PvP Behold, the great Fdev Ganker filter..

The absence of such titles sounds like a pretty good reason to not be playing such titles.
There are currently no sports contests that I enjoy so I don't watch any of them.
What I'm not going to do is force myself to sit through something I don't enjoy just to be doing it.

I play Elite: Dangerous because it's the absolute closest thing to the experience I want that is currently available. This is not mutually exclusive with, nor in any way in contradiction to, it also not being anywhere near the experience I want.
That is different than the commander to whom I was responding; the one that claimed he didn't like ganking at all.
If you don't like any of the PvP features and down grade to ganking, which you also don't enjoy, then you're in the wrong game or in denial.

The ability to mode switch at will throws another wrench into organic PvP by allowing anyone to avoid combat that is not entirely on their terms.
It absolutely doesn't throw a wrench into anything - without solo play those in solo play wouldn't be here.
It isn't having the impact on open play that you imagine.
BTW, calling something 'organic' doesn't make it farm fresh or wholesome.
FDev did the right thing here.

Inability to directly transfer funds doesn't matter much when credits are free and even material collection has been simplified to the extreme...not that 'twinking' is an issue because piloting ability has always been vastly slower to accrue than CMDR assets.
It is important so that alternate accounts cannot be used to generate funds and transfer them to the out-law account (with any ease). One of the most infuriating things about many PvP titles I've played is when a criminal player transfers all of his ill gotten gain to a lawful player alternate thereby putting it out of reach of justice. FDev did the right thing here.

A bubble ten combat-ship jumps in diameter is essentially fast travel.
In Ultima Online, the developers have reported, there was a time when gankers could terrorize the entire map with fast travel. They could hit every significant dungeon in under 1 hour - there was literally no place to hide. Compare with a ganker in Deciat who just caught wind of a noob wing in Colonia. Is the ganker in Deciat going to interfer with their evening? Nope. FDev did travel right in this game.

Not that bounties matter due to other issues, but in the absence of these more glaring problems the bounty cap could put a significant damper on the incentive to pursue criminal CMDRs.
Squads of gankers would just harvest each other to minimize rebuy costs. This was illustrated by Harry Potter's rebuy a few months ago. Again, FDev got this absolutely right.

I've seen abuse in many other games and there are some key things here that FDev nipped in the bud.
While there is plenty of room for improvment the foundations are solid.
 
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I agree with you that PvP can be better.
I've not even done any real PvP yet and even a glaring noob like myself can see many of the obvious problems.
In short, I think we've similar desires and we've much in agreement.

However.

The phrase "many of us gankers don't wanna do it" is utter nonsense.
I'm sympathetic that the mechanics you want aren't in place (we agree there), but the golly-gee ganking excuse is ridiculous.
If PvP is your thing there is no reason to be playing a title that doesn't scratch the itch exactly the way you want it scratched.

1: PvP is important to me.
2: I don't care for the PvP in Elite Dangerous.
3: Therefore, I'll spend my time doing PvP stuff I don't enjoy.

^---- [derp, derp, derp]

So no, I'm not buying it - I'm with you when you want to see change but when FDev becomes the excuse for a weak play style then I'm out.

And for the record, there are numerous things FDev has done right when it comes to PvP.
1: Full on solo/group play mode while still in the same universe it totally hot and allows different communities to thrive.
2: Inability to transfer funds to other players prevents twinking. <-- very important.
3: Proper distance between players/no fast travel is a huge feature (it allows remote communities to develop)
4: Two million bounty cap is absolutely brilliant.

FDev has some important fundamentals in place - yeah, they've got some work to do but they've a good philosophy in play.
The mode system is actually quite brilliant, and allows differing styles to exist as long as proper mode is chosen. Of course some people have always disagreed with this core philosophy in the game design

As far as the next two on the list I am not sure how big an issue they are but with the expansion to Colonia and now The Witch Head area we shall see.

The bounty cap while it may anger some it is a needed restriction since some commanders simply cant help themselves from collusion and exploiting the mechanic. Of course if people could be trusted....

Never trust anyone in a PvP game
 
The bounty cap while it may anger some it is a needed restriction since some commanders simply cant help themselves from collusion and exploiting the mechanic. Of course if people could be trusted....

Never trust anyone in a PvP game
Typical Ganker Logic:
Game has too much money available; therefore, I gank noobs because the money on criminal bounties isn't high enough.
 
Typical Ganker Logic:
Game has too much money available; therefore, I gank noobs because the money on criminal bounties isn't high enough.
It interests me that the mechanics have to condone player behavior for so many. We all want the reward for the time playing the game when in fact the game itself should be the reward or the joy. What I mean by that is whatever happened to "It's the journey, not the destination?"

I ganked because it was fun. Then I found stuff that was more fun than ganking. I'm glad I know the dark arts, as it were, because those still come in handy sometimes.
 
I ganked because it was fun.
I'm not a ganker and I don't care for the play-style; however, this right here is the only justification that makes any sense.
If 'fun' isn't the top reason on your list then you're doing gaming wrong. Period.

All this weird nonsense about 'PvP is broken; therefore, I gank.' and 'teaching the develoeprs a lesson' and all that goofiness is posted by two types of players:
1: Those that like to gank and just are afraid to admit it.
2: Those who've not woken up to the fact they need to move onto a different game.

That is why I never bought into the conclusions of the gank filter (original op) while at the same time admitting it had several valid points.
 
Lol the development team is killing the player base way better than the best gankers ever could

Powderpanic
The Voice of Griefing
I think it is pretty safe to say that about the time a person becomes a ganker they've reached end-of-life for the game.
That person has gotten to the point where everything else is boring and it isn't long before ganking is boring.
Then one day the person is like, "Wait, I'm not having fun."

Cue new game.

I'm excited about the new content they've planned for 2020.
I'd be surprised if I'm still here in 2021 - I usually don't stick with a game for more than 2 years.
 
The absence of such titles sounds like a pretty good reason to not be playing such titles.

I play Elite: Dangerous because it's the absolute closest thing to the experience I want that is currently available. This is not mutually exclusive with, nor in any way in contradiction to, it also not being anywhere near the experience I want.
Out of curiosity, Morbad, what is the experience you want? Would it have a player driven economy? Ability to build, own, and conquer assets? Is such a game viable and possible with a game whose forte' is its flight model and with a game with relatively little lore (unlike say Lord of the Rings)?

I must say that creating a history of a brand new, albeit virtual brave world would be intoxicating. I am hoping and guessing that is what is happening to a small extent in Colonia?

Hopefully the next year's expansion may address some of these wishes.

o7
 
The bounty cap while it may anger some it is a needed restriction since some commanders simply cant help themselves from collusion and exploiting the mechanic. Of course if people could be trusted....
And what are wing missions where you can do completely nothing and receive 30mln share? Most of my elite trade rank comes from this. Capping bounties on pvp kills is ridiculous, it makes no sense given difficulty of killing experienced players in engineered ships, i think FD is fixated about piloting skills not having too much impact on game in general, it's also seen in pve, where game doesn't reward skills, whatever it's is undermining, bounty hunting or assassination missions, it's all flat, and it's look like made for purpose and i wonder what is it...
 
And what are wing missions where you can do completely nothing and receive 30mln share? Most of my elite trade rank comes from this. Capping bounties on pvp kills is ridiculous, it makes no sense given difficulty of killing experienced players in engineered ships, i think FD is fixated about piloting skills not having too much impact on game in general, it's also seen in pve, where game doesn't reward skills, whatever it's is undermining, bounty hunting or assassination missions, it's all flat, and it's look like made for purpose and i wonder what is it...
My guess is that the PvP bounties are capped to create a money sink for the bad guys.

If you and I are evil and each of us has a 500 million bounty, which we end up paying when we die, then we could just murder each other to start over again at 0.
The 500 million bounty I'd collect on you would cover my rebuy costs and vice versa.

I've seen this in other games - that is, where bad guys end up collecting their own bounties.
FDev is avoiding that loophole.
 
The only way to get out of the loophole would be to have the criminal punished in more ways than just paying a fine. But then you have to wonder if the criminal would still be able to enjoy the game. Sounds silly but you have to make the game fun for those people too.
 
Out of curiosity, Morbad, what is the experience you want? Would it have a player driven economy? Ability to build, own, and conquer assets? Is such a game viable and possible with a game whose forte' is its flight model and with a game with relatively little lore (unlike say Lord of the Rings)?

I must say that creating a history of a brand new, albeit virtual brave world would be intoxicating. I am hoping and guessing that is what is happening to a small extent in Colonia?

Hopefully the next year's expansion may address some of these wishes.

o7
Ultimately, I want a first person life-simulator in a setting that features at least one spacefaring civilization and personally owned/operated spacecraft. I want the setting to have it's own internal consistency, that while not following our reality precisely, takes verisimilitude seriously, allowing gameplay to stem from the rules of it's setting rather than defining them. I'd be fine with most aspects of this simulation being abstracted (but they should still be simulated and persistent), but I want the piloting and direct player-character interactions to be largely non-abstract.

I think player characters actions should have whatever impact they would rationally have on the setting, but I'd also want the setting to be able to carry on without player input.

As far as the lore vs. game mechanics dichotomy...I don't see them as opposed. Ideally, they would be intimately intertwined, just like history and physics are in our reality. The lore would define much of the game's mechanisms, and the games mechanisms, used by player characters and NPCs would be the means through which new lore was created.

Of course, what I want is largely beyond the purview of ED, or at least highly impractical.

I'd settle for some bug fixes, enforcement of existing rules, the fleshing out of mechanisms we should always have had (an actual economy and a demographics simulation), and some consequences.
 
It absolutely doesn't throw a wrench into anything - without solo play those in solo play wouldn't be here.
It isn't having the impact on open play that you imagine.
BTW, calling something 'organic' doesn't make it farm fresh or wholesome.
FDev did the right thing here.
It absolutely does throw a wrench into open competitive PvP with the BGS and PowerPlay mechanics.

Let's take powerplay, where 99 percent of your enemies are in solo mode grinding merits. That makes PvP absolutely irrelevant. The only way to win is to grind. Since solo grind mertis/influence are worth the same as open, it's a disincentive to play open.

Irrelevant PvP means it has no point or effect on the game. If it has no effect, then it's not any fun. So, instead of doing something pointless, PvPers go and do other things. Usually bad things to other players.

The "safe space" design is horrible, and people who want PvP to matter in the game versus those who don't are never going to agree on how to fix it. But it needs to be fixed somehow.
 
That is different than the commander to whom I was responding; the one that claimed he didn't like ganking at all.
It's the same premise and the same argument.

Ganking is suboptimal for Kaim. It's also the best he's got, so that's what he does. If he had better options for his proclivities, he'd utilize them, but ganking provides some degree of entertainment for him in the meantime.

It absolutely doesn't throw a wrench into anything - without solo play those in solo play wouldn't be here.
Those using Solo play as a place to hide from the consequences of what they do in other modes shouldn't be here, IMO.

It's not other modes I have a problem with, it's the ability to switch between them, especially on short notice.

It is important so that alternate accounts cannot be used to generate funds and transfer them to the out-law account (with any ease). One of the most infuriating things about many PvP titles I've played is when a criminal player transfers all of his ill gotten gain to a lawful player alternate thereby putting it out of reach of justice. FDev did the right thing here.
Something being on a 'lawful' shouldn't put it out of reach of anyone.

Still a moot point in ED, since assets are not a limiting factor except in extreme cases.

In Ultima Online, the developers have reported, there was a time when gankers could terrorize the entire map with fast travel. They could hit every significant dungeon in under 1 hour - there was literally no place to hide. Compare with a ganker in Deciat who just caught wind of a noob wing in Colonia. Is the ganker in Deciat going to interfer with their evening? Nope. FDev did travel right in this game.
Modes and instancing issues are vastly more likely to be a barrier than travel time itself.

If I had my way, crossing the bubble would be a weekend long adventure of uncertain outcome and getting to Colonia would essentially be a one way trip.

Squads of gankers would just harvest each other to minimize rebuy costs. This was illustrated by Harry Potter's rebuy a few months ago. Again, FDev got this absolutely right.
Nothing about a system that would be able to provide an incentive to claim a bounty need imply that doing so would be a zero sum game. As long as it costs the CMDR of the destroyed vessel substantially more than the bounty value, it would prevent the abuse you describe.[/QUOTE]
 
And what are wing missions where you can do completely nothing and receive 30mln share? Most of my elite trade rank comes from this. Capping bounties on pvp kills is ridiculous, it makes no sense given difficulty of killing experienced players in engineered ships, i think FD is fixated about piloting skills not having too much impact on game in general, it's also seen in pve, where game doesn't reward skills, whatever it's is undermining, bounty hunting or assassination missions, it's all flat, and it's look like made for purpose and i wonder what is it...
So again some commanders just cant be trusted to not game the system. At least the bounty cap stops one of the ways to collude.
 
It interests me that the mechanics have to condone player behavior for so many. We all want the reward for the time playing the game when in fact the game itself should be the reward or the joy. What I mean by that is whatever happened to "It's the journey, not the destination?"

I ganked because it was fun. Then I found stuff that was more fun than ganking. I'm glad I know the dark arts, as it were, because those still come in handy sometimes.
The only honest answer and the only answer needed. All this waxing lyrical about high-and-mighty motivations and "ohhh I want to have proper fights but my hand has been forced" and blah blah blah blah blah, the endless whinging to the effect of "I can't go in open because I'll I'll get INSTANTLY GANKED by A MILLION FDLS OUTSIDE EVERY STARPORT" from the pve crowd, the constant "A BLOO BLOO BLOO, PEOPLE ARE PLAYING THE GAME AND I CAN'T RUIN IT FOR THEM" from the open-only crowd, everyone bashing out the unaganker's manifesto about how wronged they've been by what-the-hell-ever-seriously-who-CARES to "justify" whatever they do.

"I do it because it's fun" is the only honest reason that exists, and it's the only one that's needed.

Have gun, will travel.
 
It absolutely does throw a wrench into open competitive PvP with the BGS and PowerPlay mechanics.

Let's take powerplay, where 99 percent of your enemies are in solo mode grinding merits. That makes PvP absolutely irrelevant. The only way to win is to grind. Since solo grind mertis/influence are worth the same as open, it's a disincentive to play open.
Wouldn't 99 percent of your allies also be in solo grinding merits?
It seems to me the sort of thing that would balance out for the most part.
Mabye PowerPlay was always intended to include both PvP and PvE players?

Irrelevant PvP means it has no point or effect on the game. If it has no effect, then it's not any fun. So, instead of doing something pointless, PvPers go and do other things. Usually bad things to other players.
Ganking noobs is about the most pointless thing in the game.
I don't believe that people leave the other PvP options behind, with the excuse that they're pointless, only to embrace something even less meaningful.
 
Perhaps it should, perhaps it shouldn't, but the crux of the matter is the game is what it is - it was conceived by its designer as a multiplayer from the outset, but as a game where PvP combat shouldn't be the one ring that rules them all... with many other facets and open-world play options. The basic premise, in all honesty, was probably naïve that all the things could co-exist all together in a coherent and synergistic fashion.
FDev have just done their best to develop the game in multiple areas (and done what they've been told to do by its designer).
It's not all good news, but at least we all love the game enough as it is to care about it.
Naïve? I don't think so. I think the basic premise was "Look at this scientifically accurate galaxy we created by procedural generation!"
Then they said "go out there and do whatever the hell it is that takes your fancy!"

I believe this 'anarchy' that sparked so many discussions was quite deliberate. No narrative. Just a galaxy to play around IN. Not to play WITH. Which makes it different from a lot of other games. But I always liked and still like that premise.

Now, people encountering other people and be able to engage them in combat has always been on their roadmap. Which is prefectly fine in the context of what I mentioned above.

Personally, I feel they slipped up hugely by introducing engineers. Or more specifically, engineered weapons / shields that don't improve the standard design by a few percent and have a few drawbacks, but just flat-out increase damage dealt / shield strength by 500%. Now that was a ridiculous choice. It reduced all pvp combat to a rock-paper-scissors game. And they made any PVE-build immediately inviable when put up against a PVP-build.
And that's the major fault Fdev made in my opinion.

I hardly ever get into PvP, but am not averse to it, and I like those guys generally. Fdev just made a huge mistake with the engineers, as it only worked towards splitting the community. It really is one of their greatest mistakes, and I bet they know it as well, but they always underestimated the fact that it's really hard to reign-in a certain gameplay aspect once you have introduced it. Just imagine how much more you would be prepared to face a random commander if we were still "stuck" with only non-engineered A-rated ships. I know I'd be fighting other cmdrs a lot more..

Still, there's a lot more besides PvP to do. And fortunately, I seem to be able to fill my playtime with those things well enough. And I still enjoy the game. But it doesn't take away from the fact that I'd be engaging a lot more commanders on a level foot when engineers wouldn't have been introduced.
 
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