Avoiding Group Control...

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I've never had any run-ins with goons or know what they're capable of doing. Assuming they are able to exploit game mechanics to the extent some of you claim, are you guys still in favor of Frontier selling credits so people can buy ships and such? Fleets of goons in Anacondas on the first day.

Ooh, if they want to fund the game with tens of thousands, I say let them come.

But it's not their style. In EVE they famously got started by having hundreds or thousands log in, get their free starter ship and gang up on something big and expensive. If we have a goon-invasion, it will be with rowing gangs of starter sideys (flown very badly) :D
 
I was in Goonswarm and they add cool gameplay, but when i was not with them i never had a problem with them.

In that case, you might be able to answer an honest question (that hopefully isn't too far off-topic): have they ever considered writing their own game? If so what happened, and if not why not?

They must be able to find half a dozen goons that can code, and with all their collective gaming experience they must know some part of the market they could corner. Say they wrote a 100% realistic space game with robot ships destroying each other at light speed and asteroids getting hurled at any planet known to be inhabited - a number of people round here would jump at such a game, and couldn't complain it was too brutal because it was explicitly designed that way. Even if it wasn't commercially successful, the competitive pressure would give them leverage in games like EVE (like how Chrome pressures other browsers to add features). So what (if anything) am I missing?
 
Ooh, if they want to fund the game with tens of thousands, I say let them come.

But it's not their style. In EVE they famously got started by having hundreds or thousands log in, get their free starter ship and gang up on something big and expensive. If we have a goon-invasion, it will be with rowing gangs of starter sideys (flown very badly) :D

Organisation. There will be an arm behaving correctly, earning money and funding the rest. It's part of why they're very good at what they do. They use mobs, but they use them well and fund them well too.

As for fear of them... sure... It isn't fear of what they'll do to me personally, it's fear of what they'll do to the game, the culture, taking over the forums, ruining story and just bullying their way into becoming the dominant faction as a player group.

CCP eventually caved, and it's isn't easy NOT to. Numbers, money, group attacks. The thing is EVE wasn't always EVE. And Goons went a long way to making it what it is now famous for.
 
CCP eventually caved, and it's isn't easy NOT to. Numbers, money, group attacks. The thing is EVE wasn't always EVE. And Goons went a long way to making it what it is now famous for.

The Goonswarm were not the first group to attempt terrorist control of EVE. Before that there was m0o. There were others too. That was a very small number of actual people, but it did the job - it made people frightened enough to stay in and hide under their beds.

There are no mechanisms that allow territorial control in E: D. None. Nada. Zip. So the only control they can ever achieve is what you allow them to have - by letting yourself be afraid of them.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I was in Goonswarm and they add cool gameplay, but when i was not with them i never had a problem with them. Like 99% of the population the people who complained about them are the people who never even met them and just thought they were "the bad guys" - aka the same people who thought every German soldier was a SS officer. LOL!

The group system imo is most destructive idea, from a gameplay perspective.

400 billion stars, police, bounties, navies and a ton of other safeguards against pvp (32 player instances as well), and people want to the ability to toggle off pvp, do whatever in 'anarchy" systems etc.... Too hard to explain but i know a lot of people alrdy on this forum explained it 20 times over.

Groups are certainly destructive to anyone who feels some need to have all players locked in the same area.... For others, they provide a number of distinct benefits.

Solo-online toggles PvP off, by definition - there is only one player in that group.

I would expect that when some players choose to move to private groups from the All Group, some other players will cry "Victory!". I don't think that they really get the point. The expectation is that private groups will be persistent and can accommodate a large number of members. In a sense, private groups may end up equating to servers (in the parlance of more traditional MMOs) by having a membership and rule set.

Private groups, however, need not discourage PvP - they may simply restrict membership to players who can be trusted to play the game and not the metagame.

People who have "explained it 20 times over" have expressed an opinion. Everyone is entitled to one, of course.
 
There are no mechanisms that allow territorial control in E: D. None. Nada. Zip. So the only control they can ever achieve is what you allow them to have - by letting yourself be afraid of them.

No territorial control doesn't mean they're not coming and doesn't mean they can't dominate gameplay. Or the forums. Or the community. They don't just play the game, they play the metagame. And it's the metagame they're very good at.

I do love this 'don't be scared of 'em' argument...
 
In order to win battles I need a lot of players with powerful ships guaranteed to win. My requirement would be to have a full 32 person instance supplied with Anacondas armed to the teeth with the best weaponry man can buy before I can engage in any of the battles.

I know I was saying earlier that goons wouldn't need to stuff an instance with 32 ships, but you bring up a good point.

If there was ever a need for someone to defeat a powerful NPC group, say the naval response to extreme criminality or the Endless War scenario that you mention, the ability to pack an instance with 31 of your mates could be unbalancing.

Of course, FD can design this response so that it's overwhelming (invincible ships, repeated respawns, etc.). That'd be a shame for "normal" players, as the ability to destroy the Star Destroyers in the X-Wing franchise was one of it's most endearing features.
 
No territorial control doesn't mean they're not coming

Let them come. All are welcome.

and doesn't mean they can't dominate gameplay.

Yet to see a good & realistic argument for how they can do that to be honest.

Or the forums. Or the community.

Yes, well, the forums are already nuts and several of them are very unpleasant to hang out in. The beta forum for one...

Thank goodness for the DDF. And threads like this one. :)

They don't just play the game, they play the metagame. And it's the metagame they're very good at.

And? Maybe I'm being thick, but I actually don't see where that is relevant.

I do love this 'don't be scared of 'em' argument...

They'll likely attempt guerilla warfare, because it's all the game will actually allow them to do. Because the game is so huge & with multiple ways of playing multiplayer, the only way that will have any effect is if people allow themselves to be distracted by them. This is of course assuming you believe their "influence" to be negative, as I'm assuming you do.
 
Organisation. There will be an arm behaving correctly, earning money and funding the rest. It's part of why they're very good at what they do. They use mobs, but they use them well and fund them well too.

As for fear of them... sure... It isn't fear of what they'll do to me personally, it's fear of what they'll do to the game, the culture, taking over the forums, ruining story and just bullying their way into becoming the dominant faction as a player group.

CCP eventually caved, and it's isn't easy NOT to. Numbers, money, group attacks. The thing is EVE wasn't always EVE. And Goons went a long way to making it what it is now famous for.
I don't disagree with you. I really despise the lowest common denominator nature of the goons. They are essentially a gang, and their metagame antics at EVE and other places are loathsome.

I dearly hope that Frontier can see them for the toxic bunch that they are, and take steps to keep their influence and disruption to a minimum.
 
Only stumbled on this thread now from a DDF link. Way too busy at work to keep up with all these fast moving threads. :(

I havent read the whole thread but based on a similar discussion over on the DDF, I'd been formulating a scenario that would cause some widespread disruption to the playing field (though not particularly outside the parameters of the game, but the tactics involved would certainly involve a certain level of griefing).

Creating the backdrop
In order to facilitate this, because we don't really know what Frontier are planning for dynamic content within the game, I've had to imagine a likely but currently fictitious scenario we could find in the end game. Take the Endless War scenario that most of the Alpha players should be familiar with. Its the idea of 2 factions constantly at war with each other. Frontier could likely scale this up where real systems are at stake between a constant conflict between the Federation and Empire. That means commanders could make a difference in winning (or losing territory), having the war jump between star systems as battles are won or lost.

Setting the Scene
Now, consider that I am GoonDangerous Director (The Elite Dangerous Branch Manager for Goonswarm). My idea, just for the hell of it, is to see if I can disrupt the Empires stabilty and push the war all the way to the Emperor's seat in Achernar. How will the game mechanics handle this scenario and what will the casual players do? Now normally this would be nigh on impossible because you'd never have the manpower and the tech to be consistent about this. But with good oraganization and planning, it may be possible. Something that the Goons just happen to be good at.
Call this Operation A. In order to do this I need to win all battles between the border and Archernar. [Peripheral impact - moving the war to there alters the state of one of the most populous systems in the game from Corporate State (or whatever safe state) to a state of war. This brings issues (and benefits) where it becomes dangerous for people to trade here, supply and demand is altered, carebears leave and go and cry elsewhere, etc ]. In order to win battles I need a lot of players with powerful ships guaranteed to win. My requirement would be to have a full 32 person instance supplied with Anacondas armed to the teeth with the best weaponry man can buy before I can engage in any of the battles.
Fine, we've got the players (we're the Goons, of course we've got the players). But we need the ships and the weaponry. We DON'T have to worry about training up skilled pilots. They're adequate from the moment their account is created, we just give them the Anacondas the moment their account is born.
But the ships and weapons don't come from nowhere. So we need a funding plan.

Funding Plan
So enter Operation B. Heres where things get interesting. The above scenario is a guess, but the next step is based on whats in the game now. The quickest way to get cash is to pirate. The method? One of the simplest ways to pirate is to have gangs of 15 to 20 GoonKids in starter Sidewinders and Cobras hanging together. And then its a matter of blockading a station just outside its safe zone. Any station. Every station. The busier, the better. So that every ship that leaves the station (or approaches it) gets ganked. And I mean EVERY ship, player and NPC. (Note that if you are not running IDENT OFF, if thats even an option, you can guarantee you will be popped). What single player, even a well armed player, can withstand 20 beginner cobras barbecueing your asp off? And I doubt that hiring 2 henchwingmen would be of assistance either. Once the flying tincan has popped, GoonHauler Jake, on standby just out of sensor range will fly in with his Lakon 9 Salvager, collect all salvagable items, rince and repeat until the cargo hold is full and then head into the station to sell them, adding to the Goon credit account (this role is probably assigned to one player). Any GoonKids loosing their ship can come out fighting straightaway in a shiny new starter Cobra. Lost nothing. And who cares about bounties on a throwaway commander you don't care about? (Note this also works well in Ironman mode, but for more consistent results, better to play in Casual mode).
Repeat this as a CTA with hundreds of GoonKid teams affecting as many stations as you can in the core systems, while in the real world you are rolling this action around the world for 24 hours. Done right, this will bring in millions in a very short time. And kept going daily, this is a really good way of having a constant funding for something like the war effort of Operation A.

In Conclusion
Obviously some details need to be worked out, like ensuring ways of transferring money to the right accounts, or buying ships for other players of your team, etc. Most players would run with two characters. One cheap ganking character and the other would be running a setup for the Endless War scenario. (Its worth repeating here that that scenario is a guess, but it could be replaced by any scenario worth exploiting in the final game, where Operation B would just be the manner in which you can fund the greater team.)
Yes, there are probably holes in the ideas above, but those are minor details to be worked out later. Hopefully you see where I am going on this thought process and how this could be a way to 'dominate' the game. They wont be out trying to dominate players, its more about bending the game rules to their whims, and too bad if it affects other players at the same time.

Must admit its quite interesting to consider. One of the issues I have observed here is there is a bit of a single-player mindset amongst many backers. DB has said that our actions will affect what happens in game but its more likely to occur or be successful in a grand scheming sort of way if people organise themselves and play together, key word here is multiplayer.

So even if peoples worst fears are realised there is a likely a solution but it would require a paradigm shift in the way many are thinking about playing the game. I've long suggested we could do with an extra section on the forums where people can advertise for groups, associations etc, but if people don't get together and another well organised bunch of players do come along then all power to them.;)
 
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Must admit its quite interesting to consider. One of the issues I have observed here is there is a bit of a single-player mindset amongst many backers. DB has said that our actions will affect what happens in game but its more likely to occur or be successful in a grand scheming sort of way if people organise themselves and play together, key word here is multiplayer.

So even if peoples worst fears are realised there is a likely a solution but it would require a paradigm shift in the way many are thinking about playing the game. I've long suggested we could do with an extra section on the forums where people can advertise for groups, associations etc, but if people don't get together and another well organised bunch of players do come along then all power to them.;)

Yeah say the game has 100,000 players online mode. In general they'll be acting like the equivalent of brownian motion, randomly moving around with different agendas, ripples form, little winds here and there, basically random actions.

Say even just 1000 goons join. Only 1 percent, but that 1 percent acting in concert and pushing an agenda can have a bigger effect than the 99 percent behaving randomly.
 
Even if every person on the planet was a Goon, that would be just over 7 billion guildie sheep.

400 billion systems means that each member of the human race has to simultaneously patrol and "dominate" about 57 systems.

I can see that working out nicely for them :)

***...

Sorry to single you out but reading this thread is ing me off royally.

While there are 400 billion stars a ****ing huge percentage off them are too far away which since everyone loves quoting Douglas Adams I would of thought you'd understand.

Michael Brookes commented at the previous LaveCon that there is about 60000 inhabited planets.

To dominate all you need to do is swarm solo players. You will eventually make money which goes into a central pot. This buys ships for everyone. Eventually every member will be in a maxed out Cobra/Anaconda.

Interdiction buy in game mechanics will force them to move on but not disband.

I want to play Ironman. What I don't want to do is invest 100's of hours to get swarmed when I enter a system.

Goons, et al, don't care about a throwaway Sidewinder but people will about 1000 hours of careful gameplay. Not many people will put that emotional investment in, lose it and then continue playing.

The only way to combat a single group dominating is put a clause in the T&C about 'detriment to the game' and start perma banning the accounts.
 
Yeah say the game has 100,000 players online mode. In general they'll be acting like the equivalent of brownian motion, randomly moving around with different agendas, ripples form, little winds here and there, basically random actions.

Say even just 1000 goons join. Only 1 percent, but that 1 percent acting in concert and pushing an agenda can have a bigger effect than the 99 percent behaving randomly.

I see what you're saying - all the more interesting when we consider that there is talk of owning stations or capital ships under executive control. The solution to this is to organise ourselves. Rather than be afraid I quite like the idea of the potential for some interesting times - it would surely be pleasurable to overcome the goons. Thing is without the game supporting clans or guilds its likely going to be difficult to recognise who these players are and even more difficult for players to organise themselves and respond.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Nothing wrong with being afraid. It's what you do with it that counts.

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
 
“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Damned Bene Gesserit witch.
 
The solution to this is to organise ourselves. Rather than be afraid I quite like the idea of the potential for some interesting times - it would surely be pleasurable to overcome the goons.

No thanks.

I want the big threats to my safety to be those that Frontier designed and placed in the Universe. I don't want the game to be 'everyone versus one other power bloc in PvP factional warfare'.

It turns the game into something very different from what I would expect it to be - in the same way the DayZ standalone alpha bills itself as a Zombie survival game, yet is basically played as a match-shooter. (disclaimer - yes, I know it's a long way from finished, and hopefully it'll change....I've wanted a FPS survival sim as much as I've wanted Elite back :) )
 
Well, as a Goon yourself what would you do?

That's sorta what this thread is about... There's a lot of hypothetical, which is fun, we can /try/ and guess from what we understand as to what techniques ANY large group would use to dominate gameplay and what we and FD can do to make sure that doesn't happen. And trying to keep the focus on one person, one ship or small groups rather than large player-run organisations/corporations.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I see what you're saying - all the more interesting when we consider that there is talk of owning stations or capital ships under executive control. The solution to this is to organise ourselves. Rather than be afraid I quite like the idea of the potential for some interesting times - it would surely be pleasurable to overcome the goons. Thing is without the game supporting clans or guilds its likely going to be difficult to recognise who these players are and even more difficult for players to organise themselves and respond.

I don't think that owning stations is on the agenda - unless you have a quote handy? Capital ships under the control of a player organisation dedicated to ruining the game for others sounds like a barrel of laughs.... :rolleyes:

So, your solution is to organise other player structures to take them on? This sounds like an "if you can't beat them, join them" approach. I don't imagine the game would be much fun for players outwith these player organisations....

.... and the punchline is that we should encourage clan / guild support to allow *us* to organise ourselves? All this would do is to make the destructive groups more effective....
 
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