'Attack of the AI' III

[smiths121]

Thread about AI difficulty - and there you and I are discussing how we make the game more difficult for ourselves in just about every aspect! One day I'll have the guts to do a CG in open under iron man mode, trying to pluck the courage up to support SEPP in the upcoming games!

Totally agree with you on tools . you used to be able to see the system security level from the galactic map in the bubble, rather than having to go into the system map (cannot remember if this was in release or ended in gamma). Moving it back to the info pane on the galactic map (I am assuming its still not there) would help inexperienced players.

I got used to looking at the galactic map info for a system from exploring, I have to admit I have not been looking at security levels, I should, as I am staying close to Alioth at the moment, and my FFE memories suggest there are some rather nasty systems around here!

Simon

Well said. I do wonder if those of us who play Ironman, have quite a different outlook on the game.
For me it's not the AI that's the issue (which I think is about right) but the lack of tools to easily make choices as to risk. System security is hidden behind map openings, cannot be easily visualise on the fly, and routes cannot be plotted to take this into account. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy entering a low sec or anarchy system, I just like to have a good heads-up that I am. Thinking about my actions and the consequences of them is also important but again this can be somewhat opaque in the game.
So FD don't need to change the AI, but they do need to improve the tools and information available to people to make good choices as to what to do.

 

[frostypaw]

I challenge you to find more than a couple of folks that state they expect the game to have areas that are high reward and risk-free. Thats a very uncharitable and dishonest representation of the complaints people are making, hence why I lumped you in with the git-gud crowd.

A couple of folks, if indeed you find any, could be just trolls you know?

one
two
but i have better things to do than further defend the fact that i'm on your side
poll with people actively and precisely voting for entirely optional interdictions

 

[Cmdr Esteban]

Hurt me plenty

DominAItrix.

 

[anikaiful]

AI's okay, it at least tries to be a challenge (and depending on your ship/loadout, succeeds at times).

 

[myrr mac]

one
two
but i have better things to do than further defend the fact that i'm on your side
poll with people actively and precisely voting for entirely optional interdictions

Neither of your two linked quotes makes any mention of wanting high-reward.

the poll option "voluntary npc interaction" isnt incongruous with "that wont pay well" either.

I apologise if I m grumpy. You were misrepresenting the main complaints, imo. If I was fast to judge then I m sorry for that.

 

[smiths121]

Well played Commander WR3ND , 2 deaths in a year is going some. I think I have more "drunken" aim at the mail slot to exit the station and miss deaths than that over the last year! Its not the rebuy screen I hate, but the pre-flight check in the sidewinder when you start!

I hope to go a year without losing my ship, might need to give up drinking though.

Simon

In effect I basically end up playing ironman, because I don't care for the immersion breaking death mechanics. It's kind of anti-meta, if you will. I want to play as if I'm telling the narrative of the character I'm playing, role playing even to an extent. Though I don't play as if I'm the character so much as if the character were me if I was a part of the game universe.

I'm not really sure of the need to play a self imposed ironman mode though, especially when it's so difficult to die in this game, unless you go looking for trouble, bite off more than you can chew, or don't know what you're getting yourself into and how to prepare for it and what to do. As I mentioned before, the NPCs have only sent me to the rebuy screen twice in over a year of playing the game.

 

[howardtay]

Frontier have this paragraph in the manual.

Whether you’re looking to engage in deadly ship-to-ship combat, discover majestic spacevistas,
make your fortune trading, or just experience life as a starship pilot, Elite: Dangerous
lets you blaze your own trail.

According to all the comments on this Forum, you evidently can't blaze your own trail in the current version. nor can you discover majestic spacevistas unless you have enough credits to rebuy your ship constantly. You can't make a fortune trading either because of the same problem. The only piece of text that seems to be correct is engage in deadly ship-to-ship combat, with the empasis on Deadly...

 

[WR3ND]

Well played Commander WR3ND , 2 deaths in a year is going some. I think I have more "drunken" aim at the mail slot to exit the station and miss deaths than that over the last year! Its not the rebuy screen I hate, but the pre-flight check in the sidewinder when you start!

I hope to go a year without losing my ship, might need to give up drinking though.

Simon

I've had more than two deaths in the game though. A couple were also PVP, and one was beer mechanics related, something about being wedged between the interior station ring and wall on the side near the airlock.

 

[Cryptonomica]

If a fight is devolving into a joust, you can always fly backwards. If they have a great alpha strike, they're probably using weapons that are easy to dodge if you see them coming.

If you approach the AI with the same strategy every time, then the AI is going to do what it's programmed to do against that. So if you're always getting into jousts and you don't want to do that? That's actually on you. Either out-maneuver them to get into a turning battle or use reverse thrust to make it a slug match.

You don't have to play their game to win. In fact, it's best if you don't.

Fair comment.

With regards to flying backwards, wouldn't that also lead to a face-to-face encounter, essentially a different form of joust?

For me, a good and interesting AI isn't one that has a single, perfect response to any given situation. It's one that has a range of different tactics it can use in each situation, and one that switches these up every so often. I'm looking for variety and personality in dogfights. Sure, some of that can come from me, but I'd really like to see some more coming from the NPCs as well.

 

[frostypaw]

Neither of your two linked quotes makes any mention of wanting high-reward.

the poll option "voluntary npc interaction" isnt incongruous with "that wont pay well" either.

I apologise if I m grumpy. You were misrepresenting the main complaints, imo. If I was fast to judge then I m sorry for that.

It's Monday *party*

Tbh as I looked I felt a little awkward - many of the objections are from people with sad stories attached, or from people I think have been roped in just out of being very compassionate. They're told they can go to high-sec and be safe, but they won't - and the conclusion comes from there it's just a bit more roundabout often than a single post. It's a difficult subject in a way - just to me there's a danger of what's been asked for crossing the line where it's becoming tourist mode in Crysis and you never need to learn to duck and use cover.

Some have tried and adjusted their ships and found it's fine. I just think until people are doing that and accepting the new geography we'll keep seeing the "OP! nerf it!" cries jumping on the "there's something up with the interdiction rate" point - clarity about that new geography and that it's here to stay would be good, the bug we can all face seperately

ps. cheers howard

 

[myrr mac]

Fair enough frostypaw.

funny little anecdote that just happened to me:

doing smuggler hunting mission. Annoyingly rare targets. Gonna be extra careful about accepting such a mission in the future. Anyway.... ; Flying about in SC, finally get a mission target. Notice a deadly python pirate out for my 20k in engineering mats. I get behind the mission target (not the python) and successfuly interdict him. In the instance created by MY interdiction, the pirate python is waiting for me, and my target is nowhere to be seen (I still got a fine for interdicting a clean smuggler tho). Beat him, but end up on 50% hull (He rammed my last ring off). Out-turned me the whole fight too*, basically my turrets had to do the work. Flying A-rated conda (my understanding was they turn faster than pythons. Guess I was mistaken).

I m now mostly harmless.

http://imgur.com/IgU4Y

ok, not whole fight, I did get about 5 seconds of MC time on him, which was critical, thanks to backwards flying and some FA/off (still learning that). also 350k in repairs.

 

[HBK]

I'm still torn out about the new AI. Part of me enjoys the new challenge. Part of me wonders as of how much I need to work my *** off to kill an Asp in my FdL.

I think I'm leaning towards a rather simple stance of "if I'd really wanted to test my skills, I'd go PvP".

Pre-2.1 AI was brain-dead easy, that much we can agree on. I could kill Condas with ease in my Vulture, and it felt wrong. Very wrong.

But now it feels as if the difficulty slider went berserk the other way around, where even a wing of three Eagles are challenge, and anything bigger than an Asp is a no-go (without help). As I said, I'm still undecided whether I like it or not, but one thing's certain, is that I wonder why those git gud dwellers are wasting their time against AI anyway when there are whole layers of PvP offered to them ... Just can't wrap my head around it.

Anyway, I think part of the braindeadness of the pre-2.1 AI was in large part due to the spinning bug. I remember 1.3 AI being quite challenging at times. And with the current version I've also had my share of circling AI not firing a shot (annoying fights, but hey, easy kills). I'm sure FD will find a way to keep them dangerous while not being as annoying to fight as they are right now (lol Ramacondas lol).

 

[howardtay]

I have just spent 3 hours playing Elite Dangerous, I am not a comabt expert so my weapons are 3 grade 3 Beam Lasers and 2 grade 2 Multi Cannons all are turreted, well I did say that I'm not a combat pilot. I fly a fully 'A' Rated Python with Military Armour and grade 4 Hull Reinforcement Pack, which I only added to my ship after the 2.1/1.6 upgrade fiasco and being killed 3 times in about 40 seconds, I 've just been trading imperial slaves from one station to another and stopping at USS zones on my way back if only 2 threats are shown in that USS, to collect stuff for the Engineers ready for when I eventually purchase Horizons. All of the threats I have faced (about 20) have been large ships FDL, Asps, Pythons and even an Anaconda with Plasma's, I have lost my shields on all occasions but only had about 10 to 15% hull damage at the end and I've manged to win all the battles. I don't use Powerplay and I am allied to Federation and Empire so everything seems to be working for me personally, although I understand those that are dipleased or angry that it's not working for them, because I was also one of those players and I very nearly uninstalled the game, the AI does need a fair bit of tweaking to get it right for everyone, but at least it's playable again, I am so happy that it seems to be working correctly for me, I don't understand why it isn't working for everyone, I'm nothing special just a retired pensioner with a lot of time on his hands.

 

[CMDR_TheBS]

Again, I think the only way to have fun is to go pure combat in a Vulture that costs <<1M insurance. For each death, you'll have 1-3M in bounties, plausibly 5-10M if you're winging up for more numbers against baddies. Several people who were in my boat, able to afford a Python or Anaconda for trading, mining (probably more of the Python role), exploration (more in the case of an Anaconda), but tiring of the 5-15M insurance, hence why they're dropping back to a pure combat Vulture.

Let's face it, pure combat is what the NPCs are now geared towards, and that's fine ... if the trading, mining, exploring, etc... wasn't also part of the game. I haven't met anyone yet who is doing anything other than combat as their staple that thinks the NPC changes were good. Dying every time I log on, no matter how I run (and yes, I've watched >100 hours of video on how to play over the past year), is just getting old ... especially in a Python that boosts 350m/s and has A-rated everything else.

Glad the PvP crowd loves the new AI. Too bad for us PvE people, especially those of us who don't bother with much combat. If I want a combat game, there are other options. Again, I only game 4-5 hours/week, maybe 8 hours/week on a really heavy gaming week. If that makes me a little boy for wanting to turn off the game and play something else that doesn't have me going negative in my bank account every time I play, so be it. It's supposed to be an escape, not a beat down every time I log on.

 

[sensai25]

In a combat logic IA IAS fine in WARZONE and RES.
In a mission giver, explorer, trader IA is way too hard.

The trouble is that who will now fly :

• Type 6
• Type 9
• Type 7
• Keeback
• Cobra Mk IV
• Or smaller ships that aren't fast enough

Not much people.
When I am in FdL or Python OK IA could be fine.
But on the listed ship this is just ridiculously insane.

I am constantly interdicted by Elite IA every 6-8 jumps. There is no more fun to be harassed liked that but IA so often. Sincerely no fun at all.

When I want fight I go in specific zones (combat etc). But i also empty quiet places on other activities
For me FD forget that and make a huge mistake.

 

[CMDR WRONGTURN]

Again, I think the only way to have fun is to go pure combat in a Vulture that costs <<1M insurance. For each death, you'll have 1-3M in bounties, plausibly 5-10M if you're winging up for more numbers against baddies. Several people who were in my boat, able to afford a Python or Anaconda for trading, mining (probably more of the Python role), exploration (more in the case of an Anaconda), but tiring of the 5-15M insurance, hence why they're dropping back to a pure combat Vulture.

Let's face it, pure combat is what the NPCs are now geared towards, and that's fine ... if the trading, mining, exploring, etc... wasn't also part of the game. I haven't met anyone yet who is doing anything other than combat as their staple that thinks the NPC changes were good. Dying every time I log on, no matter how I run (and yes, I've watched >100 hours of video on how to play over the past year), is just getting old ... especially in a Python that boosts 350m/s and has A-rated everything else.

Glad the PvP crowd loves the new AI. Too bad for us PvE people, especially those of us who don't bother with much combat. If I want a combat game, there are other options. Again, I only game 4-5 hours/week, maybe 8 hours/week on a really heavy gaming week. If that makes me a little boy for wanting to turn off the game and play something else that doesn't have me going negative in my bank account every time I play, so be it. It's supposed to be an escape, not a beat down every time I log on.

Exactly, very well said.!!

 

[Draven Darken]

I finally got a chance to play some EDH 2.1.02 this weekend (for the first time in several weeks, since I've been busy making a video). So far, I'd say that the AI feels just about right to me with the latest patch. I had a good, profitable session of bounty collecting at a nav point (getting help from the authorities, of course), and even got into and emerged victorious from a couple of 1v1's with fairly strong opponents like a dangerous Imperial Courier (with quite a bit of effort). But I also dropped into a USS to find myself being jumped by three pirates in similar ships to my Cobra MK III, and whereas before 2.1 I probably would have stuck around to see if I could even up the odds, this time they were in my kitchen so fast that it was clear I needed to high-wake out of there, which I did successfully. So the galaxy feels more dangerous now, but not so dangerous that I can't stay alive and make a profit (both of which I did throughout the weekend). So I'm happy with the new AI, so far.

Edit: Oh, and for the record, much of what I did this weekend was NOT bounty hunting ... I was also running a variety of PvE-style missions. And I enjoyed them more than ever because of the added excitement of the potential of having to evade some more effective NPCs.

 

[Sams]

There appears to still be an 'uncommon' AI bug which strips shields and hull on first attack.

I've been fighting a lot and after the patch there still seems to be random times where an AI ship can decimate my ship on the very first pass.

I've been using a A specced Python, combat fitted with proper shield and shield boosters etc. In most cases they put up a good fight and I have to adapt. In some cases I have no time to even target them before I'm stripped of full shields and down to 30% hull.

This isn't 'common' but it is still happening (happened to me once last night). I can't tell when this is going to happen and it makes no difference how well equipped the ship is, it treats it like an unshielded sidewinder.

 

[CMDR_TheBS]

in similar ships to my Cobra MK III

Try a cargo (but well armed) Python or Anaconda.

I'll fly Vipers and Vultures now. Cannot afford the insurance on a Python or Anaconda. Not worth chancing it after the last few Chance/RNGs. It's just comical to me at this point to be in a Python or Anaconda.

 

[KRONFROMGALVATRON]

Lost a clipper last night to a dangerous ranked AI clipper that was firing missiles like crazy, a dozen at least in 60 seconds, and also was matching my speed as I tried to run (didn't want to high wake being midway to a station 150000ls from central star). I actually did escape, but he somehow interdicted me again probably 10sec after entering super cruise despite the cops having engaged him in the instance I jumped out of. Sort of irritating but of course I could have high waked and survived if I really wanted to.

I equipped some point defenses to hopefully help mitigate missile fire. I also might have done better to have engaged him, but assumed I could run with the A6 thrusters and I was trying to run a mission and didn't want to lose my progress with it.

Other than this, I haven't had too much trouble with the AI being over powered etc. Even tried a hazardous RE for a bit last night and it wasn't bad even in a clipper, which is not my preferred fighting ship.