Avoiding Group Control...

[Juniper]

I thought the whole point of the trading in ED was that it was player driven.

Supply and demand fluctuates depending on trading trends. And that can be controlled by an organised group of players.

Agreed, this isnt as bad as pvp griefing by a long stretch, but if they could control the markets with their massive playerbase then they would exercise some influence on everyones gameplay.

Not as such no - a group of players can, over time, influence a local market. Goonswarm could certainly do that, it's true.

But equally, so can everyone else. And "thousands of players" is a tiny number in Elite terms. A million players might be more credible, especially as their influence here would be highly localised, & to have any effect on the game as a whole they'd have to move around a great deal. In the meantime, markets will recover.

It would be like handling 60,000 spinning plates.

And a quick background simulation "event" injection from the devs could rebalance things in an instant. Bet your bottom dollar the devs will be keeping a close watch on stuff like that.

 

[Bromley86]

Goonswarm may be "thousands of players" but that is a tiny number in Elite terms. There are supposedly 60,000+ inhabited systems, and many billion more on top of that. Each system is huge in and of itself, and there are no choke points.

Even if they were a million strong, you would be unlucky to meet more than a couple of them if you weren't going out of your way to find them. As blocks work on an account basis, it would not take much to filter them out of your game - even in the "All Player" group which you are not forced to play in.

The Core is, by definition, a choke point. Lots of players will want to visit, lots of players will stay in this area for much of their time. Likewise, every system has focal points (e.g. the stations & possibly the sun).

There is nothing to stop them all heading to Sol on Monday, Achenar on Tuesday and Gateway on Wednesday. Sure, we can move out of the Core, but then they've achieved their aim and limited other players' use of a key area. Yes, those players can enter a group or online singleplayer, but that's not what they'd choose. As always, not saying it will happen, just that it might.

Another article like JeffRyan's that had me laughing - WoW blood plague. It also features a warning for DB, should he ever take a Cobra for a spin.

 

[CaptainSodom]

I thought the whole point of the trading in ED was that it was player driven.

Supply and demand fluctuates depending on trading trends. And that can be controlled by an organised group of players.

Agreed, this isnt as bad as pvp griefing by a long stretch, but if they could control the markets with their massive playerbase then they would exercise some influence on everyones gameplay.

Not only that, Mr Braben has gone on record several times, hinting at the ability of players affecting or "voting" for in-game events. Example being a war between Empire and Federation, and players running guns for Empire turning the odds in Empire's favor.

 

[Juniper]

The Core is, by definition, a choke point. Lots of players will want to visit, lots of players will stay in this area for much of their time. Likewise, every system has focal points (e.g. the stations & possibly the sun).

There is nothing to stop them all heading to Sol on Monday, Achenar on Tuesday and Gateway on Wednesday. Sure, we can move out of the Core, but then they've achieved their aim and limited other players' use of a key area. Yes, those players can enter a group or online singleplayer, but that's not what they'd choose. As always, not saying it will happen, just that it might.

Sol is huge. Achenar is huge. Gateway is huge. They are also policed heavily. They will not survive long there if they start firing on players, and because of the size of the systems, they are easy to avoid in any case, with or without private or solo groups.

Personally, I think the main 'in' for a group like Goonswarm would be the markets, but it's such a diverse & vast galaxy, and their numbers are so small in comparison, that they would have a hard job crashing anything other than the odd fringe world that was teetering on the edge anyway. I doubt they could crash a core world... and if they did, it wouldn't stay that way for long. NPCs run the market, the distribution, manufacturing, everything. They hold all the cards here.

 

[CaptainSodom]

Sol is huge. Achenar is huge. Gateway is huge. They are also policed heavily. They will not survive long there if they start firing on players, and because of the size of the systems, they are easy to avoid in any case, with or without private or solo groups.

Personally, I think the main 'in' for a group like Goonswarm would be the markets, but it's such a diverse & vast galaxy, and their numbers are so small in comparison, that they would have a hard job crashing anything other than the odd fringe world that was teetering on the edge anyway. I doubt they could crash a core world... and if they did, it wouldn't stay that way for long. NPCs run the market, the distribution, manufacturing, everything. They hold all the cards here.

If E: D economy is built anything like the real world, insignificant players such as Greece or Lehman Brothers can wreak havoc to entire economies.

Butterfly fluttering its wings.

 

[Juniper]

Not only that, Mr Braben has gone on record several times, hinting at the ability of players affecting or "voting" for in-game events. Example being a war between Empire and Federation, and players running guns for Empire turning the odds in Empire's favor.

Indeed, good point. This is also hinted at in the so-called "God powers" that are coming with the DDF, where choices are presented and the DDF votes one way or another.

This is indeed something that an organised group of players could block vote a particular way. It would still have to be a majority though.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

If E: D economy is built anything like the real world, insignificant players such as Greece or Lehman Brothers can wreak havoc to entire economies.

Butterfly fluttering its wings.

Because current system is built on debt, and it collapsed on debt.

You can "collapse" pure trading only with reaching equilibrium. And even then markets quickly corrects this.

 

[X2Eliah]

But then, all you need to do is skip a few hundred systems spinwards/corewards, and it's all fine again...

 

[CaptainSodom]

Indeed, good point. This is also hinted at in the so-called "God powers" that are coming with the DDF, where choices are presented and the DDF votes one way or another.

This is indeed something that an organised group of players could block vote a particular way. It would still have to be a majority though.

Clarification: It would still have to be a majority of voting players. Important distinction being that if the voter base is 1000 Goons and 100 players who happen to be around in that corner of galaxy to vote on it with their gun running on the other side, Goons will win every time.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Clarification: It would still have to be a majority of voting players. Important distinction being that if the voter base is 1000 Goons and 100 players who happen to be around in that corner of galaxy to vote on it with their gun running on the other side, Goons will win every time.

.... on the assumption that 1000 of them have a vote.

 

[CaptainSodom]

.... on the assumption that 1000 of them have a vote.

The scenario being that anyone can "vote" by running guns for the Empire.

Purely speculative example, but is something for the devs to think about when they build ways for players to impact in-game events. Not limited to giving too much power to Goons or any particular player group, btw, it also applies to DDF

 

[PacalB]

I remember reading about that last year - his official defence line was that he was drunk wasn't it?

Watch the video, that's not a drunk person speaking. That a ... (Fill in whatever you want).

 

[Pyros]

The scenario being that anyone can "vote" by running guns for the Empire.

Purely speculative example, but is something for the devs to think about when they build ways for players to impact in-game events. Not limited to giving too much power to Goons or any particular player group, btw, it also applies to DDF

If a great number of players decides to do a certain run and impact on the economy/markets I see no problem with this. No matter if they are Goons, Spoons or Loons. Working as intended. And it will be a localized impact anyway.

The DDF is quite different because their specific "power" (minute as it is) is not derived from ingame activities, where they are players like any other.

 

[Juniper]

The DDF is quite different because their specific "power" (minute as it is) is not derived from ingame activities, where they are players like any other.

Quite. And as you well know, the vast majority of the DDF are highly opposed to any kind of special treatment or power in-game. Because we are players like any other, and do not want the game ruined for us.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

If a great number of players decides to do a certain run and impact on the economy/markets I see no problem with this.

It only becomes a problem if a single group uses overwhelming numbers to create a ludicrous situation. For example, beefing up an obscure faction until the entire universe is run by The Church of KumByar.

So long as Frontier have some reasonable balancing mechanic (e.g. factions require exponentially more work to maintain systems further from their home world), I agree it's not a big deal.

 

[grae3107]

I don't see how they can dominate.

Isolate an area and mess with the trade then the markets will react and profitable trade will move elsewhere and so will genuine traders.

Dominate through attacking everyone that comes through there instance will just get them moved to the group for everyone that behaves in the same way.

I think it will be impossible for a group to dominate the ALL GROUP and impact on the wider galaxy. Also, as others have pointed out Frontier can inject events that can quickly remedy a problem in areas.

It will be easier to dominate areas in EVE because of building stations etc where as that is not an option in ED.

 

[JeffRyan]

The problem I have with Juniper's argument is he seems to think that we have all the bases covered and that there's no way GS can impact ED.

That might be correct, it might not. And I seriously don't mind 'well if we did A' and Juniper replies 'Well B would counter that...' that's great and sorta what I'm looking for. It's the denial that there's anyway that GS could cause havoc. Because that's the goal, 'take it or break it'.

 

[Cosmos]

Gotta say I do think this thread is full of paranoia. One of the selling points of the game is that its multiplayer and people acting together can affect the political and economic outcomes of the game.

So many players here have a single-player mindset and seem to be outraged that others might actually play it like a multiplayer game. Does anyone honestly think that there one little ship, playing like a lone wolf, can have some huge effect on the outcomes of significant events?

 

[Pyros]

It only becomes a problem if a single group uses overwhelming numbers to create a ludicrous situation. For example, beefing up an obscure faction until the entire universe is run by The Church of KumByar.

So long as Frontier have some reasonable balancing mechanic (e.g. factions require exponentially more work to maintain systems further from their home world), I agree it's not a big deal.

Of course balancing mechanisms are needed, even for the NPC simulation. The players, while can have localized impact and if in sufficient numbers could even create trends, are but a few compared to the NPC entities. So while they could tip the balance, players cannot promote a faction to what it is not.

AFAIK that is the intended design. As always, there can be issues with the practical implementation, but for that exists FD oversight.

 

[JeffRyan]

Gotta say I do think this thread is full of paranoia. One of the selling points of the game is that its multiplayer and people acting together can affect the political and economic outcomes of the game.

So many players here have a single-player mindset and seem to be outraged that others might actually play it like a multiplayer game. Does anyone honestly think that there one little ship, playing like a lone wolf, can have some huge effect on the outcomes of significant events?

That's not the problem, it isn't one person with a group like GS, it's literally thousands. And that's what the thread is about, how could thousands of players focused solely on causing havoc do so?

I think if we were a random MMO you'd be right about the paranoia, but this isn't a random MMO, it's Elite Dangerous. And it's what a lot of people in EVE have been dreaming about too for 11 years. So the cross-over, at least initially, will be HUGE.