News Background Simulation - Update (01/03)

Thanks for the update - great to see a bit more clarity when you change the BGS, now we know what to look out for.

Bit disappointed you removed some of the hidden mechanics before you told us they existed (specifically bonus war days). I know some had guessed they existed, it would have been great if you could have confirmed the mechanic so we could have had a more well-informed discussion. (many people go around saying things are broken in this game when they just don't understand the mechanics - and it's difficult to correct people when the mechanism has been kept secret).
 
I would also like to have the mission generator fixed.
I'm getting missions in one system that harm the war progress of the same faction in another system...
 
Thanks for the information and the fixes.
Looking forward to all this info being available ingame !

Could we have the News Board tell us how long a conflict is planed for and has been running ?
And could we have similar information in the Squadron window for the faction ?
 
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I have a hard time to wrap my head around this. To me it reads like "to start a conflict you already need to have a conflict" or how else could assets be at risk by any (not yet?) existing conflicts? Which obviously would be nonsense. What am I not getting here, anyone cares to give me a hand?
When two factions are in a conflict, if they own anything in the system (stations, planetary bases, planetary settlements or - as of 3.3 - installations: collectively, assets), then they stake this on winning the conflict.

This change means that if neither faction has anything to stake, the conflict won't start.

So, sample system:
Faction A owns three stations and a planetary base
Faction B owns a station
Faction C owns an installation
Factions D, E and F own nothing.

This change means that conflicts between D, E and F are now impossible - while until today they were probably the most common sort of conflict! Faction D can still attack faction B and attempt to take its station, however, despite not having anything itself, because faction B does have assets.

The slight exception mentioned in the original post is for "invasion" - this a special type of conflict caused by an expansion to a "full" system, and in this case both factions are putting their continued presence in the system at stake, so don't need an asset to fight over.
 
This is another buff to mission running player groups and another massive nurf to combat orientated player groups.

Leaving a blanket ±4% that does not take into account the system size is not good. Every other BGS action takes into account the size of the system.
1 mission in a 50k system = +4%
1 mission in a 25bil system = +0.01%

A total victory in a 50k or 25bil = 4%. That is inconsistency and inconsistency is bad.
 
There is an upper limit to how many factions can be in one system. I think it's seven.
Yep - seven is the soft limit. Below 7, you can expand normally to the system. At 7, you can only expand to the system by invasion [1]. Above 7, untested so far.
In almost all cases there'll be a suitable system below 7 in range, so it's not come up much so far, but it provides a useful safety valve against systems becoming too static.

[1] My Pre-3.3 summary is at https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ent-Thinking?p=6664276&viewfull=1#post6664276 - the rules of invasion itself haven't changed significantly since then, but the changes to how conflicts work have made them much easier to get.
 
"Winning Conflict Zone objectives is the most obvious way to help win a war." - Does this imply CZ wins will have more of an effect than combat bonds currently do?
 
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All it takes is consistent communication like the past few days regarding mechanics & regardless of issues, the player base will be far more understanding. We do love this game.

Much appreciation.

Thanks Will.
 
I am very concerned that this change will heavily penalize groups that have worked to earn as many assets as possible — a challenging and, perhaps until now, a strategically valuable objective. Settlements and installations will be factors, but it is my hope that we do not find that the net result of this change is to allow factions at the bottom end of a system to move directly for control with no roadblocks.
Oooooh, good point. This is defeinitely concerning.


As has already been discussed on the BGS forum, we need better tools to help us plan around these changes. Hunting through planetary maps to find the owner of settlements is tedious. There's got to be a better way.
I think the easiest solution would be to simply add it to local reports on each faction. We can see which assets are threatened, so why not just add a list at the bottom of each faction report the assets said faction owns?
 
Thanks, I just have one thing to ask.

Can weapons trading, troop/rebels transport, and related activities contribute to conflicts somehow to wars and civil wars?

Warriors win battles, logistics wins wars!
 
Thanks Will,

I can't give a more in-depth reply right now, but feel the following points are very relevant:

  • Previously, the day's score was determined by diverting faction influence inputs (subject to the usual rules of combat actions affecting War and Civil War and non-combat actions affecting Elections). However, we've now changed faction Conflict scores to be driven by their own set of equations.
Under the old BGS system, faction influence inputs (subject to the usual rules of combat actions...), in the case of war and civil war this was just one thing.

Combat Bonds.

I think it's incredibly important given the new Conflict Zones and the knowledge of people being able to "game" the submission of combat bonds to provide some explicit clarity around the following:
- Does resolving a conflict zone give a proportionate boost to winning the war? That quote suggests actually winning the conflict zone, until recently, had no effect. Resolving a CZ should be substantially more effective than handing in bonds.
- Do missions count for winning the war? Historically, they have not, but they really should. This also creates the argument that Combat Bonds should have *no* effect for winning a war (rather, winning conflict zones and doing missions should)
- Do USS scenarios count for winning a war? Given that, on last check, effects didn't seem to be applied for resolving a conflict zone (such as reduced/increased reputation with the relevant faction), my gut tells me not (likewise for resolving CZs)

And secondly, on this part:

  • We've already made a several changes for how negative actions apply negative economic and security effects, and also how quickly the EP & SP bars drain back towards the centre. We expect to make further tweaks once we've analysed the results of this set of changes.
I'm not a fan of the drain away, but I guess I don't have stats to assess that. But I'll throw this one here:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...gonistic-PvE?p=7346033&viewfull=1#post7346033

Bottom line: Drain-aways are just a band-aid solution for the fact that activities which can cause negative states are not prevalent enough, nor incentivised enough.
 
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Further on the topic of clarifying Conflict Zone impacts, what is the impact of leaving a Conflict Zone in progress? Does this count as a loss (or partial loss) for the player's pledged faction? Is there an effect if no pledge has taken place?

This concern is exacerbated by the ongoing issue with CZ's that move in normal space if they spawn near some bodies, effectively forcing an abandoned CZ as they cannot be completed.
 
Its what I would like to see. I don't like that I can be allied with my enemy or rival. There should be rival factions and whenever you do a job for you faction you lose rep with the rival. It could really spice things up a bit if they become hostile and start sending out assasins after you.

Totally agree with you guys!
 
I am very new to this player faction play and before the changes today we a small group of players are trying to understand this this is our 3rd war.

The last war we did on day 1 we did very little CZ due to time zones and etc and one that day the other 4 days we hit CZ hard as much as we could handed in our bond and such only to loose the 4 days in a row. S the last 3 days of the war we did zero combat and won each day ( sounds strange to us and i hope you).

On all the CZ we did we won each time so how come the side that lost 20 CZ win on the day again don't make sense to me

The new war which started on thursday this week and we focused on just trade till the ticker of today and you hit us with NEW UPDATE. We lost so we have now done some combat and hope to be doing more before the ticker kicks in on the next day to find out how well we done.

Why not have a 2 bars on the screen where we can all see that days progress of who is winning that days war at least for me i would be able to Visualized my progress on that days war we have right now and may be in the future of Elite.

Because right now players say do less combat and trade to win and other say do more combat and win as for the bonds systems my self i would like to gone as the pay on them is not much if we have to keep handing them in after every fight we do take us away from the long fights we could be having.

I think that a more Visualized scale for that days ticker should be more in plain sight easy to read at least for me it way better to under stand than having to read forum posts saying this and that to win as for me right now their is no Clear to win u need to do this and do loose you need to do this.

So why not have the Visualized bars for us to easily understand.

Sorry if it feels i not read the post by Wil i just think its all over too complicated than it should be.

Sorry if doesn't make sense but i suffer from dyslexia to reading is not my strong point hence why i just like to to be made most simplified for players like my self
 
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I've discussed this point with the leaders of my PP group who have a lot more experience with system manipulation than me and according to them you are poking on outdated information (as a lot of people tend to do in this forum by just repeating what others have said somewhere some time ago). Should be fixed by now. Otherwise, prove me wrong.
This is fairly common because some assume pre-3.3 rules are all still place. This is simply not true. Granted the BGS wasn't rebuilt from the ground up, all the new aspects alter the environment in such a way that classic mechanics are no longer viable on their own. Combat Zones are indeed the best way to win war (mileage may vary because bugs). Since 3.3 dropped, my faction has won every single war by winning CZs and turning in bonds, yet CZ victories are surely most important. I have tested this (accidentally) by soloing CZs for days in a war (my PMF is tiny) and not turning in bonds. Every . . . single . . . time, winning battles meant winning days. Supericially, the mechanics seem pretty straight forward: if I fight in 4 CZs and win 3, my PMF wins the day (assuming no player opposition) because my faction had more wins than NPC faction.


I think it's incredibly important given the new Conflict Zones and the knowledge of people being able to "game" the submission of combat bonds to provide some explicit clarity around the following:
- Does resolving a conflict zone give a proportionate boost to winning the war? That quote suggests actually winning the conflict zone, until recently, had no effect. Resolving a CZ should be substantially more effective than handing in bonds.
Correct. And from my experience before the very first patch following 3.3, CZs have been the primary means to win the day, assuming individual battles are won. Will's post also states that CZs are the "obvious" way to win, which basically means they are the surest and best way.


- Do missions count for winning the war? Historically, they have not, but they really should. This also creates the argument that Combat Bonds should have *no* effect for winning a war (rather, winning conflict zones and doing missions should)
Historically they have not but this update fixes that as long as they are combat missions. My PMF actually started war today with the update and the mission board is populated with "war effort" missions in the conflict system, something we haven't encountered before. Maybe that's coincidence or the update included more obvious missions. /me shrugs


I am very new to this player faction play and before the changes today we a small group of players are trying to understand this this is our 3rd war.

The last war we did on day 1 we did very little CZ due to time zones and etc and one that day the other 4 days we hit CZ hard as much as we could handed in our bond and such only to loose the 4 days in a row. S the last 3 days of the war we did zero combat and won each day ( sounds strange to us and i hope you).

On all the CZ we did we won each time so how come the side that lost 20 CZ win on the day again don't make sense to me

The new war which started on thursday this week and we focused on just trade till the ticker of today and you hit us with NEW UPDATE. We lost so we have now done some combat and hope to be doing more before the ticker kicks in on the next day to find out how well we done.

Why not have a 2 bars on the screen where we can all see that days progress of who is winning that days war at least for me i would be able to Visualized my progress on that days war we have right now and may be in the future of Elite.

Because right now players say do less combat and trade to win and other say do more combat and win as for the bonds systems my self i would like to gone as the pay on them is not much if we have to keep handing them in after every fight we do take us away from the long fights we could be having.

I think that a more Visualized scale for that days ticker should be more in plain sight easy to read at least for me it way better to under stand than having to read forum posts saying this and that to win as for me right now their is no Clear to win u need to do this and do loose you need to do this.

So why not have the Visualized bars for us to easily understand.

Sorry if it feels i not read the post by Wil i just think its all over too complicated than it should be.

Sorry if doesn't make sense but i suffer from dyslexia to reading is not my strong point hence why i just like to to be made most simplified for players like my self
There is a lot to unpack here and some information you may not realize to look for. So I'll just throw some bullet answers.

  • There may have been bonuses handed out per previous rules that are now gone.
  • Have you checked traffic reports? This will tell you if others (players) are potentially contributing to the conflict effort, and maybe against your faction.
  • If you are trading in the system in which you are at war, it does NOTHING. All factions engaged in conflict have their influence locked and only war efforts aid in the conflict. If you were trading and not fighting, that could explain your loss for Thursday.
  • Trading is not and was not a viable contribution to war (even if delivering military commodities makes sense). You may be confusing a conflict with a Community Goal. Community Goals can have CZs and offer trade options.
  • Since days won are calculated upon the server tick, a real-time bar would be useless. Instead, you already have information at your disposal via local news boards. When docked at a station within a conflict system, scroll through the factions in the middle-bottom and look at the factions engaged in war (or elections). Within there you will find how many days won/lost and assets at risk.

Hope this helps.

I'm sure someone might correct me, but keep in mind I am only using post-3.3 BGS experience. A very intelligent and dilligent group is gearing up to start pulling real data and updating the math (looking at you, Jane Turner), and I'm looking forward to their findings. Hopefully we'll have more detailed information soon.
 
[*]To reduce the number of Conflicts in the galaxy and to make them more meaningful, Conflicts will now only be triggered during invasions or when one or both factions control an asset that's at risk by that Conflict.[/list]

So this means that after entering a system (or if we've worked to push a faction down to the bottom of the INF hierarchy and in so doing stripped all their assets), there are FEWER roadblocks than before in climbing from the bottom and potentially (re)gaining control of a system. Because the faction doing the climbing may now ONLY have to fight factions that control assets, rather than having to fight every faction on the way up.

Not sure if this is a good thing. After having worked our butts off for months prior to these changes, pushing a faction down into the muck, they now only have to work half as hard to climb back to the top and threaten retaking control of a system (and yes, I consider wars "work" now that we have to fight (almost) all seven days (given that such things as double and possibly even triple wins are possible). :-/
 
Not sure where you got this opinion from or how old the information your statement is based on actually still is. Some people from my PP group who have a deep knowledge and long experience with reverse engineering, didn't even bother to hand in combat bonds anymore and yet are effectively winning wars by solving combat zones.

I do agree though that an official word from the devs about the issue would go a long way.

... and not to say CZs are now bug free - far from it! I've ran into a few rare bugs or inconsistencies just recently, though very hard to report as it's almost impossible to reproduce them.

So, if you re-read my post, you'll note I said it needs to give a proportionate boost. Although again, I'm not convinced the influence effect is being counted, based on the fact the reputation effect *does not* occur. That second bit about the reputation effects is most definitely true, and I'm currently participating in a war where I've had multiple CZ resolutions, and I'm still allied with no negative impact to reputation against the enemy.

But assuming CZs do count, again, emphasis on proportionately. If a combat bond transaction counts for 1 point, what's a Low-CZ count for? 2 points? That's not adequate... I can more quickly do combat bond submissions than resolve a CZ with that comparison. Assuming a combat bond transaction is the lowest possible influencer and it's worth 1 "point"... a Low CZ should be worth at least 5. And based on my clearance rate for CZs, Medium should be 10 points and high is 20. It is next to impossible to verify that, and I highly doubt, given the various issues to-date with CZs, that anyone would have done it because it would either take at least a month of consistent effort. But based on my recent experiences with opposition in conflict, I'd suggest the relative score of CZs is much lower. We need validation of that.

On that note, there's numerous people saying that Missions now count. If that's 100% true, then FD have now introduced a bug. Missions were made to not count explicitly because massacre missions double-dipped influence effects with bonds. This is just further justification for removing any effects of submitting bonds. But while Bonds are still effective, what even is their effect? Is it still transactional? Or has it been fixed so that 1m in bonds is 10 times more effective than 100k in bonds. And in that case, again, how's it compare to CZ resolutions?

This is fairly common because some assume pre-3.3 rules are all still place. This is simply not true. Granted the BGS wasn't rebuilt from the ground up, all the new aspects alter the environment in such a way that classic mechanics are no longer viable on their own. Combat Zones are indeed the best way to win war (mileage may vary because bugs). Since 3.3 dropped, my faction has won every single war by winning CZs and turning in bonds, yet CZ victories are surely most important. I have tested this (accidentally) by soloing CZs for days in a war (my PMF is tiny) and not turning in bonds. Every . . . single . . . time, winning battles meant winning days. Supericially, the mechanics seem pretty straight forward: if I fight in 4 CZs and win 3, my PMF wins the day (assuming no player opposition) because my faction had more wins than NPC faction.
I don't doubt your observations, but challenge that your assessment is a "smoking gun". It is *impossible* to tell if there is outside influence affecting your outcomes, as you can fight a war and stay invisible to daily traffic reports if you never leave the system. But again, there is no information about the efficacy of clearing CZs and their proportional impact on bonds, and I have numerous examples where I've overcome the effects of, say, a low CZ, with a small handful of bond submissions for the other side.

For clarity. I'm not saying CZs don't count, just suggesting that CZs don't count enough... because hitting on your next comment:

Will's post also states that CZs are the "obvious" way to win, which basically means they are the surest and best way.

It's not the first time FD would've said certain things are meant to have an effect, and haven't.... so says years of flavour text for war missions saying it'll help, when they don't.

Historically they have not but this update fixes that as long as they are combat missions. My PMF actually started war today with the update and the mission board is populated with "war effort" missions in the conflict system, something we haven't encountered before. Maybe that's coincidence or the update included more obvious missions. /me shrugs

It's highly likely your PMF was suffering from this bug, which was present from 2017 til late last year: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/410124-Still-no-War-theme-missions-when-in-a-War-state

War-themed missions have been in the game for a long time, and have never had an effect.

Thing is, everything you've said is, for sure, how the game *should* work. But given the lengthy history of things simply not working that way, and frankly, how off-mark some of the big groups were with their bugreporting, compared to Will's assessment here, I take a grain of salt with everything people observe (even my own observations).

For any confidence, FD *must* confirm what specific activities will have an effect, and which won't, for the given states (just like the whole, incorrect, "selling biowaste on the commodities market causes outbreak" claims). Just that as a minimum would work, because statements like this:

(subject to the usual rules of combat actions affecting War and Civil War and non-combat actions affecting Elections).

While sounding all well and good, fall apart when you realise "Missions" count as non-combat, so an Assassination or Massacre mission works for Elections, but not for War.
 
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