter, differently colored fur (more brown less grey) would be necessary here - faces need to be slightly tapered... .

I think it would be a lot of work for Frontier to change it that way and it's not necessary since they can put a euresian wolf in the game later, maybe even just threw a update during the life period of the game someday. The time they would need to change it right would be better invested into other unique animals with complete other models.

A change of the card with the given Latin name for the timber wolf is sufficient and can be done in a shorter while.

I'm in favor of more species for wolves, especially since this is one of the larger animals in Europe and is therefore of great importance in this region. There are beautiful ones on other continents... coyotes or dholes would be great to have too. At the point of other continents I think they are much more diverse and I would very much like to see other unique animal models such as the (arctic?) foxes, the kangaroo, the koala, the quokka et cetera.

Time should really be invested to do this!

 

[Villa11]

No read what i posted above.. Those are the actual scientific names they go under.. WWF is one of the world leading conservation programs.. Doubt they would get their scientific information wrong.

WWF is not the best go to for naming conventions, I'm not saying its wrong, just saying that as a source EOL (encyclopedia of life) , IUCN or Mammal species of the world are more creditable sources. The scientific names for the wolf (as a whole species) and the arctic wolf, are correct. The argument is about the English name that the game uses to refer to the whole species, not the scientific name it uses; as 'Timber wolf' is generally used to refer to specific subspecies and not to the species as a whole.

I think it would be a lot of work for Frontier to change it that way and it's not necessary since they can put a euresian wolf in the game later, maybe even just threw a update during the life period of the game someday. The time they would need to change it right would be better invested into other unique animals with complete other models.

A change of the card with the given Latin name for the timber wolf is sufficient and can be done in a shorter while.

Honestly, just renaming the in-game wolf to 'grey wolf' or simply 'wolf' would probably be the best fix here.
I do agree that it is a bit odd to have both the species as a whole and one subspecies in-game, but a lot of people would complain if the game lacked wolf from North America and Europe and Asia. That is likely why they went with the species as a whole in the first place, instead of needing a multitude of subspecies to cover every continent.

I would prefer more different canid species over more wolf (Canis lupus) subspecies for now. (unless it's the dingo in an Australian dlc)

 

[Kai]

They got a bad reception, i agree.. But what most people don't understand is there is little between the subspecies of wolf that make is different..

Originally I was also annoyed with them adding something so similar, but after seeing the models side by side, I think they look different enough to be a nice addition to the game. I still wish we'd got an arctic fox (or musk ox) instead of another wolf, but I can understand that they probably just didn't have the time to get it made before Christmas. It's a decent compromise.

Spoiler: Model Comparison

I all honesty, I'm more fed up with them adding so many bears before other animals (and not even my two favourites, the sun bear or spectacled bear). That said, I understand they're popular, so I would never suggest that they shouldn't have added the polar bear. We all have different preferences, and I'm sure a lot of people do enjoy the addition of the arctic wolf.

I'd be fine with them updating the timber wolf to Canis lupus occidentalis if it makes people happier (they can always add the Eurasian wolf at a later date). I wouldn't be against renaming it as a grey wolf either (what it was named in ZT2). It should be a quick/easy change in comparison to adding more coat variations (so our wolf packs don't look like a group of clones).

 

[Crea_TivELA]

WWF is not the best go to for naming conventions, I'm not saying its wrong, just saying that as a source EOL (encyclopedia of life) , IUCN or Mammal species of the world are more creditable sources. The scientific names for the wolf (as a whole species) and the arctic wolf, are correct. The argument is about the English name that the game uses to refer to the whole species, not the scientific name it uses; as 'Timber wolf' is generally used to refer to specific subspecies and not to the species as a whole.



Honestly, just renaming the in-game wolf to 'grey wolf' or simply 'wolf' would probably be the best fix here.
I do agree that it is a bit odd to have both the species as a whole and one subspecies in-game, but a lot of people would complain if the game lacked wolf from North America and Europe and Asia. That is likely why they went with the species as a whole in the first place, instead of needing a multitude of subspecies to cover every continent.

I would prefer more different canid species over more wolf (Canis lupus) subspecies for now. (unless it's the dingo in an Australian dlc)

It's just "wolf" in the german translation, but I think this only is more confusing, since we have the arctic wolf as specific type. So the "Alrounder" would be needed to be titled more specific too ( Canis lupus occidentalis or canis lupus lycaon ) with some further changes on Zoopedia. I really think there will be more wolf types since they already put the arctic wolf in the game - it's really okay and important for some continents which have lack of animals like you said too.
The change they need to make on the timber wolf, should be an easy small one, so they can go on and start with complete new animal models. To leave it like it is, is really confusing now for understandable reasons, to name it just wolf too, but the change should be small as possible so they aren't losing much time on that point.

 

[Mkau]

Edit: I'm no wolf expert, but it seems the current sizes also represent the nortwestern wolf better? Seems like that's what they have intended when making it.

Seems like they wanted it to be either Canis lupus lycaon or Canis lupus occidentalis,but then decided to change it,because they had no iconic european animal.The thing is that they forgot about the further consequences after doing so.
Or maybe we are all wrong and they really intended to make a generic gray wolf,but are also misinformed about taxonomy and the difference between species and subspecies.

 

[Arrakai]

Please, Please change the foliage requirement for the arctic animals! for example the arctic wolf. When you look at the zoopedia it says: "Continent: North America". But when you look at the actual animal, it changes to "Continent: Arctic", wich means no foliage whatsoever works...

 

[markun]

Animals should be happy with any foliage whatsoever. A wolf doesn’t care where a tree is from.

 

[Kai]

Animals should be happy with any foliage whatsoever. A wolf doesn’t care where a tree is from.

Still hoping they remove the continental plant restrictions for the animals - it's just unrealistic for an animal to only accept tropical foliage in a temperate/tundra zoo (and vice versa).

As you say trees are trees, and ground cover is ground cover - there should be no issue swapping in biome compatable species unless they're poisonous.

 

[Mkau]

Still hoping they remove the continental plant restrictions for the animals - it's just unrealistic for an animal to only accept tropical foliage in a temperate/tundra zoo (and vice versa).

As you say trees are trees, and ground cover is ground cover - there should be no issue swapping in biome compatable species unless they're poisonous.

Totally agree with both of you.I understand that it's meant to be gameplay mechanic,but that one bothered me always the most - and yes,you can turn animal happiness off in sandbox mode,but you can't in franchise,challenge and career mode.Animals don't care at all what type of tree is giving them some shade,what kind of tree they are marking on etc. and I want to be able to build realistic zoos in e.g. a temperate zone and you won't see any pure tropical plants in an outside enclosure in reallife.

 

[Jacob1989]

I think removing continent plant restrictions would take a big chunk out of gameplay. There will be no point to have continent tags anymore. However what could be done is, have biome restrictions have a greater effect on animal happiness/welfare over continent restrictions. It is the exact opposite right now, which doesn't make much sense.

 

[Villa11]

The change they need to make on the timber wolf, should be an easy small one

They would have to update the zoopedia to show the actual Timber wolf range, as well as remove the Asia and Europe tags from the plant list (to be realistic) which I assume people will complain about as it will cause problems in already existing habitats.
Simply changing all instances of the word "Timber wolf" to "Grey wolf" will not cause that problem.
And that's why I assume its easier to choose the latter option.

On the topic of the zoopedia, reindeer have North America in their continent list, but it is not shown on the map. It would also be nice to have more coat variants for them.

 

[Environmentalist]

They would have to update the zoopedia to show the actual Timber wolf range, as well as remove the Asia and Europe tags from the plant list (to be realistic) which I assume people will complain about as it will cause problems in already existing habitats.
Simply changing all instances of the word "Timber wolf" to "Grey wolf" will not cause that problem.
And that's why I assume its easier to choose the latter option.

On the topic of the zoopedia, reindeer have North America in their continent list, but it is not shown on the map. It would also be nice to have more coat variants for them.

You can't balance a game based on current save files, that's very selfish. People who have used the wrong items gotta cope with the change. If there's a wrong biome or continent, it should be fixed. For instance I never use plants from dubious biomes or continents knowing they can be fixed down the line.

 

[VioletGrey]

Wrong.The Gray Wolf Canis lupus is not a reference to a lot of subspecies,ALL subspecies are part of that species.

It's really obvious that that's what Kiwolf meant.

 

[Cocolori]

Gotta say, whilst I do find taxonomy interesting and I get that it is an imperfect system designed to convey a simplified version of reality, there's a point at which it always seems to descend into arguments. After all, species and subspecies are constantly changing - at what point might we say the arctic wolf is no longer a subspecies but a separate species? Problem with taxonomy is that once it has been decided it becomes hard to change it. In the world of the anthropecene where barriers to interbreeding are as likely to be man made as natural it starts to get difficult.