Attack Of The Clones (the lack of AI diversity)

Some people complain the NPCs are too easy, others complain they are too hard, my complaint is they are all too "samey". Lately I feel like every NPC pilot I encounter is the same pilot. I'm not just talking in combat. In fact, it's somewhat disconcerting to see passenger ships boosting out of the station and pulling hard Gs as if Tom Cruise is the pilot. When I fly passengers, I purposefully "fly gently" for their comfort. I have similar observations of miners. My alt-CMDR operates on the "other side of the law", and I'm having a hard time believing that a miner in a Type-6 is going to aggressively attack me, even "hunt me down" with their pitiful lasers, all the while spamming "I was just mining!" Then again, why is this miner equipped with SCBs? That's valuable cargo space being wasted!

I would really like to see some AI diversity added to the game, specifically designed to help create the feel of the world the NPCs populate. The majority of NPCs should follow the speed limit inside station limits, for example. Passenger ships and traders should fly "gracefully", and most non-combat ships should act defensively rather than offensively if I attack them. This isn't just about speed, but acceleration, turn rate, mailslot etiquette, etc. But let's not confuse grace with robotic perfection - yes, perfect vertical landings from a mile high, I'm looking at you!

Also, the AI should take into account whether they are flying a small ship or a large ship. I'm pretty sure the majority of NPCs I encounter still believe they are in a Sidewinder, even if they are in a lumbering Anaconda. I sat back and watched some NPC vs NPC battles, and I hate to say it, but it was kinda ugly. I know this is a game, but it would be cool if the AI was graceful, even in combat. I swear I was watching Jar Jar Binks flying that NPC Anaconda, throttle stuck on full, spinning in circles, banging into things. I much rather watch Darth Maul fighting young Obi-wan, even if it isn't as "realistic".

Finally, diversity means different tactics, and even different personalities within each "genre" of piloting. Sure, some pilots are going to be aggressive "pedal to the metal" in-your-face combateers. But others, like myself, will be slower, methodical, using my "battleship" to position for full broadsides using turreted weapons, maneuvering around asteroids to let shields recharge, purposefully increasing the distance to take advantage of longer-range weapons, etc. And the typical miner should just "run" when it's obvious they are outgunned. Now an Elite miner might dodge between asteroids while dropping mines and using defensive rear-facing turrets, all while popping heatsinks and attempting a cool "Han Solo" getaway.

When every ship of every size and type does the same aggressive dance, it doesn't matter how "good" they are, it's still becomes boring gameplay. Not only boring, but silly. Watching an elephant try to do ballet may attract crowds to the circus, but only to laugh at.

Disclaimer - this post is not meant to mock the talents of the developers in charge of the AI. I have faith FDev can make the AI that I, and perhaps you, would like to see. And FWIW, many CMDRs fly like elephants doing ballet, too :p
 
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I suppose i understand what you mean regarding the flight patterns. I'd rather FD at least sort out the other thing you mentioned, like small low level pirates attacking you and saying silly things like "That's the haul i've been looking for!"

Having said that, i have seen the AIs display some brains. Once i was doing a salvage mission and a Python and his wing dropped in with the usual declaration "The trap worked!" or whatever they say. But then he said "Oh, i'm sorry, wrong person" or something and they all jumped out.

That was a nice bit of coding which probably looked at my rank... shame it didn't consider my ship which was about as prepared to take on a Python plus wing as a blind mole rat is prepared to take on a wolf. But hey, don't look a gift horse in the mouth!
 
I suppose i understand what you mean regarding the flight patterns. I'd rather FD at least sort out the other thing you mentioned, like small low level pirates attacking you and saying silly things like "That's the haul i've been looking for!"

Having said that, i have seen the AIs display some brains. Once i was doing a salvage mission and a Python and his wing dropped in with the usual declaration "The trap worked!" or whatever they say. But then he said "Oh, i'm sorry, wrong person" or something and they all jumped out.

That was a nice bit of coding which probably looked at my rank... shame it didn't consider my ship which was about as prepared to take on a Python plus wing as a blind mole rat is prepared to take on a wolf. But hey, don't look a gift horse in the mouth!

Don't get me wrong, the AI is great for certain types of ships. I actually enjoy going after the smaller, "Competent" Cobras and Vipers and other small to medium ships (I'll usually do so in my own Cobra to make it a somewhat fair fight). I just think we need different AI for different ships and professions. Watching an Anaconda, or worse, a Beluga, being piloted by a Viper pilot is what I'm finding particularly immersion-breaking, and kinda boring after awhile. Also, when fighting a Type-6 or Type-7 mining vessel feels exactly like fighting the aforementioned Cobra, it just shatters the illusion.

So yeah, don't get rid of the current AI "pilot", just add more diversity based on type of ship and profession :D
 
True true. I just saw a commander at Farseer who had quite some trouble landing a Mamba. Asked him if he was okay, but I think he was too busy trying to get his ship to do what he wants. I'm not a great pilot by any means. But c'mon when you have the assets to fly a ship like that, you surely must know the basics of flight by now.
 
True true. I just saw a commander at Farseer who had quite some trouble landing a Mamba. Asked him if he was okay, but I think he was too busy trying to get his ship to do what he wants. I'm not a great pilot by any means. But c'mon when you have the assets to fly a ship like that, you surely must know the basics of flight by now.

Well, that specific aspect I don't have a problem with; some NPC pilots should be numpties just for variety, regardless of kit. Monies =/= skills.

Some of the most entertaining death reports from EVE are based on real people who bought their way into an extremely expensive deathtrap instead of the unassailable murdermachine they thought they were instagetting. NPCs should have a few of these heroes in their ranks as part of the overall selection.
 
Well, that specific aspect I don't have a problem with; some NPC pilots should be numpties just for variety, regardless of kit.

I used to go to Eravate just to watch the new players trying to land their various ships (usually Sidewinders, but other stuff too). I think all Harmless NPCs should fly like new players - that would be great!

MoM could also have a ton of fun adding comms lines to this - "How do I put down my landing gear?" "Crap, I didn't mean to activate the boost!!!" "Where is my landing pad?" When I'm talking AI, I'm not talking just combat. In fact, I don't do that much combat - most of my interaction AI is in more peaceful settings, and it would be awesome to see AI emulate actual humans in their given professions, ships, ranks, etc.
 
I used to go to Eravate just to watch the new players trying to land their various ships (usually Sidewinders, but other stuff too). I think all Harmless NPCs should fly like new players - that would be great!

MoM could also have a ton of fun adding comms lines to this - "How do I put down my landing gear?" "Crap, I didn't mean to activate the boost!!!" "Where is my landing pad?" When I'm talking AI, I'm not talking just combat. In fact, I don't do that much combat - most of my interaction AI is in more peaceful settings, and it would be awesome to see AI emulate actual humans in their given professions, ships, ranks, etc.

Oh yeah, I get your vibe. Horses for courses, and not just in a fight. This concept would increase the cool factor of local station traffic and other NPC interactions by a great margin.
 
But let's not confuse grace with robotic perfection - yes, perfect vertical landings from a mile high, I'm looking at you!

I could accept this, if every npc doing those landings had a docking computer. That'd be somewhat realistic for the Belugas at least. It would be nice to see a couple of overshot landings or corrections though.

some NPC pilots should be numpties just for variety, regardless of kit. Monies =/= skills.

It would add a bit of fun into the game if an npc accidentally hit the boost button in a station, hit another ship and got shot by the station guns. It'd feel more real if there was the occasional accident.
 
Don't get me wrong, the AI is great for certain types of ships.

Now that said, there are a bunch of Jar Jar Binks out there. I was "bumped" multiple times by pirates scanning me. It wasn't a tough guy, "Watch it, buddy" maneuver. No, it was, "Meesa canna find tha brakes! Weesa in big doo doo now!"
 
I posted this in another thread, since it ruins flying a small ship for me, but as I thought about it more, it ruins combat in general, and it's 80% the fault of the AI, 20% the fault of engineered NPCs. Here we go:

Since the update dropped (perhaps before), my Imperial Courier, which I use for piracy and general lawlessness (alt-account) is being outmaneuvered by Type-6, Asps, Type-7, even a frelling BELUGA! What the holy heck is this? I should easily be able to stay on the tail of a Beluga, yet it's flipping around like it too is a small fighter... It's absolutely .

I usually fly flight assist on, but I thought NPCs were also restricted to using FA. My IC is modestly engineered with G3 clean drives, and it's pretty nippy, so watching a NPC Type-7 flip over like it's in FA-Off with G5 dirty drives, firing railguns and popping heatsinks, while perhaps more challenging, totally ruins the immersion and gameplay of small ship vs. large ship combat.

I'm guessing this is Frontier's answer to the "NPCs are too easy" complaint... Well it's a sucky answer. A Beluga full of passengers shouldn't be a tough combat opponent, but rather a tough "stop him before he jumps away" opponent. I'm pretty sure the Beluga I fought tonight killed all the passengers with those high-G maneuvers. Not to mention all these ships are armed to the teeth, and they are all piloted by the same ridiculously aggressive AI. Doesn't Frontier realize that the average miner / trader / passenger pilot needs a different AI than the average pirate? That Beluga (and all the other traders and miners who have fallen to my criminal alter-ego) should have run, popping heat sinks and chaff and perhaps even a SCB. Better yet, it should have dropped mines while running - that would have been epic (and something I've never seen). But instead it whips around like a pirate flying a Viper, something I see over and over, and it's ruining the game IMO.

I wish I could still play in open, because I think I'd go attack some CMDR traders just to experience a proper artificial intelligence. I've taken out a variety of traders flying different size ships in my humble iEagle back when I was in open (all via legitimate PowerPlay rules of engagement). LOL, once I took out a Type-6 while flying my Dolphin, and another time I beat a CMDR flying a Chieftain in my not-so-humble Sidewinder! How? Using those advantages of a small ship to stick to the tail of less experiences players in bigger ships.

And yet here I am complaining about NPCs.... The "EVERY AI is an Elite Pirate AI" along with giving NPCs engineered ships with FA-off capability has ruined combat in the game for me. Is this really want players wanted? If so, congratulations, you've turned Elite Dangerous into just another arcade game.

It's got me upset enough that I'm about to just give up combat altogether. Artificial, fake difficulty is much worse than "too easy".
 
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In some of the Forza racing games on Xbox, the NPCs you race against are actually based on real life players and their driving skills - which explains why, right now, a NPC based on me is probably skidding off the track again in Forza 5, 6 and 7.

I wonder if something like that would work in ED.
 
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In some of the Forza racing games on Xbox, the NPCs you race against are actually based on real life players and their driving skills - which explains why, right now, a NPC based on me is probably skidding off the track again in Forza 5, 6 and 7.

I wonder if something like that would work in ED.

Even if some basic human logic was programmed into the AI, that would be a wonderful change. When I was mining in my battleship Conda, I would stand my ground and fight. When I'm mining in a Type-7, I hightail and run. When I'm hauling passengers, I run extra fast, because I know these passengers will freak out at the first scan or ding to the hull.

And when I am engaging in combat, I fly very differently when in my sluggish Conda or Cutter than I do when in an SLF. Watching every NPC fight using the exact same maneuvers and tactics is very immersion-breaking. The AI is perfect for a angry pirate in a Viper. Using that same AI for a Conda, or worse, a BELUGA, that's just terrible. Going back to your example, imagine if Forza racing games used the same AI from their race cars for a school bus driver, LOL.
 
Even if some basic human logic was programmed into the AI, that would be a wonderful change. When I was mining in my battleship Conda, I would stand my ground and fight. When I'm mining in a Type-7, I hightail and run. When I'm hauling passengers, I run extra fast, because I know these passengers will freak out at the first scan or ding to the hull.

And when I am engaging in combat, I fly very differently when in my sluggish Conda or Cutter than I do when in an SLF. Watching every NPC fight using the exact same maneuvers and tactics is very immersion-breaking. The AI is perfect for a angry pirate in a Viper. Using that same AI for a Conda, or worse, a BELUGA, that's just terrible. Going back to your example, imagine if Forza racing games used the same AI from their race cars for a school bus driver, LOL.

Not to detract from your point, but I knew a city bus driver like that. :D He used to do donuts in the parking lot in the winter time when only the "cool" people were on the bus. Busdonuts are fun!
 
Not to detract from your point, but I knew a city bus driver like that. :D He used to do donuts in the parking lot in the winter time when only the "cool" people were on the bus. Busdonuts are fun!

I think he upgraded his bus to a Beluga, based on my encounter last night. [haha]
 
I have noticed a few peculiar ship specific behaviors from the NPCs. I noticed npc FDLs tend to be idiots who struggle to bring their guns to bear, instead they boost around in big loops and strait lines. I rarely ever take damage from them. NPC federal ships and chieftains though will relentlessly face tank you, ram you and generally suicidally face hug you. It's obvious they are just programmed to hurt you as much as possible before they die. I encountered a FAS once that for some reason had its hardpoints glitched. It couldn't shoot but thought it was fighting. I studied how it flew and was kind of annoyed. They are face tanking space turrets that pitch too fast for any kind of effective counter meneuver.
 
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I've submitted a bug report here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/472550-AI-is-Broken

which has been confirmed here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/464288-Scan-n-ram-is-back-Again

I was about to give up on combat altogether, but like so many bugs in this game, I've found a clever way to mitigate the problem. Normally I run a combo of fixed and gimbaled weapons on my smaller ships, which is good for "stick to their six" combat. Since NPCs now have engineered thrusters and can perform perfect FA-Off flips (who knew the Keelback was so nimble), this style of combat is all but removed for an FA-on DS4 pilot like myself. So I replaced the gimbals with turrets, which I shamelessly engineered to compensate for the loss of dps, and now I'm flying a "joust and orbit" pattern, which has been incredibly effective and surprisingly fun.

While people laugh at turrets on smaller ships, I actually like them for a few reasons. First, gimbals on projectile weapons require you aim ahead of the target for them to lock, which means I have to choose between firing the gimbaled projectiles or the fixed beam. Turrets don't suffer this disadvantage, allowing me to bring all guns to bear on the target. Second, it's 3305, not 1905! I enjoy being able to fly more "strategically" rather than just joust and stick loop-de-loops for 10 minutes straight.

The best part is, and perhaps this was just coincidence (I'll try again today), ships aren't spamming chaff against my turrets like they were my gimbals. Shhh, don't tell Frontier - they only fix the "good" bugs, LOL.

My immersion is still being "damaged", but my own change in tactics actually cause the AI to also change tactics (less FA-off flips), thus reducing the perceived ridiculousness of PvE combat.

TL;DR - I found a way to still enjoy combat despite the current broken AI.
 
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I posted this in another thread, since it ruins flying a small ship for me, but as I thought about it more, it ruins combat in general, and it's 80% the fault of the AI, 20% the fault of engineered NPCs. Here we go:

Since the update dropped (perhaps before), my Imperial Courier, which I use for piracy and general lawlessness (alt-account) is being outmaneuvered by Type-6, Asps, Type-7, even a frelling BELUGA! What the holy heck is this? I should easily be able to stay on the tail of a Beluga, yet it's flipping around like it too is a small fighter... It's absolutely .

I usually fly flight assist on, but I thought NPCs were also restricted to using FA. My IC is modestly engineered with G3 clean drives, and it's pretty nippy, so watching a NPC Type-7 flip over like it's in FA-Off with G5 dirty drives, firing railguns and popping heatsinks, while perhaps more challenging, totally ruins the immersion and gameplay of small ship vs. large ship combat.

I'm guessing this is Frontier's answer to the "NPCs are too easy" complaint... Well it's a sucky answer. A Beluga full of passengers shouldn't be a tough combat opponent, but rather a tough "stop him before he jumps away" opponent. I'm pretty sure the Beluga I fought tonight killed all the passengers with those high-G maneuvers. Not to mention all these ships are armed to the teeth, and they are all piloted by the same ridiculously aggressive AI. Doesn't Frontier realize that the average miner / trader / passenger pilot needs a different AI than the average pirate? That Beluga (and all the other traders and miners who have fallen to my criminal alter-ego) should have run, popping heat sinks and chaff and perhaps even a SCB. Better yet, it should have dropped mines while running - that would have been epic (and something I've never seen). But instead it whips around like a pirate flying a Viper, something I see over and over, and it's ruining the game IMO.

I wish I could still play in open, because I think I'd go attack some CMDR traders just to experience a proper artificial intelligence. I've taken out a variety of traders flying different size ships in my humble iEagle back when I was in open (all via legitimate PowerPlay rules of engagement). LOL, once I took out a Type-6 while flying my Dolphin, and another time I beat a CMDR flying a Chieftain in my not-so-humble Sidewinder! How? Using those advantages of a small ship to stick to the tail of less experiences players in bigger ships.

And yet here I am complaining about NPCs.... The "EVERY AI is an Elite Pirate AI" along with giving NPCs engineered ships with FA-off capability has ruined combat in the game for me. Is this really want players wanted? If so, congratulations, you've turned Elite Dangerous into just another arcade game.

It's got me upset enough that I'm about to just give up combat altogether. Artificial, fake difficulty is much worse than "too easy".

I like your new sig. :)
 
I used to go to Eravate just to watch the new players trying to land their various ships (usually Sidewinders, but other stuff too). I think all Harmless NPCs should fly like new players - that would be great!

MoM could also have a ton of fun adding comms lines to this - "How do I put down my landing gear?" "Crap, I didn't mean to activate the boost!!!" "Where is my landing pad?" When I'm talking AI, I'm not talking just combat. In fact, I don't do that much combat - most of my interaction AI is in more peaceful settings, and it would be awesome to see AI emulate actual humans in their given professions, ships, ranks, etc.

Have we considered that such numpty NPC questions could be responded to by other, slightly more Competent NPCs in the default chat channel such that new players get live, in-game tips such as "Look at your compass! Above and left of the scanner." in case there aren't any helpful live players nearby?

Significant chunks of the manual nobody ever reads could be covertly snuck into the actual game play in the absence of a dedicated global (galaxy wide) /help channel which I'm sure some players would be quite happy to monitor for baby seals in distress and repeatedly offer pertinent and timely answers to the steady barrage of identical "I skipped the tutorial" questions that frequently arise.

Maybe you could dedicate a dev or six to a permanent "GM" capacity to moderate such a channel, or even promote a small selection of players in each time zone, who've previously demonstrated their /help~fulness to said on-payroll GMs within such channel with a different coloured name in chat to indicate a level of trust in their feedback?

Over time the player base would learn how to repeat such mantras as "Squadron recruiting is not permitted in the /help channel!" and "The /help channel is for ED related Q&A ONLY, not assembling a gank posse to hold your hand and kill things for you!". Some players may even be willing to complete a voluntary FDev NDA and donate their time for free to /help~ing on-ramp YOUR NEW CUSTOMERS...

Something, anything to reduce the incline on the learning cliff!
 
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