AX Large Turreted Multicannons, non AX version?

[hs0003]

I don't know about everyone else, but I absolutely love how the AX large turreted multicannons look.

So I was thinking, why not give us a non AX version and let us add it to the regular arsenal? Even if it's given the regular turret penalties in comparison to the existing fixed large multicannons, I'd still love to have them.

What does the rest of you think?

 

[TheSisko]

Agreed.

Large missile racks, large turreted MCs. You'd think the normal versions of these weapons would be out before the experimental versions.

 

[Chris Simon]

Yes, they look great. They would definitely deserve a normal version.
But I guess that's kind of the point of them being "special".

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

not the multicannons, but dumbfires large + turret.

would be a little variety to turrted cannons...

 

[Faybs]

Agreed.

Large missile racks, large turreted MCs. You'd think the normal versions of these weapons would be out before the experimental versions.

My guess is that FDev believe they're OP when used against other players. There must be a reason why these weapons specifically only harm alien ships.

 

[galahad2069]

There must be a reason why these weapons specifically only harm alien ships.

There obviously is one. A poor design decision, nothing else.

 

[Chris Simon]

There obviously is one. A poor design decision, nothing else.

I would not say poor, but it's one of those things you can't avoid when you mix PvP and PvE. When you give players really strong PvE weapons, you have to limit their use for PvP.
Personally, if we're talking poor design decisions, I think that making this game online multiplayer was one. But it's necessary, these days and so are the decisions that follow.

 

[Abomination]

There obviously is one. A poor design decision, nothing else.

Looks like it.

When goids get released to the public (aka roaming the bubble), they'll be non-content unless you equip your ship with AX stuff.
But if you do that, you'll probably have no chance at all at pvp (in whatever form).

I'm very worried about this.

 

[Chris Simon]

Looks like it.

When goids get released to the public (aka roaming the bubble), they'll be non-content unless you equip your ship with AX stuff.
But if you do that, you'll probably have no chance at all at pvp (in whatever form).

I'm very worried about this.

This is already happening. You either fly a PvP ship, or a ship that is actually useful for playing the game.
It won't be any different with goids.

 

[Arithon]

I'd like to see AX weapons do THE EXACT SAME DAMAGE to non-Thargoids as "normal" weapons. There's no logical in-game reason why they shouldn't. There's certainly no reason in or out of game to make them weaker.

They should be implemented like all-weather tyres, not snow-chains. i.e. suitable for normal use, but better in special circumstances not ONLY usable in special circumstances.

Currently by nerfing them down to make them "not overpowered", it means you have to have a ship with AX weapons then another ship without. Great if you've got billions to spare, but for players that don't, this is yet another barrier to 2.4 content for them.

I'd say the variation of turreted and fixed and gimbal mount weapons needs review.

Certain weapons (multi-cannon) could do with Class 3 turret mounts and we should really have Class 1 rail and plasma turrets, as well as turret mounts for regular dumb-fire missile racks in Class 1 & 2.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

I'd like to see AX weapons do THE EXACT SAME DAMAGE to non-Thargoids as "normal" weapons. There's no logical in-game reason why they shouldn't.

Actually there could be a logical reason... Let's assume that the standard Multicannon round is comparable to a standard military armor-piercing bullet - a copper-jacketed, steel-cored, lead projectile. These work quite nicely for damaging human-made equipment. What if the AX Multicannon round were different - instead it's a tin-jacketed, tungsten-cored, zinc projectile. The combination of the tin and zinc are toxic to thargoid bio-tech, but less than effective against human tech. Sure, the penetrator core still does some damage, but the jacket and filler shatter against our hulls, rather than cleaving their way though.

Conversely our "normal" rounds might pass through thargoid bio-tech, but the self-healing capacity allows these wounds to simply close thus doing no meaningful damage, whereas their AX counterparts tend to shatter inside the wound, and do not heal quite as easily, due to the reaction of the metals and the bio-tech.

Pure speculation, but one based on logic.

 

[Arithon]

Actually there could be a logical reason... Let's assume that the standard Multicannon round is comparable to a standard military armor-piercing bullet - a copper-jacketed, steel-cored, lead projectile. These work quite nicely for damaging human-made equipment. What if the AX Multicannon round were different - instead it's a tin-jacketed, tungsten-cored, zinc projectile. The combination of the tin and zinc are toxic to thargoid bio-tech, but less than effective against human tech. Sure, the penetrator core still does some damage, but the jacket and filler shatter against our hulls, rather than cleaving their way though.

Conversely our "normal" rounds might pass through thargoid bio-tech, but the self-healing capacity allows these wounds to simply close thus doing no meaningful damage, whereas their AX counterparts tend to shatter inside the wound, and do not heal quite as easily, due to the reaction of the metals and the bio-tech.

Pure speculation, but one based on logic.

It's a good theory. But like the "four AX weapons" limit, it feels like an arbitrary decision to me. I don't think anyone would swallow that "the Thargoids adapted" by limiting our hard-point usage.

 

[Quester91]

Why don't the AX weapons have the same exact stats as the standard version, plus the ability to harm the thargoids?

 

[Ian Skippy]

My guess is that FDev believe they're OP when used against other players. There must be a reason why these weapons specifically only harm alien ships.

Then reduce the damage stat.

It looks cool, and I want to have a huge dakka dakka gunboat. Its a sci-fi staple, let me have it!

Why don't the AX weapons have the same exact stats as the standard version, plus the ability to harm the thargoids?

I am not entirely sure. It kinda makes some sense if Thargoids invade the bubble, and you have to make an interesting choice. Now its a bit odd.

It's a good theory. But like the "four AX weapons" limit, it feels like an arbitrary decision to me. I don't think anyone would swallow that "the Thargoids adapted" by limiting our hard-point usage.

I think its a moot point either way. Game design should be based on what is fun (which is of course subjective), not on what is realistic or can be explained. We should talk about the consequences of thargoid-only vs 'dual use' weapons. Whatever is best should be picked, and we'll lore-it-up as we go.

 

[Quester91]

I am not entirely sure. It kinda makes some sense if Thargoids invade the bubble, and you have to make an interesting choice. Now its a bit odd.

Ah, so forcing the player to have several different loadouts and waste effectively hours traveling back and forth in order to swap them and enjoy new content is an "interesting choice", gotcha.

Sure I could also wait half an hour and have them delivered, that would make an "interesting choice" too probably.

It's like if I want to play against the legion in WoW I'm forced to go to Orgrimmar in order to swap gear, then have fun for a few hours, go back to raiding with my guild and since those will be different enemies, I'm forced to go back to the city again to equip my default endgame gear. It doesn't make any sense.

There will always be weapons more effective against some threats, but that doesn't mean one nulls the other, it simply means that if you choose to have an edge in some situations, you'll be probably lacking in other situations.

Don't peddle a non-sense design choice just to add new timesinks as more freedom for the player, please.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

there have been outcries pre 2.4 that
1. thargoid weapons should not require engineering -> so FDEV released them without blueprints.
-> logical step, because any usefull modification would have been destignated as "must have" from the playerbase

2. engineered, existing weapons should not be working vs. thargoids
3. powerfull anti-thargoid weapons should not be working vs. player or outclass any engineered item that someone has put hours work in grinding mats

-> result: what we have been given.

 

[Siranui]

There obviously is one. A poor design decision, nothing else.

I completely disagree.

Making AX weapons was very clever. It allowed FD to bring in thargoids in under laboratory conditions so they can tweak combat balance without the madness of Engineers adding in hundreds of additional variables.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

The Four AX Weapon Limit... I can't scrape up any logical rationale behind this one. Perhaps because they're classified as Experimental the Pilot's Federation Insurance Company made some fuss about having more than 4 to a ship. It's a big stretch, but the only thing I can come up with that makes even a modicrum of sense.

No AX Engineering - Ok.. they are already Experimental, so it stands to reason no one would really know that much about them, except those who made them.

No so good against humans - already covered that. Birdshot in an elephant gun would be great for birds, suck against elephants. Don't shoot elephants though. They're creepy, but that's no reason to shoot them.

There is an easier solution to the whole Outfitting issue - same solution I use: Build Another Ship

I have a gunship, it's fun to fly around and take out NPC's with. It sports 5 PA's and a pair of beams. It stays up here in the bubble.
I wanted to shoot some thargoids, so I build a second gunship, outfitted it with AX gear, and it's parked at a lovely little installation in the Pleadies. Since I have to go out there to shoot thargoids anyways, might as well keep a ship there for that purpose. If they start turning up in the bubble and causing problems - Ship Transfer, or I'll build a 3rd ship for up here.

 

[Frenotx]

I would also like a non-AX MC Taipan.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

The Four AX Weapon Limit... I can't scrape up any logical rationale behind this one. Perhaps because they're classified as Experimental the Pilot's Federation Insurance Company made some fuss about having more than 4 to a ship. It's a big stretch, but the only thing I can come up with that makes even a modicrum of sense.

No AX Engineering - Ok.. they are already Experimental, so it stands to reason no one would really know that much about them, except those who made them.
i am torn about this. mostly because those engineers who are supposed to have worked on the modules, do not sell them at their starports...

No so good against humans - already covered that. Birdshot in an elephant gun would be great for birds, suck against elephants. Don't shoot elephants though. They're creepy, but that's no reason to shoot them.

There is an easier solution to the whole Outfitting issue - same solution I use: Build Another Ship
This was already FDEVs stance before they gave us module storage. wouldn't be so bad if the costs of a secondary ship wouldn't be so high for someone who
dislikes using exploidts and has a very low grind tolerance

I have a gunship, it's fun to fly around and take out NPC's with. It sports 5 PA's and a pair of beams. It stays up here in the bubble.
I wanted to shoot some thargoids, so I build a second gunship, outfitted it with AX gear, and it's parked at a lovely little installation in the Pleadies. Since I have to go out there to shoot thargoids anyways, might as well keep a ship there for that purpose. If they start turning up in the bubble and causing problems - Ship Transfer, or I'll build a 3rd ship for up here.

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