Autopilot thread

I was also one that voted NO on autopilot in Kickstarter. it not needed and still not needed if people use common sense.
Well let hear them? How can they combat them?

Common sense? Mate, what are you on about? We are talking about automation to free up capacity for the operator, an idea that was first implemented in the 1930's, something that is part of our reality.

Whilst the OP might be talking about a particular scenario, and yes you are correct, they do have other options, the A/P discussion covers a much broader spectrum. I would find an autopilot beneficial, not because I hate flying these ships, not because I hate exploring in ED, I don't even hate manually jumping, I took a frikin T9 to SagA* a few months after the game released, and enjoyed every minute of it, can you remember what it was like to travel anywhere back then?

My only issue is your side seems to be against any form of A/P for rather strange reasons, you seem to think implementing an A/P must mean a big red Autopilot ON button, leaving the CMDR to go AWOL for as long as he want's.

BOTS are currently used because they are simple ON off Devices and as far as I am aware they need to be able to read the users screen in order to steer the ship. If in A/P was built in, the devs need only to take the most basic parts of how real world autopilots work.

A. Make the A/P work in sub modes, not a case of one button makes the ship AI flown with no further input.

B. Use a pilot response system, whilst used in the real world to ensure pilots don't fall asleep whilst on autopilot, the same thing can be applied to ensure cmdrs are still at the controls. Whilst the autopilot is engaged, at any time it can trigger a subtle audible and visual request for the crew to respond, in the case of ED the request can be completely random 'Open the right system panel and check the cargo page' 'Move the throttle out of the autopilot range and back in' 'hold down 2nd fire button for 1 second'

The pilot response system can be triggered once an hour, once every two hours, or twice in the space of 30mins, it is completely random along with the action required. You can't build a macro to deal with that. If no response is received the ship is dropped to normal space. Should be noted that like in the real world, if the crew member was interacting with the machine as they should be, the chances of getting a pilot response request is incredibly low.

C. Give the autopilot a random chance of failure, just like the real world. A failure of the A/P whilst in high speed SC can result in a severe emergency drop if left unattended, anyone who is at the helm ready to take over can avoid a dropout, continue in SC and re-engage the A/P if necessary.
 
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I've witnessed and took part a lot of autopilot discussions, and I had seen a lot of, let's say, half-thought arguments against its implementation. In this post, I'll try to categorize and debunk most of those.

I will point out some statements as follows:

1. Autopilot for this game is already available as an external software in many variations.

2. Most of activities in this game involves traveling between star systems to various, sometimes quite excessive degrees, especially with the introduction of engineering.
Presence of capability of limiting yourself to activities in one star system does not make this point invalid.​

3. Amount of activities in this game which have massive amounts of jumps between star systems as a meaningful and delightful part of the experience is limited. (namely exploration and exploration missions).

4. Combat currently is the most engaging and fleshed-out part of the game. Not travel between two systems.

5. By human nature, any process tends to get boring with excessive repetition.
This is true even for sex, let alone pressing the same button after circling some star.

Specifically about "Not wanting to play the game".
Let's take GTA. It has taxi since VC or SA, don't quite remember.
Is driving in GTA integral to gameplay? :D. Not even talking that it is way more engaging than circling star and pressing J.
Yet GTA has a taxi service in it. Cause you might not want to drive in GTA all the time despite it being a core feature.
And same goes for ED. And ED not having an autopilot is just dumb. It's unwise. I don't even quite understand why I have to explain this.

6. Time and energy which people can spend on playing this game varies, and in some cases may be insufficient to progress meaningfully, mainly because of jumping involved.

7. Autopilot implementation may vary in functionality and limitations.
Please consider this.
For example, how autopilot which won't turn on with cargo on board can be abused for trading or PP.
On exploration, its a matter of improving exploration gameplay mostly. And they had already taken steps against honking. Which, because of botting, affected all, as usual. Instead of targeting botters only.

8. Controlling effectiveness and consequences of external software effect on gameplay and BGS is much harder than controlling those parameters of an in-game function.
Let's imagine what would be if autopilot function would be legitimately present in-game instead of it being illegally added externally.
a) Trading.​
By point 1, people can already bot trade if they really want. Firstly, with autopilot being implemented in-game full-on trade automation can simply be made unavailable.
Even if in-game limited autopilot be supplemented with externally-provided functionality to enable full auto trade, obstacles which make full-auto trading unprofitable or straight up impossible can be placed, i.e. increased pirate activity, malfunctions, slow docking/undocking, even captcha on 3rd and further trade per hour; and they will touch only people which do use autopilot as in-game core functionality is in use and its usage obviously is registered. Detecting botting at the moment is almost impossible.
b) Powerplay/BGS​
Same as above, actually. Adding to that, the effect of botting on those aspects of the game can be made to be automatically counteracted to roll back a large part of it, either blatantly or by usage of NPCs. The situation will actually improve, I belive (or why are easiest to bot their way through powerplay factions are most influential?).​

9. Any function can be implemented as an optional for gameplay.
Anyone which have some daoistic view on traveling can opt to not use the autopilot. I remember trying to get out from LHS 3447 without jumping despite knowing how to, and was set on not using jumps at all as this, as I've thought, will make my gameplay experience better. Unfortunately, ships do not move faster than 2001 ls/s.:)

10. Lack of content in the game is obvious as it is, and unavailability of an autopilot doesn't make the situation better.

11. Autopilot function not being available in this game is unnatural, especially when it's already present in-game by lore (unmanned ship takeoff from planets) and technically (NPC movements), as well as it is long being present in today's technology IRL.
Imagine how GTA would be successful if it didn't have bowling, arcade machines, etc. Hell, GTA5 even have a stock market. Who cares if many do not use this stuff more than once. It helps immersion, even more, it creates immersion.
If this game looks realistically, its hard for the imagination to make you belive that there are more happening than you see. All of it would have sort of worked if the player was presented as part of the military, with limited activity specter and with limitations created by some military statute, which are quite often stupid and go overboard. But its not the case in this game. So not having things which are supposed to be here but are not present kills immersion pretty fast, in two weeks in my case. Imagine all that realistic party in FFXV lining up in a row and attacking in turns. That just doesn't work. With all those limitations, this game looks like NES Super Mario with realistic graphics.​

I may update this post in case I've missed something.
Please read the whole post, or better yet, think before replying.

By the way, reasonable ship transfer costs and transfers along with a pilot and no cargo would be a sufficient fix, but there are other pluses to autopilot's implementation as well.

I could write the code for a basic jump sequencer in my sleep, and you'll find them in many contemporary sci fi novels.

That said, I'd prefer longer jump rangers like in Star Wars and Star Trek, jumps that last a few minutes giving me time to get out of the commander chair and work on my ship ;-)
 
I could write the code for a basic jump sequencer in my sleep, and you'll find them in many contemporary sci fi novels.

That said, I'd prefer longer jump rangers like in Star Wars and Star Trek, jumps that last a few minutes giving me time to get out of the commander chair and work on my ship ;-)

I had hoped for a seamless galaxy, high speed super-cruise to other stars, scanning anomalies in deep space. Whilst the jump sequence is well done visually, it gets tiring steering around stars constantly, It's like a constant mini game if you want to get anywhere. There is a reason everyone wants the highest jump range.
 
Autopilot does not equal not playing the game, you still have to be aware of what is happening. That means you can't go walk the dog if autopilot comes with certain restrictions like not being able to scoop fuel and beating interdictions. It would be a good feature that one would be able to turn on and off if you only want to reach a place fast or you are doing a lot of trading. And it shouild be fully optional because just as one an get a bit bored of jumping one can also get a bit bored when everything is done automatically.

That being said it should only be allowed when the game is turned on. It's functionality should be basic meaning no auto docking. If you have a docking computer or anything similiar you would still have to slow down. Once you exit supercruise autopiloting should be disabled. So it's not letting the game play it self. It should be an actual gameplay mechanic. I think it's strange that modern day aircraft has this but not space ships that are so advanced they can travel to one end of the galaxy to another in a matter of hours. There are alot of functions missing i believe should be in the game like visual help changing the canopy to infrared or night vision mode and so on.
 
Autopilot does not equal not playing the game, you still have to be aware of what is happening. That means you can't go walk the dog if autopilot comes with certain restrictions like not being able to scoop fuel and beating interdictions. It would be a good feature that one would be able to turn on and off if you only want to reach a place fast or you are doing a lot of trading. And it shouild be fully optional because just as one an get a bit bored of jumping one can also get a bit bored when everything is done automatically.

That being said it should only be allowed when the game is turned on. It's functionality should be basic meaning no auto docking. If you have a docking computer or anything similiar you would still have to slow down. Once you exit supercruise autopiloting should be disabled. So it's not letting the game play it self. It should be an actual gameplay mechanic. I think it's strange that modern day aircraft has this but not space ships that are so advanced they can travel to one end of the galaxy to another in a matter of hours. There are alot of functions missing i believe should be in the game like visual help changing the canopy to infrared or night vision mode and so on.

For many people, autopilot itself is not botting. Autopilot simply lowers the bar to botting, until even a toddler can hop over it. Currently, people have to seek out and find programs that will fly the ship for you. When an autopilot is in the game, you can make an automatic explorer by setting a course in the galaxy map, choose “economical” route, and put a penny holding the key you set to “fire” down. Don’t even need 3rd party software.

If it doesn’t scoop fuel? Not a problem! Fit extra tanks.

Any attempt to add drawbacks to using an autopilot will fail to stop botting, unless they approach “catcha” levels, at which point using an autopilot would be so annoying that no one would want to use it.

This is a multi-player game. The influence you can have on the galaxy is directly proportional to how much time you have to play the game. The average player gets about ten hours a week to play the game. With botting, you can “play” the game 24/7, for a total of 168 hours every week. Even if the bot were half as effective as a human player, that still gives that “player” eight times the influence over the BGS Sim, Powerplay, or even just more money with which to evade the consequences, as little as they are, of C&P.

Lets not even go into multi-boxing with multiple accounts.

Oh... one more thing.

It would be a good feature that one would be able to turn on and off if you only want to reach a place fast or you are doing a lot of trading.

An autopilot should never faster than a pilot actively piloting their ship. It shouldn’t even be faster than the “cruise control” method, which can double your travel time as it is.
 
Any attempt to add drawbacks to using an autopilot will fail to stop botting, unless they approach “catcha” levels, at which point using an autopilot would be so annoying that no one would want to use it.

This is a multi-player game. The influence you can have on the galaxy is directly proportional to how much time you have to play the game. The average player gets about ten hours a week to play the game. With botting, you can “play” the game 24/7, for a total of 168 hours every week. Even if the bot were half as effective as a human player, that still gives that “player” eight times the influence over the BGS Sim, Powerplay, or even just more money with which to evade the consequences, as little as they are, of C&P.

Lets not even go into multi-boxing with multiple accounts.

Oh... one more thing.



An autopilot should never faster than a pilot actively piloting their ship. It shouldn’t even be faster than the “cruise control” method, which can double your travel time as it is.

No offence, but what is your standpoint? I'm a programmer, for instance, and I do belive that adding autopilot will only help to defuse all that botting situation. How about a simple captcha on sequence start only?

Moreover, I understand that concern about one person supervising multiple autopilots. As in-game functionality is in use, it would be easier to trace overuses.

And yes, I've never said anything about faster.
 
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I'll answer properly once I get home. I said fast, not faster. What i meant was as fast as the game lets you while piloting your ship normally, unless stated otherwise by the pilot.

And just to make things clear if the pilot wants the AP to go slower then that should be possible but the ship can't move any faster than it's max speed both in real space and supercruise.
 
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I'm missing an Autopilot as well.

I wouldn't mind, if it was slower to some degree, or would use much more fuel, so you have to manually fuelscoop more often, like every 5-6 jumps.

Why I'd want this, is because travelling becomes repetetive - especially when you do like 30-40 jumps - that kind of lowers the fun I have in the game.
 
No offence, but what is your standpoint? I'm a programmer, for instance, and I do belive that adding autopilot will only help to defuse all that botting situation. How about a simple captcha on sequence start only?

No offense taken. My standpoint is that I have been playing online games for nearly 25 years now, and I have seen way too many games' balance destroyed by bot users. Online games need to be balanced around the average player. A "player" who can be online 24/7, able to repeat the same action over and over again, is as far above the super-user as the super-user is above the average player. They destroy economies, make mockeries of any kind of PvP balance, especially in the applications of "softer" power, and if left unchecked will drive away the player base, because they can't compete with cheats.

As such, I fail to see how making it easier to bot will somehow "defuse" the botting situation. Instead, it will make a botting situation worse. The only way to add an autopilot without increasing the number of bots is to make it so worthless, nobody would be willing to use it in the first place.

Moreover, I understand that concern about one person supervising multiple autopilots. As in-game functionality is in use, it would be easier to trace overuses.

I fail to see how.

And yes, I've never said anything about faster.

No, you didn't. The poster I was replying to, however, did.

I'll answer properly once I get home. I said fast, not faster. What i meant was as fast as the game lets you while piloting your ship normally, unless stated otherwise by the pilot.

No. Just no.

"As fast as the game lets you" is considerably faster than most players are capable of doing on their own. The best supercruise pilots, where the skill of the player can't be augmented via outfitting or engineering, can easily cut the amount of time it takes to get anywhere nearly in half, verses the "forum recommended" technique.

And just to make things clear if the pilot wants the AP to go slower then that should be possible but the ship can't move any faster than it's max speed both in real space and supercruise.

We're probably talking two different things here, but I'm talking about technique, not max speed. If you know actually know how to fly, you can travel from station to station in a little over three minutes... or a little under four if you're flying a T-9, the lumbering cosmic bovine.
 

Lestat

Banned
No offense taken. My standpoint is that I have been playing online games for nearly 25 years now, and I have seen way too many games' balance destroyed by bot users. Online games need to be balanced around the average player. A "player" who can be online 24/7, able to repeat the same action over and over again, is as far above the super-user as the super-user is above the average player. They destroy economies, make mockeries of any kind of PvP balance, especially in the applications of "softer" power, and if left unchecked will drive away the player base, because they can't compete with cheats.

As such, I fail to see how making it easier to bot will somehow "defuse" the botting situation. Instead, it will make a botting situation worse. The only way to add an autopilot without increasing the number of bots is to make it so worthless, nobody would be willing to use it in the first place.
I agree with you 100% I don't think the people here understand how adanced Bots have become.
 
As such, I fail to see how making it easier to bot will somehow "defuse" the botting situation. Instead, it will make a botting situation worse. The only way to add an autopilot without increasing the number of bots is to make it so worthless, nobody would be willing to use it in the first place.

I fail to see how.

a) By terms of decreasing demand increasing cost and decreasing supply for external bots.
And please do me a favor and explain how would you overcome captcha at the start of each 15-minute autopilot session to make it usable for botting.

b) Sigh...
SystemAutopilot users which were docking in the system and
% of game time autopilot was used by each of them
Activity (links)IP address
(Yes, I know it can be faked).
EravateDavidBraben123, 99,9%
DavidBraben666, 99,9%
DavidBraben999, 99,9%
link
link
link
192.168.0.1
192.168.0.1
192.168.0.1
Prolly too quick and dirty. Yet data tables like those would be automatically generated for GMs to use. Maybe they would not be able to prove bot use for each case to issue shadowban. But for sure they will be able to repair the damage done fast.
 
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Lestat

Banned
a) By terms of decreasing demand increasing cost and decreasing supply.
And please do me a favor and explain how would you overcome captcha at the start of each 15-minute autopilot session to make it usable for botting.

b) Sigh...
SystemAutopilot users which were docking in the system and
% of game time autopilot was used by each of them
Activity (links)IP address
(Yes, I know it can be faked).
EravateDavidBraben666, 99,9%link192.168.0.1
Prolly too quick and dirty. Yet data tables like those would be automatically generated for devs to use. Maybe they would not be able to prove bot use for each case to issue shadowban. But for sure they will be able to repair the damage done fast.
Ask yourself this question. Why have captcha become so advanced and so annoying?
 
Ask yourself this question. Why have captcha become so advanced and so annoying?

Omaigat, Matrix has us.
Maybe not just use same as captcha as in browsers and be a bit creative?
If we will follow your logic and people will go to the lengths of using machine learning algorithms in order to make themselves some space peso in Elite, what hope do we have? For how long not having autopilot in-game at all would barricade them? 3 days of machine learning? We can do at least some small things, like, I don't know... decrease demand for them a bit. By adding legitimate in-game autopilot.
 
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Lestat

Banned
Omaigat, Matrix has us.
Maybe not just use same as captcha as in browsers and be a bit creative?
If we will follow your logic and people will go to the lengths of using machine learning algorithms in order to make themselves some space peso in Elite, what hope do we have? For how long not having autopilot in-game at all would barricade them? 3 days of machine learning? We can do at least some small things, like, I don't know... decrease demand for them a bit. By adding legitimate in-game autopilot.
Let take a look here. You said it can be solved by using captcha. How hard would it to be to make that program be used on Elite Dangerous game. If the screeen says Hit Enter and have a program hit enter. The video show why captcha are so annoying. Because there programs that solve them. :eek:

[video=youtube;5Qb7E-oV2vI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qb7E-oV2vI[/video]
 
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Let take a look here. You said it can be solved by using captcha. How hard would it to be to make that program be used on Elite Dangerous game. If the screeen says Hit Enter and have a program hit enter. The video show why captcha are so annoying.

Firstly, you haven't replied on the 2nd part.

I know which mechanisms are used in order to make such captcha breaker. Do you? If not, please gain some knowledge about topic in question before voicing concerns. Here are some sources on top of google feed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning
http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~polakis/papers/sivakorn_eurosp16.pdf
https://www.blackhat.com/docs/asia-16/materials/asia-16-Sivakorn-Im-Not-a-Human-Breaking-the-Google-reCAPTCHA-wp.pdf

Those algorithms have to be customly developed and trained to the specified task. And again, if people which capable of creating such programs will be interested in developing bots for Elite, not having autopilot in game won't stop them at all. And on the contrary, having less demand for such programs, external autopilots as well as full bots, will.

If devs are as creative as you, as by "not using same captcha as in browsers" you mean "Hit Enter", then it is really hopeless.
 
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If one becomes bored with the excessive repetitions of reproductive activity, they are either doing it horribly, horribly wrong - or they are dead.

#NeverBoredOfBooty

Sex is boring. Or perhaps it's just my age :p

Anyway, I would love to have an autopilot for those long haul situations out to Colonia etc. If it could use neutron star boosting, even better! Let me plug in a manual route (click on a star in the galaxy map, add to route) and I'd be a very happy bunny! Add auto-routing and I think it would be smiles all the way.
 
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Sex is boring. Or perhaps it's just my age :p

Anyway, I would love to have an autopilot for those long haul situations out to Colonia etc. If it could use neutron star boosting, even better! Let me plug in a manual route (click on star in galaxy map, add to route) and I'd be a very happy bunny!

Nice troll. 😃

Autopilot to Colonia is too much. Especially with it using risky stuff such as scooping neutron stars.

I belive that in Colonia's case some transport service should be present. Like carrier ships warping there once each two days or even a week, and warping back next day after arrival. Not having them in game makes zero sence, except that devs want people to explore.
 
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[/INDENT]
Thinking and thinking and thinking... and been married for 17 years and I can only think that if this has gotten boring, you're absolutely doing it wrong.

What nonsense...
You'd never know if he's "doing it wrong", or if its simply not the central focus of his life - as it may be to you.

But well, a lot of people can't even imagine that there could be experiences that beat an organism.
Usually materialists that fell for government brainwashing.
 
a) By terms of decreasing demand increasing cost and decreasing supply for external bots.
And please do me a favor and explain how would you overcome captcha at the start of each 15-minute autopilot session to make it usable for botting.

I’m getting the feeling that you don’t understand what we actually mean by botting: botting is obtaining in game rewards without having to actually play the game yourself, because something is playing the game for you. Botting has nothing to do with the method, and everything to do with the results. Using the autopilot to plot an economical route 10k LY, and wedging a penny into the keyboard, is just as much a bot as a specialized program that can analyze the video feed from ED and steer the ship around stars.

As for captcha, there already exist 3rd party programs that can defeat them. That’s why it takes actual humans multiple attempts these days. All you’re doing is making the autopilot inconvenient for the honest players... who probably spend most of their game actually flying space ships in a space ship flying game.

b) Sigh...
SystemAutopilot users which were docking in the system and
% of game time autopilot was used by each of them
Activity (links)IP address
(Yes, I know it can be faked).
EravateDavidBraben123, 99,9%
DavidBraben666, 99,9%
DavidBraben999, 99,9%
link
link
link
192.168.0.1
192.168.0.1
192.168.0.1
Prolly too quick and dirty. Yet data tables like those would be automatically generated for GMs to use. Maybe they would not be able to prove bot use for each case to issue shadowban. But for sure they will be able to repair the damage done fast.

Congratulations, you just caught a college dorm with three new players, following one of those inevitable “How to get rich quick using the Autopilot” guides.

Meanwhile, the actual cheater has their three accounts doing three different things, because they’re not an idiot.

Also, would you be willing to pay a subscription to pay GMs to monitor this game 24/7? Because in case you haven’t noticed, there are none! If you have a problem in the game, you have to put in a customer service request which can take several days, as opposed to summoning a GM who can fix the problem in minutes.
 
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