PvP ATR wont save you

[Riverside]

My Corvette has a 140 million CR bounty on it in the Beta.

I could probably have started it by accident and then allowed it to snowball...afterall, in the current system I've had 200cr bounties that ended up in the six figures after shooting down wing after wing after wing of CMDR PvE bounty hunters having their first jabs at PvP.

People see WANTED and they get all sly and greedy: https://youtu.be/4B6aIKCBmag?t=5750

Dastardly bounty hunters trying to sucker punch my ship like I forgot the shield generator by accident!

So you knew what your were getting yourself into and my proposal would put you in a dilemma earlier into the cycle than before, I see this as a good thing. If you rob a bank & get caught there is one level of punishment. If while trying to escape you kill a bunch of vigilantes trying to stop you you get a more severe punishment.

Make a small 'mistake', pay off the bounty quickly & stay out of trouble 'till the heat dies down for an easy life. Or go out in a blaze of glory. Sticking around killing wave after wave of attackers really shouldn't be a thing you can do for long without it coming back to bite you.

 

[Morbad]

So you knew what your were getting yourself into and my proposal would put you in a dilemma earlier into the cycle than before, I see this as a good thing. If you rob a bank & get caught there is one level of punishment. If while trying to escape you kill a bunch of vigilantes trying to stop you you get a more severe punishment.

Make a small 'mistake', pay off the bounty quickly & stay out of trouble 'till the heat dies down for an easy life. Or go out in a blaze of glory. Sticking around killing wave after wave of attackers really shouldn't be a thing you can do for long without it coming back to bite you.

Oh I mostly agree, I was just pointing out that even small infractions can compound into massive bounties in either system without really having to do anything particularly villainous.

 

[sovapid]

In Open play, you know you are going to lose, you run if you have any brains.

I (almost) never run from a fight. And I die a lot. Was doing some fun 6 or 7 v 1's last weekend where I was the aggressor (and the 1).

[video=youtube;6hOIEkgJUqk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hOIEkgJUqk[/video]

 

[Riverside]

Oh I mostly agree, I was just pointing out that even small infractions can compound into massive bounties in either system without really having to do anything particularly villainous.

So you still think it's overkill. Attaching it to the 2MCr bounty is just from me reading about the C&P stuff in the beta forum, I lack the direct experience you and others here have.

I've slept on it & given it a bit of thought, I still like the idea as a final curtain call for C&P, to make ship destruction become a ticking timer with an inevitable end (to close the current C&P loopholes)

If we take this concept of being denied repair & rearm timebomb at what point do you think it would be reasonable to apply it? At notoriety level 10? something else?

ALGOMATIC started this thread to raise an issue of a loophole in C&P, I do think it should be closed, and I think this would be a way to close it that provides challenging gameplay rather than just insta-kill or frustratingly persistent NPCs. Every time you are attacked & your shields go down your power plant takes some damage, the ticking timer gets closer to midnight & the pressure increases. You either pay of the (presumably huge) fee, or you see how long you can last 'till your ship is destroyed.

 

[Arguendo]

I know you're making a joke, but I think it bears mentioning that among PvPers targeting other PvPers it's not so much cheating as it is "wimping out." Personally, I think non-combat types who have violence thrust upon them are mandated to wake out

Yeah, it's a joke, as someone said "high waking in pvp is cheating" full stop, a while back. Then that someone back-pedalled and gave all sorts of caveats

This whole high-waking vs low-waking has turned pathetic imo. Low-waking is worn as a badge of honour and high-waking used to shame others. It's way too juvenile for my tastes, but to each their own.
In a 1v1, or an arranged fight between wings with some agreed upon standards, ofcourse there is no high-waking. In "organic" PvP however, I couldn't care less if anyone high- or low-wakes. They've left the instance, which is the whole idea to begin with.

 

[Morbad]

I've slept on it & given it a bit of thought, I still like the idea as a final curtain call for C&P, to make ship destruction become a ticking timer with an inevitable end (to close the current C&P loopholes)

Welcomes can be overstayed, alliances can shift, political pressure can build, but there should generally always be someplace one can retreat to, where the authorities haven't heard of, or do not care, who you are...or actively support the atrocities one has inflicted upon their enemies.

Unless you go out of your way to alienate everyone, I don't think there should be any inevitable "curtain call"...the end comes when you screw up and someone puts you down.

 

[NeilF]

I would put it in DD but it would end up here anyway.

Regarding PvP ship vs gank ship: a pvp ship in 3.0 cannot commit crimes because it will be locked out of the star system services. A 2D fsd wont get you far.

If you came to gank you will now equip a fuel scoop, A rated fsd etc, you are not min maxed for pvp any longer. You are now min maxed for committing crimes. Congrats fdev.

A ganker needs 2 ships, one clean for pvp and another one hot that runs away from anything non gankable to avoid an expensive rebuy while killing the sheep.

But ATR is only part of the puzzle... Surely Notoriety is the other?

ie: As that goes up so does your next rebuy? Hopefully at an alarming rate...


ps: I wouldn'y be surprised if FD have made it so the additional rebuy is not enough, or if notoriety simply decays so fast it's pointless?

 

[Riverside]

Welcomes can be overstayed, alliances can shift, political pressure can build, but there should generally always be someplace one can retreat to, where the authorities haven't heard of, or do not care, who you are...or actively support the atrocities one has inflicted upon their enemies.

Unless you go out of your way to alienate everyone, I don't think there should be any inevitable "curtain call"...the end comes when you screw up and someone puts you down.

This is the main obstacle to this being implemented, the believe-ability. You can escape the ticking time bomb by paying off your bounty/cleaning your hot ship so I don't see it as inevitable death, but it would be an inevitable conclusion (ie the crime spree ends with a punishment that cannot be escaped, only delayed).

If there is just one dock you can travel to (an extreme, non-zero scenario) you could escape, travel to that dock & return to begin the carnage again, rinse & repeat (or swap to a clean ship & do something else relatively consequence free). The only advantage is the quiet time between your escaping & returning. With more than one safe haven the quiet time is reduced so there is even less benefit to the C&P system. Traveling should't be a problem even with more persistent NPCs, you are not in an instance for more than a minute as you jump & scoop until you reach the distant safe haven.

NeilF, the increased rebuy only matters if the ship is destroyed, it doesn't really matter how big it gets or how long it stays if they just jump away.

 

[Arguendo]

If there is just one dock you can travel to (an extreme, non-zero scenario) you could escape, travel to that dock & return to begin the carnage again, rinse & repeat

With an adjustment in the NPC/ATR persistance, this can be curtailed without affecting Anarchy systems. Currently the biggest issue with ATR is their lack of persistance and the fact that they have a pretty braindead pre-programmed flight pattern (ie turning away when targeted instead of keeping up the pressure, and waking out even though the threat is still there).
If those two things were fixed, a player wouldn't be able to come back to a system they are wanted in and repeat the carnage. Only moving to a clean ship, or paying off their bounty via IF or a rebuy, would make it possible to return to the system unopposed.

 

[jasonbarron]

So you still think it's overkill. Attaching it to the 2MCr bounty is just from me reading about the C&P stuff in the beta forum, I lack the direct experience you and others here have.

I've slept on it & given it a bit of thought, I still like the idea as a final curtain call for C&P, to make ship destruction become a ticking timer with an inevitable end (to close the current C&P loopholes)

If we take this concept of being denied repair & rearm timebomb at what point do you think it would be reasonable to apply it? At notoriety level 10? something else?

ALGOMATIC started this thread to raise an issue of a loophole in C&P, I do think it should be closed, and I think this would be a way to close it that provides challenging gameplay rather than just insta-kill or frustratingly persistent NPCs. Every time you are attacked & your shields go down your power plant takes some damage, the ticking timer gets closer to midnight & the pressure increases. You either pay of the (presumably huge) fee, or you see how long you can last 'till your ship is destroyed.

That's a pretty good idea, Riverside. I don't think it goes far enough, though, to make non criminal players safe. To truly close the loop hole you are all so concerned with, players who are terminated via the timer should have their accounts frozen and be forced to play 1000 hours of NMS before having them reactivated.

That'll teach 'em!

 

[NeilF]

So you still think it's overkill. Attaching it to the 2MCr bounty is just from me reading about the C&P stuff in the beta forum, I lack the direct experience you and others here have.

I've slept on it & given it a bit of thought, I still like the idea as a final curtain call for C&P, to make ship destruction become a ticking timer with an inevitable end (to close the current C&P loopholes)

If we take this concept of being denied repair & rearm timebomb at what point do you think it would be reasonable to apply it? At notoriety level 10? something else?

ALGOMATIC started this thread to raise an issue of a loophole in C&P, I do think it should be closed, and I think this would be a way to close it that provides challenging gameplay rather than just insta-kill or frustratingly persistent NPCs. Every time you are attacked & your shields go down your power plant takes some damage, the ticking timer gets closer to midnight & the pressure increases. You either pay of the (presumably huge) fee, or you see how long you can last 'till your ship is destroyed.

I thought this was the overall premise?

So you murder/illegally destroy CMDRs/NPCs and your notoriety goes up as does your rebuy.

I thought the premise was if you continued on with this behaviour as somepoint the ATR would be so frequent (even if you're not in a hot ship) you'd end up dying, therefore at long last applying that super paintful rebuy that's the major way of penalising you and reining in ganking?


Now, what I don't pretend to know is how the notoriety and rebuy goes up, and therefore how effective a deterrent it is? Does it even go up for NPC murder? Does it drop/decay over time anyway?

I've been trying to watch if people are posting information from the beta as regards this...

 

[Riverside]

With an adjustment in the NPC/ATR persistance, this can be curtailed without affecting Anarchy systems. Currently the biggest issue with ATR is their lack of persistance and the fact that they have a pretty braindead pre-programmed flight pattern (ie turning away when targeted instead of keeping up the pressure, and waking out even though the threat is still there).
If those two things were fixed, a player wouldn't be able to come back to a system they are wanted in and repeat the carnage. Only moving to a clean ship, or paying off their bounty via IF or a rebuy, would make it possible to return to the system unopposed.

I would guess from Besiegers comments in this thread the ATR NPCs are just regular Elite NPCs with special loadouts making them faster & harder hitting but no more or less clever than the rest of the AI in the game. This suggests that they are unlikely to get any cleverer unless the regular stuff does too. Similarly with their relative persistence, if they are 'just' regular NPCs in special ships they will follow the regular ships patterns elsewhere & would despawn if no one held the instance open, and not recognise you if you return (I believe). I have not tested this & frankly, couldn't, your experience & opinions here are important & it's why I'm pushing this idea here in the PvP forum more than anywhere else.

Your exit from the cycle of self-destruction is the same as I picture, it may be that my idea of denying repair/rearm would just make it happen sooner.

 

[jasonbarron]

The problem is, you guys are working on a completely different premise then Fdev is. Fdev simply wants to curb aggression by making it more difficult to a reasonable degree; they never said they were planning to halt it outright.

I suggest you check your premises.

 

[Riverside]

To truly close the loop hole you are all so concerned with

This, like CLogging is a part of the game, a problem that has virtually no direct impact on my playstyle, I do all my baddie stuff in Anarchies & try to maintain a squeaky clean image. I've never CLogged or suicidewindered my way out of trouble, On previous occasions I've gained a bounty I've gone exploring (laying low 'till the heat dies down) & returned to pay off the legacy fine/bounty once it expired. I'll no longer be able to do this, but I'll still pay off any fine or bounty in the new system.

Do you not think there is an issue? The OP does & that's pretty much why I joined in. I don't really care what the actual punishment is, I haven't offered any opinion on it so far. Seems to me griefing is part of the game, so is ship destruction (or it should be). I'm not proposing anyone lose their ship (assuming they can afford to rebuy it), a ban for playing the game in a legitimate but unpopular way would be OTT (but an okay last resort for cheaters). Son owns NMS & it's pretty good now.

 

[Riverside]

I thought this was the overall premise?

So you murder/illegally destroy CMDRs/NPCs and your notoriety goes up as does your rebuy.

I thought the premise was if you continued on with this behaviour as somepoint the ATR would be so frequent (even if you're not in a hot ship) you'd end up dying, therefore at long last applying that super paintful rebuy that's the major way of penalising you and reining in ganking?


Now, what I don't pretend to know is how the notoriety and rebuy goes up, and therefore how effective a deterrent it is? Does it even go up for NPC murder? Does it drop/decay over time anyway?

I've been trying to watch if people are posting information from the beta as regards this...

I'm struggling with notoriety too, it only seems to affect the rebuy/bounties of the players involved. Nice bonus for the victims, but only makes a difference to the attacker when they are finally killed. If the ATR insta-kill that's pretty boring, my idea is for more of a running-man type scenario. You can run but you can't repair/rearm or swap out of your hot ship (but you can clean it) beyond a certain point.

 

[Riverside]

The problem is, you guys are working on a completely different premise then Fdev is. Fdev simply wants to curb aggression by making it more difficult to a reasonable degree; they never said they were planning to halt it outright.

I suggest you check your premises.

Nothing I suggested prevents you from paying your debt & going back to killing. But if you choose to keep building the bounties my suggestion closes the 'you can always escape' loophole. If you think it would halt killing completely I think maybe you're reading it wrong. Can you point out what gave you that impression? I'll see if I can clarify (or accept I'm wrong).

 

[NeilF]

I'm struggling with notoriety too, it only seems to affect the rebuy/bounties of the players involved. Nice bonus for the victims, but only makes a difference to the attacker when they are finally killed. If the ATR insta-kill that's pretty boring, my idea is for more of a running-man type scenario. You can run but you can't repair/rearm or swap out of your hot ship (but you can clean it) beyond a certain point.

Well, that's sort of what I've been hearing - Notoriety is solely for the (illegal) destruction of CMDRs...

And yes, my impression of the mechanic was, the higher your notoriety the more likely/quicker the ATR will turn up, until such times as they are arriving even out of the blue (no matter what ship you're in)... Ultimately to force you at some point to that rebuy justice!

 

[Rubbernuke]

Maybe you have it so scrubbing hot ships is graded?

So, to begin with you can scrub your ship anywhere, but as you become more and more wanted you become too hot for the core systems to scrub, slowly forcing you out to the edges of the bubble?

 

[Goose4291]

Well, that's sort of what I've been hearing - Notoriety is solely for the (illegal) destruction of CMDRs...

And yes, my impression of the mechanic was, the higher your notoriety the more likely/quicker the ATR will turn up, until such times as they are arriving even out of the blue (no matter what ship you're in)... Ultimately to force you at some point to that rebuy justice!

Nope. Someone did a test on it yesterday. You accrue Notoriety from attacking NPCs also.

 

[NeilF]

Maybe you have it so scrubbing hot ships is graded?

So, to begin with you can scrub your ship anywhere, but as you become more and more wanted you become too hot for the core systems to scrub, slowly forcing you out to the edges of the bubble?

Who knows...

Seems Notoriety is aimed at ganking then (as NPCs are excluded)? So you'd think as it goes up it want to prevent continued ganking? And to prevent continued ganking it needs to ultimately penalise the ganker? And to penalise the ganker ultimately it needs to level a huge penalty, which seems to be in the form of a huge rebuy?

I'm still concerned we'll just see certain groups of gankers just destroying each other tactically to reset Notoriety and claim each other's bounties...