'Attack of the AI' III

How is the AI for you in 2.1.02?

  • I'm too young to die! (Waaay too easy)

    Votes: 25 3.1%
  • Hey' not too rough (Too easy)

    Votes: 89 11.2%
  • Hurt me plenty (About right)

    Votes: 365 46.0%
  • Ultra-Voilence (Too hard)

    Votes: 231 29.1%
  • Nightmare! (Waaay too hard)

    Votes: 84 10.6%

  • Total voters
    794
  • Poll closed .
Case-in-point: In my opinion, the game is now for Elite pilots in combat-only ships. Traders, miners, even explorers, ones kitted up in balanced ships like the Python, are toast. Anything generic and balanced cannot compete, unless of course, you've already engineered yourself way up. I haven't ... yet. Still trying to get components. Sigh, might as well be Eve On-line now.

So not this, ^^

I've not been playing very long, about 4 Months, I fly an Asp which is so-so not A-Spec everything and I have not been killed by the ai yet.

I have tried most different kinds of missions but mainly base assault ones as I'm not very good at pew-pew but I do know how to run away if I need to, I also am careful where I tread.

Yes the ai is more difficult than before but that what makes the game "Dangerous" like it should be.

I do think this has got to be more than just tougher ai though, the patch is only a few days old and folks are throwing their toys away threatening to never play again, christ, man up, grow a pair as it's only a bloody video game after all.

Mick. :)
 
I would have every sympathy for those complaining about the new AI, if what they were asking for was things like:

Lowering the police response times on high sec systems trade routes, asteroids and planetary rings.

UI improvements to better determine if a sector they are about to jump to is a low security/anarchy/conflict system

Improvements to the pirate AI to determine that they if they are attempting to pirate a cargo worth fighting for.

Improvements to the pirate AI to change them from attempting to murder a player, rather than to either cripple and rob if in a low-sec area or if in high sec, knock the shields our, quickly hatch breaker and scoop up as much as they can acquire before the police arrive then scarper.

As I see it, most of the complaining is coming from people in high end/endgame ships that are point blank refusing to cut into their bottom line by installing the correct shield generator/additional Armour/defensive measures or plotting safe courses.

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So not this, ^^

I've not been playing very long, about 4 Months, I fly an Asp which is so-so not A-Spec everything and I have not been killed by the ai yet.

I have tried most different kinds of missions but mainly base assault ones as I'm not very good at pew-pew but I do know how to run away if I need to, I also am careful where I tread.

Yes the ai is more difficult than before but that what makes the game "Dangerous" like it should be.

I do think this has got to be more than just tougher ai though, the patch is only a few days old and folks are throwing their toys away threatening to never play again, christ, man up, grow a pair as it's only a bloody video game after all.

Mick. :)
Seconded. And I AM an '84er, not one to actively seek out combat and can't hack too high level of excitement full stop right now and I'm still loving it and yet to lose a ship to the new AI despite constantly being chased by experts and up for some reason

I think TBH we're seeing a lot of the "no interdictions at all/no NPC/difficulty levels" nonsense crawl back out of the woodwork on the back of this seeing an opportunity.

Elite was always tough as nails, it never had a difficulty setting. As an '84er and not a fan of tonnes of combat - man up a bit - it's just not that hard.
 
I've not been playing very long, about 4 Months, I fly an Asp which is so-so not A-Spec everything and I have not been killed by the ai yet.

So I'm guessing, after 2.1, you just run away every time?

Try competing in the Mehet Community quest. My experience is landing in the high RES, instantly being assaulted by multiple faction ships, at least one of them being from Felicia Winters. As I'm currently aligned with Hudson. This poses an immediate
condrey for me. Do I try and dodge until help arrives or turn and fight and lose 40 merits, bc we are both in The Federation? Either way, after that guranteed multiple ship attack is dashed, I'm left damaged and malfunctioned, limping around seeking bigger fish to lynch with my newfound protectors. At least, I'll be top 10% and swipe that 20+ mil for my efforts.

Seriously, though, how about a little diversity? Knowing what hell is waiting for me each time I land is a bit mundane.
 
I play minecraft with my son. If an update turned it into a compulsory gorefest I wouldn't be very happy about that, because it would no longer be the game I bought. If I wanted a gorefest I'd have bought a different game.

I like race sims. If a compulsory update turned one of my games into GTA5 I'd be pretty unhappy about it, because it's not the game I paid for.

If I wanted to race in GTA5 and got ganked, maybe I'd be more willing to accept it.
 
Well, I guess I'll be waiting for 1.6.03. Decided to do a little run to Eravate and sell my scan Data to Adles Armada & stop on the way at a high tech system and get a C3 Multi Canon. Made my first jump with a full load of Beryllium to sell at the high tech system (might as well make a little money on the 90 LY trip right?). Get jumped at the first system I come into and interdicted. I immediately submit and see it is a single ship so I figure my A rated Python could handle it. Boy was I wrong. Appeared to be an Asp but I didn't have time to scan it. I don't know what kind of beams he had but by the time I was turned around to face him, one ring of my 6A shield with two 0A shield boosters was already gone, decided to run and tried to high wake out. Before I could line up with my destination and finish charging to high wake, the ASP took down my shields and hull. Hello 7,000,000 credit insurance claim and lost $648,000+credits in scan data. My ranks are Novice, Broker, & Pathfinder. I like to trade and explore but not so much for combat. If I am going to get chewed up every time I get interdicted, the game is no longer fun even if FDev refunds the insurance costs. I was planing on going ahead and buying Horizions after seeing what the Engineers update brought to the table. Looks like I will pass now unless they get this fixed. An NPC Asp should not be able to kill an A rated Python in under 30 seconds.
 
My ranks are Novice, Broker, & Pathfinder. I like to trade and explore but not so much for combat. If I am going to get chewed up every time I get interdicted, the game is no longer fun even if FDev refunds the insurance costs.

So much for that theory of rank effecting A.I., if this poor guy lost an A-rated Python vs ASP @ Novice level. The game is too hard. They obviously expect you to run away everytime unless you're Top Gun trained. I used to welcome interdictions. Now I typically submit and high tail it asap. Hardly worth the effort for 30,000 Cr.

Everyone that voted 'easy' are trolling. I've even say the same about most of the 'just right' voters. Some people find joy seeing others suffer. It's distrubing... The a.i. definitely needed a buff before, but now it needs nerfed.
 
Doesn't sound strong argument to me. ED doesn't need everyone. It needs many as possible, but not everyone.
Because when you are marketting a product to the general public it makes sense not to restrict it in any way you needn't. If you are going to sell to x% of potential customers then you'll sell more copies if the potential customer number is bigger rather than smaller.
Selling computer games is selling into a very specialist market, by making a space game/simulator style program like Elite you are automatically not going to sell it to those who prefer less cerebrally challenging fare, neither will you be selling to those who like magic flying unicorns and pretty colours. Deciding to exclude any portion of the relatively small number of gamers left makes no financial sense. On the other hand, if Elite could be shown to be ideal for all ages, accessible to the old, inform, very young, those fitted with wooden legs, the blind, the deaf, and the terminally stupid then you'd stand a fair chance of maximising your market share.

Economics 101
Dave
 
Well, I guess I'll be waiting for 1.6.03. Decided to do a little run to Eravate and sell my scan Data to Adles Armada & stop on the way at a high tech system and get a C3 Multi Canon. Made my first jump with a full load of Beryllium to sell at the high tech system (might as well make a little money on the 90 LY trip right?). Get jumped at the first system I come into and interdicted. I immediately submit and see it is a single ship so I figure my A rated Python could handle it. Boy was I wrong. Appeared to be an Asp but I didn't have time to scan it. I don't know what kind of beams he had but by the time I was turned around to face him, one ring of my 6A shield with two 0A shield boosters was already gone, decided to run and tried to high wake out. Before I could line up with my destination and finish charging to high wake, the ASP took down my shields and hull. Hello 7,000,000 credit insurance claim and lost $648,000+credits in scan data. My ranks are Novice, Broker, & Pathfinder. I like to trade and explore but not so much for combat. If I am going to get chewed up every time I get interdicted, the game is no longer fun even if FDev refunds the insurance costs. I was planing on going ahead and buying Horizions after seeing what the Engineers update brought to the table. Looks like I will pass now unless they get this fixed. An NPC Asp should not be able to kill an A rated Python in under 30 seconds.
this is typical of what i am seeing. if i have ANY cargo in the hold i can GUARANTEE npcs of expert (rare) dangerous (common) and master (rare but very very unsurvivable) interdicting me. im competent rank, trader i am merchant and im a ranger explorer. the last master ship killed me in my asp in basically 20-25 seconds. the actual death took longer because i was fleeing after 10 seconds when my shields went - 5C with two shield boosters 0A. he took out my thrusters and that was it. no wake, no boost no nothing but 1.4 million rebuy. it was just the agony of waiting while he picked my ship apart. didnt try to shoot cargo hatch even.

i know people will hammer me for not picking one of trade or explorer or combat and outfitting purely for that. but pure isnt what i want. i dont want to run from every interdiction because i only have shield not weapons and about 4 tons of cargo capacit to boot. i dont want to spend my whole game over 1000 ly from the bubble always, never coming back because again i have a pure explorer and it will die if a novice sidewinder gives it a dirty look. and im not into pure combat yet. i was building a ship for it - for when i wanted to try that and go into CZ and res areas. im an old 84 and it was nothing like as hard as this is. you might say that we had to be all rounders because we couldnt change ships and there were no real missions apart from random nova rescues... but that is what sold me on this game, the idea of being able to do the same again. i had my cobra, and yes the AI was a bit dumb and then with the asp even... but i did have combats i fled from. a dangerous npc in an anaconda. i had my canopy at 4% against another anaconda with a novice pilot... and i won that one. felt great, even with the repair cost. i fixed the canopy before resume my journey...

now its getting more and more like dont take cargo, if you do run from every interdiction. people are saying pick what you want to do and config the asp ONLY for that/get a proper ship to do that... so maybe they are right and its suicide out there without having a fully specialised ship loadout and sticking only to that role. apart from not thinking that was FD intent with this game, if they are right and its suicide to run a balanced jack of all trades loadout, its the essence of undiluted folly to go out in a basic ship with no outfitting at all, or a half built ship. thing is, the new players, they only get a basic ship dont they?

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Because when you are marketting a product to the general public it makes sense not to restrict it in any way you needn't. If you are going to sell to x% of potential customers then you'll sell more copies if the potential customer number is bigger rather than smaller.
Selling computer games is selling into a very specialist market, by making a space game/simulator style program like Elite you are automatically not going to sell it to those who prefer less cerebrally challenging fare, neither will you be selling to those who like magic flying unicorns and pretty colours. Deciding to exclude any portion of the relatively small number of gamers left makes no financial sense. On the other hand, if Elite could be shown to be ideal for all ages, accessible to the old, inform, very young, those fitted with wooden legs, the blind, the deaf, and the terminally stupid then you'd stand a fair chance of maximising your market share.

Economics 101
Dave
theres magic unicorns? give me a system name! and i think we have a full quota of terminally stupid. i mean, i still havent given up on the game yet.


its no use, i need to take a break from the game. losing my ship (only my second rebuy ever) just shook me up. not having any chance to get away really did it for me. i still hadnt made back more than 30% or so in a few hours play after. down to 8.5 million again.
 
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I did more tests today, in various ships and under different conditions (cargo, no cargo, high security systems, anarchy systems etc.) and it seems that maybe, the real root of many problems for many players is probably the insane amout of interdictions from NPCs.
The AI itself is OK, it is possible to fight (with a ship outfitted for fighting), it is possible to run away. I did not lost any ship. So far so good.
BUT - the overall amout of interdictions (espeially with cargo on board) is really WAY TOO HIGH for anyone who want simply trade or do trading missions. By the term "WAY TO HIGH" I mean something like 10x or 20x more than the amount which can be fun. It is OK to be interdicted once or twice during four hours long trading session, but definitely it is not fun and really annoying to be interdicted 40 times.
Plus, the enemies who are interdicting you are way off for a normal player in the ship outfitted for trade (and I suppose also for mining for example. I did not tested mining). I was able to run every time, but I am a bit experienced player, with approx. 850 hours in ED, I am using X-52Pro HOTAS and in combat ship, I do not have any problems with AI in combat zones etc. But for average, non combat oriented player, it must be Hell on Earth.

I really think that AI is OK, it should stay where it is, but FD really needs to tame NPCs when it comes to unwanted combat and interdictions. For player (regardless of combat rank) doing trade/mining/exploration/non-combat missions etc. the unwanted close encouter with hostile NPC should be rare. Something they want to write home about, not something they must see ten times per hour.
 
i got horizons back 28 jan this year, 539 hours played. nice gold asp paint job when horizons became season pass. well its shadow of mordor and skyrim and civ 5 again for now until i get up the enthusiasm to come try again. im a casual player. i had more fun fights when i had a fighting chance in 2.1. but i had far more fun in 2.0 sadly. speaking AI -wise i mean. the number and type of npcs interdicting. i like the new missions and an awful lot else. the traffic control voices. the new menus i like too.

the massively overpowered sunglare on the cockpit hud console also limits my play time by giving me a headache - and its totally non lore. if enough light got through the canopy to do that much glare then looking at a star through it would instantly blind you perhaps permanently...
 
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I did more tests today, in various ships and under different conditions (cargo, no cargo, high security systems, anarchy systems etc.) and it seems that maybe, the real root of many problems for many players is probably the insane amout of interdictions from NPCs.
The AI itself is OK, it is possible to fight (with a ship outfitted for fighting), it is possible to run away. I did not lost any ship. So far so good.
BUT - the overall amout of interdictions (espeially with cargo on board) is really WAY TOO HIGH for anyone who want simply trade or do trading missions. By the term "WAY TO HIGH" I mean something like 10x or 20x more than the amount which can be fun. It is OK to be interdicted once or twice during four hours long trading session, but definitely it is not fun and really annoying to be interdicted 40 times.
Plus, the enemies who are interdicting you are way off for a normal player in the ship outfitted for trade (and I suppose also for mining for example. I did not tested mining). I was able to run every time, but I am a bit experienced player, with approx. 850 hours in ED, I am using X-52Pro HOTAS and in combat ship, I do not have any problems with AI in combat zones etc. But for average, non combat oriented player, it must be Hell on Earth.

I really think that AI is OK, it should stay where it is, but FD really needs to tame NPCs when it comes to unwanted combat and interdictions. For player (regardless of combat rank) doing trade/mining/exploration/non-combat missions etc. the unwanted close encouter with hostile NPC should be rare. Something they want to write home about, not something they must see ten times per hour.

Excellent post. Repped. This is exactly the issue.
 
On the other hand, if Elite could be shown to be ideal for all ages, accessible to the old, inform, very young, those fitted with wooden legs, the blind, the deaf, and the terminally stupid then you'd stand a fair chance of maximising your market share.

Except you're eventually end up with mostly just the "old, inform, very young, those fitted with wooden legs, the blind, the deaf, and the terminally stupid", as a game which amount of challenge is tuned to toddler level will make everyone else feel unchallenged and lose interest over time. And you'll get stuck with the toddlers and push away the normal players (not just the "pros"). If FD wants to maximize sales, they have to aim for the "middle range players", the "average", the "normal" playes, not for the "top pros", but most certainly not for the least common denominator.

A lot of my friends purchased this game shortly after me. I am the only one still playing, mostly because the real (mostly) galaxy appeals to my inner armchair astronomer. The rest of them got bored and bolted before even the powerlay update dropped.

If you look at all these whinging threads about the AI, and look at the way these people are losing their ships, people unable to run away with Cobras, people unable to survive and escape an interdiction while flying anacondas, people who don't manage pips, who run in straight lines, that carry chaff but don't even have a key binded to launch it, who can't even dock their ships themselves, who find being unable to out turn eagles in a corvette "a bug", people who don't know nor care to know 10% of the game mechanics.

Completely clueless about the game they are playing, and completely unable to overcome any kind of tiny obstacle, actually even worse, they consider any kind of obstacle "a game breaking bug that needs to be fixed". And mostly completely unwilling to try to improve, or change their ways in order to overcome obstacles, they prefer to boo-hoo until FD bends over and re-enables trained chimp difficulty again. You've certainly seen all these theads over the past couple weeks, no point in going on further.

Soon we'll see the game nerfed back again into toddler difficulty, so that people who can't be bothered to learn how to play the game can be appeased, and go back to "click on braindead, parked in front of weapons NPCs to make them pop" and play while semi-afk.

Is this what David Braben envisioned for ED to be known for in the future war of the space sims? As ED being The Least Common Denominator of the Space Sims? I don't think it is. And if it is, then it's sad.
 
I don't get it.

I've played for four hours straight tonight (absolutely rat-backsided), doing only missions with cargo. I've not been interdicted once despite taking most of my missions into anarchy systems.

There's something amiss with the whole game since the last update. Maybe there are bubbles within bubbles. I've been flying around the fringes of civilised space with no problem. Maybe being closer in to the centrre is what's causing the problems?

I've been flying a DBS in 1.6, so no mods for me but I haven't needed any.
 
I'm not sure if you guys have seen The Expanse but Elite Dangerous is essentially filled with AI that remind me of those stealth ships that pwnd the Canterbury and MCRN Donnager. "Oh look, asteroid! OH NOES! NUKE INBOUND!" boom. Dead. No warning.

Which is cool... except that Elite isn't The Expanse and we can't self destruct our flagships into a trillion bits of metal to take out out enemies in a blaze of glory.
 
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BUT - the overall amout of interdictions (espeially with cargo on board) is really WAY TOO HIGH for anyone who want simply trade or do trading missions. By the term "WAY TO HIGH" I mean something like 10x or 20x more than the amount which can be fun. It is OK to be interdicted once or twice during four hours long trading session, but definitely it is not fun and really annoying to be interdicted 40 times.
Plus, the enemies who are interdicting you are way off for a normal player in the ship outfitted for trade (and I suppose also for mining for example. I did not tested mining). I was able to run every time, but I am a bit experienced player, with approx. 850 hours in ED, I am using X-52Pro HOTAS and in combat ship, I do not have any problems with AI in combat zones etc. But for average, non combat oriented player, it must be Hell on Earth.

I really think that AI is OK, it should stay where it is, but FD really needs to tame NPCs when it comes to unwanted combat and interdictions. For player (regardless of combat rank) doing trade/mining/exploration/non-combat missions etc. the unwanted close encouter with hostile NPC should be rare. Something they want to write home about, not something they must see ten times per hour.
Right on, Commander!

But that's a bit too rare by my reckoning. It'd be interesting to know what the low-end peak of time-played is and then adjust it so doing 'average' trading/missions stuff you'd get just a handful of attacks a session - on the assumption some you can shake and some outrun and some fight so the fights are significant for those who're trying to avoid them but not terminal (often).

Of course straying off that course might result in things being different, but that's the game. It's gotta be believable that an average joe trader's life is liveable, and by extension an average quiet player's game. Then Powerplay or missions or seeking combat in the various res/cz/etc for those wanting more action - surely this is just the logically right thing?
 
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