'Attack of the AI' III

[Commandr Sam]

So me and and Mate winged up and decided to tackle a high and Haz Res and check out the AI.

Both of us were in FDL's and are Dangerous and Deadly ranked atm.

Into the High first, mostly small rubbish and a couple Pythons, yep the AI is more difficult but not so much we couldn't handle it, the Pythons were dangerous or deadly ranked, they took some damage and a bit of work from both of us, could do it solo i would say just required more work, spend a lot more time maneuvering and doing more fun boost turns etc. Had a blast with the new harder AI.

Haz next, came up against slimier ranked FDL's Condas and pythons, same as high res lots of fun harder smarter AI but not overboard.....until we found a Dangerous Clipper ( first one we had seen that night )
Engaged the Clipper, Mate instantly gets Thermal Warning attack and loses shields and canopy blown out ( holy crap that was fastt...he had other choice words mind you )....I was still on the clipper and had it's shields down, mate ran and clipper turned on me as I started on it's hull....Holy hell what is this hull made of only got it down to 88% hull, after one pass my shields are gone and at 50% ( I got the Thermal attack warning to ) hull from the Clipper ( my turn to run )

Full pips to Engine and i get basically unlimited boost...I'm away, weapons are stowed and i'm running like an alter boy from a priest after Sunday service. This clipper did not move from my tail and had full lasers on me for 2 mins, were he got the power for this I have no idea. Took me out chaff, boost manuring while running nothing stopped this thing.

I love the New AI but think their are some strange anomalies happening with random encounters that need to be looked into.

I have also come across a ship using a thermal weapon, it was in a wing of 2 vultures. When he was shooting me he wasn't doing much shield damage but had me in a state where i was over heating and taking mostly module but also hull damage.

I like having tougher varied enemies. This was a fight I had to flee from.

 

[Steve Solo]

Here is a story for all the people who think the AI is too rough.

Just bought myself a python and outfitted it with basic lasers and mc's, then committed an act of pure stupidity: I went bounty hunting with a stock python and no insurance money.

I flew away with 4 million worth of vouchers. Somehow. Hull was at 25% with multiple systems malfunctioning, but got out in one piece.

So yes, the ai is harder, but not impossible. You just have to know WHEN to pull the trigger.

 

[myrr mac]

Here is a story for all the people who think the AI is too rough.

Just bought myself a python and outfitted it with basic lasers and mc's, then committed an act of pure stupidity: I went bounty hunting with a stock python and no insurance money.

I flew away with 4 million worth of vouchers. Somehow. Hull was at 25% with multiple systems malfunctioning, but got out in one piece.

So yes, the ai is harder, but not impossible. You just have to know WHEN to pull the trigger.

i acknowledge your chest being mighty, oh great chest-thumper. All hail Steve Solo, the mighty.

 

[Steve Solo]

Actually an interesting report! This Dangerous Clipper might be a bug, but it also might be intended by design, assuming it doesn't appear frequently. These things are sure very uncommon in modern games (in general, not just MMOs where they usually marked as "boss-NPCs" with bright alarming letters) but the concept of occasional OP opponents is not strange to me. I know this concept from my alltime favorite game "Dungeon Crawl" were occasionally an OP monster appears (no "Boss monster", just a common one from a few levels deeper) that would force you to dive into the next deeper level and you could count your blessings that you survived even its countenance.

Diving deeper in this game has consequences though since your character grows up on monster slashing while being pushed down too early in general means you're not yet quite prepared for the common monsters (who get stronger the deeper you dive). If this is what FD has in mind and is able to control the "occasional" in such encounters, I would say BRAVO FD! And to all: We just have to realize that we can't beat such OP ships and leave - without further consequences. [big grin] But it would be a very bold move from FD as such things are surely not everyone's cup of tea. At last we're all the galaxy saving heroes who can beat any NPC, aren't we? [redface]



Port scans, huh? To my knowledge ports never scan player ships and unless it's a new thing that I must have missed somehow this still isn't the case. All scans should be executed by system authority ships.

Maybe those big dangerous letters have been replaced with the data scan. I found that waiting for the scan data to appear (top right panel) let's you know exactly how powerful they are. If it comes up with "unusual shield scans", then the ship has probably seen an engineer. This is just a theory though.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

*thumps chest mightily*

 

[Krieger]

So me and and Mate winged up and decided to tackle a high and Haz Res and check out the AI.
<snip>...
Full pips to Engine and i get basically unlimited boost...I'm away, weapons are stowed and i'm running like an alter boy from a priest after Sunday service. This clipper did not move from my tail and had full lasers on me for 2 mins, were he got the power for this I have no idea. Took me out chaff, boost manuring while running nothing stopped this thing.

I love the New AI but think their are some strange anomalies happening with random encounters that need to be looked into.

I have similar suspicions about Dangerous Pythons. They run 4 beams, 2 of them gimballed and 2 of them turrets (probably the large mounts). They can fire those beams forever it seems. I also noticed that chaff had very little effect on them. The chaff made their beams dance around a little but they kept hitting my shields 90% of the time even when 1 to 1.5 km away. Constant SCB popping required on my side.

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

I am guessing it was a combination of a negative reputation with a pirate faction in a low security system. Those two seem to spawn higher rank people hunting you.

1) a negative reputation acts like a bounty
2) a low sec system has meaner more dangerous NPCs

My understanding was that NPC rank scaled with your own. Even in anarchy systems I rarely seeing anything much higher than Novice come after me so long as I was clean. Having an Elite NPC come after little old Harmless me was a bit of a surprise. It's obviously more complex than I realised.

I personally think it's cool to have the occasional much tougher than expected ship attack me. Get's the adrenaline going and stops me from getting complacent.

I like the new NPC AI, even the lower levels fly much more convincingly. Not had any issues with magical ability NPCs that some people seem to complain about. I've been able to run from any fight that seems too tough and have yet to die since my restart. One thing I changed up was to fit point defence most of the time - it seems to get a fair bit of use.

 

[myrr mac]

Npc rank does not scale with your combat rank, at least with regards to the pirates spawned purely for you, as random encounters.

I dont know what determines it, I have been both harmless, mostly harmless, and dangerous since the patch, and in all cases it was deadly/elite pirates.

 

[Ziljan]

Npc rank does not scale with your combat rank, at least with regards to the pirates spawned purely for you, as random encounters.

I dont know what determines it, I have been both harmless, mostly harmless, and dangerous since the patch, and in all cases it was deadly/elite pirates.

What ship are you in and how is it specced? A rated? D rated?

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

Npc rank does not scale with your combat rank, at least with regards to the pirates spawned purely for you, as random encounters.

I dont know what determines it, I have been both harmless, mostly harmless, and dangerous since the patch, and in all cases it was deadly/elite pirates.

I don't think that is true. I had two days play with 2.1 on my old character which was Expert ranked. The NPC pirates seemed to average around Dangerous. On reset to a new commander I was seeing Mostly Harmless and Novices. There are obviously exceptions. Interdiction by an Elite NPC when I was Harmless ranked was a real surprise. I was trying to understand what might cause this. I'm actually very happy with how things work now, but thought a better understanding might help players for who this is an issue.

Ziljan's question seems to suggest that the ship being flown and it's fitting might effect the NPC level. This is news to me. For what it's worth I was flying a Cobra IV in mining fit with a mix of A, B, C and D rated components.

 

[Ziljan]

May I ask you to do us a favor and fly a big ship for a while, including signing well paid, multi million contracts? I know you don't like flying big ships (I guess? me too btw. that's why I ask you ). It's just a theory but if it's true it might change your (edit: and our all of course) perspective on the whole matter at least a little bit. Please do it, just for the sake of science!

EditII:
Don't you see a pattern here:

Spoiler

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=262342

Only one example, but I've seen many similar posts lately from big ship owners...

Hate big ships, so no, I can't do it. However...

I have been flying around in my A rated FDL just to see if there is any difference in the NPC ranks I meet floating around in SC. As far as I can tell, if anything, the NPCs seem to be even weaker and less aggressive despite having a bug bounty on my head an being unfriendly with all of the minor factions.

The only thing I conclude is that High Sec seems to be the dominant factor that makes wanted NPCs weaker. The difference between NPC spawns in an FDL and a DBS are negligible. NPCs are a all master rank or below, which means they're all on par with 2.0 NPCs.

 

[myrr mac]

I don't think that is true. I had two days play with 2.1 on my old character which was Expert ranked. The NPC pirates seemed to average around Dangerous. On reset to a new commander I was seeing Mostly Harmless and Novices. There are obviously exceptions. Interdiction by an Elite NPC when I was Harmless ranked was a real surprise. I was trying to understand what might cause this. I'm actually very happy with how things work now, but thought a better understanding might help players for who this is an issue.

Ziljan's question seems to suggest that the ship being flown and it's fitting might effect the NPC level. This is news to me. For what it's worth I was flying a Cobra IV in mining fit with a mix of A, B, C and D rated components.

What I wrote is true for me. Its not open to debate.

I fly an annaconda.

 

[fransoos]

Reading many different complaints regarding high ranked (elite) npc's and cmdrs telling
this isn't true because they didn't have such experience, is it - maybe - server related ?
How many servers are dedicated to the game ?
I live in the Netherlands.

I did all the beta 2.1 and lost almost all ships ( python, FAS, Anaconda: all of them engineered ) lol.
Assuming I wasn't "gud" enough

fly save cmdrs

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

Hey, no need to get so defensive. I'm trying to help you out and get to the bottom of this.

What I wrote is true for me. Its not open to debate.

I fly an annaconda.

What you wrote is open to misinterpretation. I'm still not clear what is going on for you.

Npc rank does not scale with your combat rank, at least with regards to the pirates spawned purely for you, as random encounters.

The above is a a general statement about NPC rank scaling. I simply wrote that "I don't think that is true." The devs have stated repeatedly that there is such scaling. It has also been my experience in game.

I dont know what determines it, I have been both harmless, mostly harmless, and dangerous since the patch, and in all cases it was deadly/elite pirates.

Did you reset your save? Do you have multiple accounts? Were you flying an Annaconda while at Harmless combat rank? This is all very confusing. If you could spell out the circumstances of particular encounters in greater detail then it might be easier to work out why you are having the experiences you are.

One of the things I noticed before I reset my save is that taking high rated trade missions would spawn NPC pirates well above my combat rank. Scaling isn't purely related to one's combat rank. It's far more complex than that. If you only ever get interdicted by Deadly and Elite NPCs that is still scaling - it just sounds like it is out of whack for you. Lets try and work out what might be causing that.

I am attempting to have a constructive discussion to work out what is going on. I want to help those people who are having difficult experiences with the NPCs. I'll happily do so with those whose engage with me in a constructive way. I'm Harmless - I'll just high wake out of here if it gets too hot.

 

[myrr mac]

Hey, no need to get so defensive. I'm trying to help you out and get to the bottom of this.



What you wrote is open to misinterpretation. I'm still not clear what is going on for you.



The above is a a general statement about NPC rank scaling. I simply wrote that "I don't think that is true." The devs have stated repeatedly that there is such scaling. It has also been my experience in game.



Did you reset your save? Do you have multiple accounts? Were you flying an Annaconda while at Harmless combat rank? This is all very confusing. If you could spell out the circumstances of particular encounters in greater detail then it might be easier to work out why you are having the experiences you are.

One of the things I noticed before I reset my save is that taking high rated trade missions would spawn NPC pirates well above my combat rank. Scaling isn't purely related to one's combat rank. It's far more complex than that. If you only ever get interdicted by Deadly and Elite NPCs that is still scaling - it just sounds like it is out of whack for you. Lets try and work out what might be causing that.

I am attempting to have a constructive discussion to work out what is going on. I want to help those people who are having difficult experiences with the NPCs. I'll happily do so with those whose engage with me in a constructive way. I'm Harmless - I'll just high wake out of here if it gets too hot.

I had support reset my combat rank on friday.

Before friday: exclusively deadly/elite ranked pirates in dropships, FASes, FDLs.
after friday: exclusively deadly/elite ranked pirates in dropships, FASes, FDLs, and also anacondas now.

mission or not made no difference. Not subbed to a PP power. Location might effect frequency, I have no idea tbh. It however has no effect on the rank of the npc pirates.

A-rated conda the whole time, with refitting based on what I was doing at the time, but value of ship fairly constant since the bulk of the cost is the armor, and core internals, which remained constant.

I had 3 master ranked pirates on friday afternoon, but no other deviations from what I stated.

To be extra clear: I m talking about non-mission npc pirates. If I pick up a low ranked mission, the quest npcs will also be low rank.

 

[fransoos]

@picommander

It must be damn hot over there indeed
Kartoffeln aus Polen und Bratwurst im Sauerkraut aus Deutschland .

If there are different servers it could be an answer to the different experiences.
( the Brits have to be friendly to the germans don't they )

 

[Viajero]

*Mod hat off

For me the increased difficulty is around just right.

But given the increased difficulty I also believe the pay outs would also need to increase commensurately.

Otherwise player activity will simply and naturally flow to other non combat based game styles... Unless that is precisely what the game designers want to achieve!

 

[frostypaw]

I had support reset my combat rank on friday.

Before friday: exclusively deadly/elite ranked pirates in dropships, FASes, FDLs.
after friday: exclusively deadly/elite ranked pirates in dropships, FASes, FDLs, and also anacondas now.

mission or not made no difference. Not subbed to a PP power. Location might effect frequency, I have no idea tbh. It however has no effect on the rank of the npc pirates.

A-rated conda the whole time, with refitting based on what I was doing at the time, but value of ship fairly constant since the bulk of the cost is the armor, and core internals, which remained constant.

I had 3 master ranked pirates on friday afternoon, but no other deviations from what I stated.

To be extra clear: I m talking about non-mission npc pirates. If I pick up a low ranked mission, the quest npcs will also be low rank.

Well that's obviously a bug - have you reported it?

 

[myrr mac]

No I havnt reported it directly, though it is implied from my tickets with support.

I have however, repeated it in various levels of detail, over 5 times now, on the forums. I have also seen a lot of other commanders confirming high rank pirate interdictions while being low ranked in combat. Its not a new statement, nor is it unique to me, despite the git-gud crowd ignoring it all the time (or outright defending it).

 

[SenatorPerry]

No I havnt reported it directly, though it is implied from my tickets with support.

I have however, repeated it in various levels of detail, over 5 times now, on the forums. I have also seen a lot of other commanders confirming high rank pirate interdictions while being low ranked in combat. Its not a new statement, nor is it unique to me, despite the git-gud crowd ignoring it all the time (or outright defending it).

I think you describe the frustration we are feeling. I watched my wingmates die last night because a pirate NPC (super NPC) attacked while he was carrying fuel limpets in Nanomam (he is Hudson). His FSD went out as well as his life support. He hit repair over and over, but 15 minutes is not enough time for us to equip to come save him unless we are all holding hands together. Even then we would have to fight off the hard pirate NPC. He said frack the game and quit. We have no clue if he will even come back.

We were asked a very simply question in the poll and we responded, but there are a handful of people that insist that we are doing something to bring this upon ourselves. Well, regardless to the game mechanics we want the AI/Logic to support a player's needs. For now we need the pirate NPC to aim to disable a ship instead of destroying it. That is, disable the FSD and then idle while waiting for cargo (similar to the situation in the USS). Either a wingmate can save them, drop cargo, or self destruct. If the pirate is wanted, then hold out until the police arrive. At least then we are forced into a recoverable situation.

 

[frostypaw]

We were asked a very simply question in the poll and we responded, but there are a handful of people that insist that we are doing something to bring this upon ourselves.

I can only apologise if I ever did - this bug's nature has taken a while to come out as it's a bit variable and intermittent so for a long time it hasn't been at all clear if it existed.

People seem in general agreement now though, and I'm sure they've noticed that