Autocannons as a replacement for Class 3-4 multicannons

Poy · Mar 24, 2015

I really like where this thread is going !

[video=youtube;qxVOclDHI9Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxVOclDHI9Y[/video]

Also, DO WANT casings ejected into space !

Midgardsormr · Mar 24, 2015

Darth Ender said:
considering you can two shot an unshielded anaconda (albeit, npc) with the current weapons. An even more powerful weapon isn't really warranted. Maybe when more scary ships are introduced or perhaps when destroying a cap ship is possible.

I don't think it's an ask for a more powerful weapon, but for filling a gap in the current loadout options. A higher velocity and rate of fire in exchange for less damage. There isn't currently much of an option for the "spray and pray" style of combat at Class 3.

Rabidweasel · Mar 25, 2015

I can't be the only person who reads this discussion and walks away from it thinking "why don't we just make cannons shoot a faster projectile more rapidly and balance the damage per shot from there", right? We already have railguns and Plasma Accelerators in the role of 2 different flavours of slow shooting, hard hitting projectile weapons and cannons are almost painful to use even if they can sometimes do great damage. I don't see why we need to make a whole new weapon type to fill a slightly different role which is just a minor reimagining of one of the existing weapon classes.

Intents · Mar 25, 2015

shameless self promotion

Definitely think we could do with an Auto-Cannon that sits between the MC and the Cannon....say 2-3 rounds per second, better armour pen than the multi and faster projectile speed than the cannon. Available in C2,C3,C4 sizes. Maybe 10-20 round mag and 400 max ammo

from this thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=127868&page=2

Ghost1 · Mar 25, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar81hcTzbis

well an autocannon is more like this...

or the ones fitted on BMP-'s

Rich Bramwell · Mar 25, 2015

While I agree in theory that the Auto cannon is needed to fill a slot between said cannon and multi cannons. I would still prefer to see the procedural weapon/module code to be worked on rather than just ''plugging the gaps'' in the current ships weapon selection. This would effectively add hundreds perhaps thousands of variations of weapon/module that would encompass Alien technology too I feel. To have some items in the galaxy that feel rare, they have to be rare, when the current variety is available to me fairly easily because there is a fixed amount of starter weapons/modules that all I need is credits and a couple of hours to search for them, it leaves me thinking the only true way to add depth to the ships load-outs is to put the time into the code for the procedural system......just my ramblings.

Intents · Mar 25, 2015

While I agree in theory that the Auto cannon is needed to fill a slot between said cannon and multi cannons. I would still prefer to see the procedural weapon/module code to be worked on rather than just ''plugging the gaps'' in the current ships weapon selection. This would effectively add hundreds perhaps thousands of variations of weapon/module that would encompass Alien technology too I feel. To have some items in the galaxy that feel rare, they have to be rare, when the current variety is available to me fairly easily because there is a fixed amount of starter weapons/modules that all I need is credits and a couple of hours to search for them, it leaves me thinking the only true way to add depth to the ships load-outs is to put the time into the code for the procedural system......just my ramblings

All true . Although we dont know how the weapon system works they may need certain Archetype/Base weapons and models to work with and modify .In other words the larger the pool of weapon types the larger the number of varients the procedural system can produce

Nereus · Mar 25, 2015

I like your idea, OP! Rep to you!

And thank you, Sandro, for considering it!

Troa Barton · Mar 25, 2015

Sandro Sammarco said:
Hello Commander Star-Hunter!

I agree, the Bofor appears to look/sound like a larger version of the Flak 38 and seems to retain a similar fire rate. Possibly we'd want to go for something with a slightly slower fire rate, but increased/variable burst length.

For me I think there's something fundamentally frightening about a steady, drum-beat fire rate, especially if the burst is long enough to make it sound like doom is inevitable.

Bofor all the way for class 3 but for looks a second barrel would look amazing on a conda or Python
[video=youtube_share;dSp7CipN1pw]http://youtu.be/dSp7CipN1pw[/video]
for the class 4 the GAU-8 is fitting imagine that on an FDL
[video=youtube_share;pHv50lXfDHQ]http://youtu.be/pHv50lXfDHQ[/video]

Darth Ender · Mar 25, 2015

Midgardsormr said:
I don't think it's an ask for a more powerful weapon, but for filling a gap in the current loadout options. A higher velocity and rate of fire in exchange for less damage. There isn't currently much of an option for the "spray and pray" style of combat at Class 3.

Should there be? being horrible at aiming should be what keeps someone from easily progressing in combat roles. We shouldn't be giving them more crutches at the higher levels. Skill > propping up

Star-Hunter · Mar 25, 2015

Shyeer Alvarin said:
If we want multi-barrel, why not have a firing rate on each barrel of one second, equaling out to four rounds per second, per hardpoint this would give a realistic rechamber timing for each cannon.

this could work for the C4 huge hardpoint, but i suppose firingrates should be balanced towards quick burst / longer magazine reload

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Huros said:
Maybe something similar to the 40mm Cannon on the C130s in MW3? that sort of rate of fire but needs a bassy thud to it and more of a longer die down after firing. Needs more low freq noise. -At least for the Class3 cannon and maybe sound similar to the 105mm from same game for the Class 4. At least that sort of sound difference. (forgive me not had inexperience withstand engineering but i know what i like and BIG DAKKA DAKKA SHOOTAS is what i like.

the 40mm rapid firing gun on the AC130U is a BOFORS
the 105mm is a howitzer

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aRtFuL said:
So... the lead designer says he likes the concept and yet there andyraptor being a troll.

So sorry who are you again andyraptor and please explain why is your opinion more important? lol

Leave him be he does not know better

Star-Hunter · Mar 25, 2015

Darth Ender said:
considering you can two shot an unshielded anaconda (albeit, npc) with the current weapons. An even more powerful weapon isn't really warranted. Maybe when more scary ships are introduced or perhaps when destroying a cap ship is possible.

Rather than have a weapon's race of moar powah. I'd like to see weapons with more specialized effects that augment different roles in the game specifically. Though I dont think I'd let go of my cannon. Though, the idea of aural pornography should come to big bertha as well. The boom from within my ship of that cannon should be deafening and rock the ship a bit.

I suppose you havent read the thread from the beginning either. If you did you would know that the maximum proposed damage for the burst (if all stars line up) equals the dmg/shot of an equivalent class cannon.

Vasious · Mar 25, 2015

Sandro Sammarco said:
Hello Commander Kaeldian!

The only issue with a multiple barrel/weapon setup up is that I suspect the idea behind it would be to effectively increase the fire rate of the platform, which would possibly make the weapon more comparable to a very large multi-cannon.

What I find attractive about these weapons is that they potentially fit a role between cannons and multi-cannons and could feel reasonable different to both.

Of course, I've no problem with a weapon that happens to feature multiple barrels, as long as the overall fire rate could retain a paced, signature "boom, boom, boom, boom" feel.

Sounds brilliant, imagining a Elite Version of the QF-2 pounder "Pom Pom" gun with the cone shaped muzzle

Doctor Axel said:
It actually struck me immediately that there is neither recoil nor impulse from kinetic weapons. Firing a cannon should give a pretty substantial push, as should getting struck by a cannon slug.

If I'm in a Derpwinder and I get broadsided by a Class 3 cannon, I should spin like Darth Vader off in some random direction. =P

Never been hit by a Rail Gun when flying sidewinder with FAOFF?
Whhhheeeeeeeh!

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Poy said:
Also, DO WANT casings ejected into space !

From all the kinetic/chemical based weapons!

Star-Hunter · Mar 25, 2015

Rabidweasel said:
I can't be the only person who reads this discussion and walks away from it thinking "why don't we just make cannons shoot a faster projectile more rapidly and balance the damage per shot from there", right? We already have railguns and Plasma Accelerators in the role of 2 different flavours of slow shooting, hard hitting projectile weapons and cannons are almost painful to use even if they can sometimes do great damage. I don't see why we need to make a whole new weapon type to fill a slightly different role which is just a minor reimagining of one of the existing weapon classes.

well, auto-cannons function and feel totaly differently from cannons. They have a different role too.
Cannons are meant to be accurate and hard hitting, sacrificing flexibility and reload speed
Auto-cannons are by design in accurate and do less dmg/shot, but have higher rate of fire and are more flexible.
Basically, they are designed to maximise the chances to do dmg (any amount of dmg) to a target. Where as cannons are designed to deliver the highest amount of dmg/impact.

Star-Hunter · Mar 25, 2015

Rich Bramwell said:
While I agree in theory that the Auto cannon is needed to fill a slot between said cannon and multi cannons. I would still prefer to see the procedural weapon/module code to be worked on rather than just ''plugging the gaps'' in the current ships weapon selection. This would effectively add hundreds perhaps thousands of variations of weapon/module that would encompass Alien technology too I feel. To have some items in the galaxy that feel rare, they have to be rare, when the current variety is available to me fairly easily because there is a fixed amount of starter weapons/modules that all I need is credits and a couple of hours to search for them, it leaves me thinking the only true way to add depth to the ships load-outs is to put the time into the code for the procedural system......just my ramblings.

Procedural generation is based on random modification of Archetypes.

For PG to be viable and meaningful, you need multiple archetypes (the more the better) that you are going to modify.
For PG to be balanced, the archetypes must be balanced too, and they can only be modified within predetermined boundaries.

This is why you need as many distinct weapons as possible BEFORE PG can be implemented

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Nereus said:
I like your idea, OP! Rep to you!

And thank you, Sandro, for considering it!

Thank you, but the mission of this thread was to promote an idea and you guys made it possible

So thank all of you

Star-Hunter · Mar 25, 2015

Darth Ender said:
Should there be? being horrible at aiming should be what keeps someone from easily progressing in combat roles. We shouldn't be giving them more crutches at the higher levels. Skill > propping up

actually spray and pray refers more to flak cannons.
and the inaccuracy does not make the weapons better, it just lowers their skill cap. So, the fact that you do not need precise aim to hit some one 1 out of 5 shots while pinpoint accuracy with said weapon would yield 2 or3 hits out of 5 shots, does not make sniping with accurate weapons irrelevant or underpowered.

Rabidweasel · Mar 25, 2015

Star-Hunter said:
well, auto-cannons function and feel totaly differently from cannons. They have a different role too.
Cannons are meant to be accurate and hard hitting, sacrificing flexibility and reload speed
Auto-cannons are by design in accurate and do less dmg/shot, but have higher rate of fire and are more flexible.
Basically, they are designed to maximise the chances to do dmg (any amount of dmg) to a target. Where as cannons are designed to deliver the highest amount of dmg/impact.

Railguns and plasma accelerators also fill this role, why do we need both them and cannons to do the same thing? The fact that people aren't really using railguns much if at all due to tiny ammo capacity is an entirely different issue which should really be addressed.

Razorwire · Mar 25, 2015

For those saying that skill should trump spray and pray; why does the large pulse laser have a high rate of fire?

@sandro, what is it about multi cannon that doesn't scale well?
If its the model, what's wrong with multiple mediums on a single mount and trigger, and if it's the weapon stats, why can't they be adjusted?

I loved the multi cannon in small and medium, and would like to keep using it in the large mounts. There is however no reason to fit a medium mc where I could fit a large pulse laser.

Star-Hunter · Mar 25, 2015

Rabidweasel said:
Railguns and plasma accelerators also fill this role, why do we need both them and cannons to do the same thing? The fact that people aren't really using railguns much if at all due to tiny ammo capacity is an entirely different issue which should really be addressed.

well although, they fill the same role(more or less), all three have a very distinctive play-style
Railguns : instant hit, but the charge-then-fire system makes them a difficult weapon to master (requires exceptional target tracking or good timing), fixed only
PA: (compared to regular cannon) slower projectile velocity, longer reload, requires more power, but more effective against shields, more dmg/shot also fixed only

Star-Hunter · Mar 25, 2015

Razorwire said:
For those saying that skill should trump spray and pray; why does the large pulse laser have a high rate of fire?

@sandro, what is it about multi cannon that doesn't scale well?
If its the model, what's wrong with multiple mediums on a single mount and trigger, and if it's the weapon stats, why can't they be adjusted?

I loved the multi cannon in small and medium, and would like to keep using it in the large mounts. There is however no reason to fit a medium mc where I could fit a large pulse laser.

Pulse laser is not a spray and pray weapon

the problem with the multicannons i belive is the ability to spam-fire them. It can be scaled but it does not work well from overall game design stand-point.
They can create a wall of projectiles that cant really be dodged, and wreck fighters. in other words too OP and game breaking.