Ships Bi-Weave shields in PVP, is it so clear cut?

[Bunnyh]

After reading a lot about the subject, I've gathered that the common opinion is that Bi-Weave shields aren't good for PVP. I can understand most of the reasoning, but I'm still not totally convinced.

If both players stack shields to the max in similar ships, doesn't the Prismatic shield user have a time limit for the fight, after which Bi-Weave would come on top? Seeing how the fights last easily over 10 minutes with loads of SCBs, and a Bi-Weave shield regenerates fully in under 4 minutes even with multiple Guardian reinforcements, I don't understand why Prismatic shields would work better. The Prismatic user could boost max MJ more easily, but then they lose some resistances, which the Bi-Weave player will be stacking as much as possible, to make their effective regen as strong as possible.

With max resistance and as many SCBs as possible on the Bi-Weave ship, can the Prismatic user still fare better in an extended, 10min+ fight? Logically there is a duration after which the Prismatic user just cannot keep up. If they stack MJ, they lose on effective regen through resistances, with the effect growing worse when lots of SCBs are used. If they stack resistances, they aren't getting a lot of extra MJ from the Prismatic shield alone.

Are the fights really short enough that this tipping point where Bi-Weaves catch up and start winning isn't normally reached? Or am I missing something else? I'm mainly a Corvette player now, maybe the Prismatic shields are more clearly the better choice only with smaller ships, with less space for SCBs to extend the fight?

 

[Screemonster]

Biweaves would be fantastic if hulltanking was worth it and didn't just get your modules destroyed immediately. Weigh up having your shields drop and come back versus just spending a ton of power on having a huge shield pool that once it's gone, it's gone.

As long as shields provide 100% perfect module protection (and can be rebooted to 50% of max strength in less than a minute, provided you get a chance to break off) raw numbers have something of an advantage. That said, 50% of a prismatic is generally going to fair slightly worse than 100% of a biweave.

 

[Bunnyh]

For clarity, I'm only comparing up to the point the shields drop. The first one to lose shields might as well be dead. So let's just forget broken regen or rebooting tactics for this one, I admit those could sometimes matter but it gets harder to analyze.

So, when comparing just both types of shields to the point where one loses them, Prismatics are always better? What I'm saying is that over long enough time, the Bi-Weave will prevail because its better active regen (and I like boosting that further with Fast Charge) will outrun the Prismatic's initial higher MJ. This effect is amplified by stacking resists, and the drop of max MJ from choosing resist boosters over HD boosters is quite easily offset with an increasing number of SCBs. What's the error in this logic? Or if there is no error, is the average fight time just not enough to get there?

 

[Codger]

Shields do not regenerate when under fire, so your Bi-Weaves are not constantly regenerating. Only when they are not being hit, after a delay. That's my understanding.

Here's a long discussion of the numbers: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/regeneration-rate.511880/

 

[Bunnyh]

Shields do not regenerate when under fire, so your Bi-Weaves are not constantly regenerating. Only when they are not being hit, after a delay. That's my understanding.

Whoa, really? That would obviously trash my argument completely. But it's the first time I hear of this. What would be the timeout for regen to start? I asked my friend to attack me with an unengineered gimballed large beam, which after resists does less DPS than my regen rate is. I never dropped below 100% (or if it's rounded down, below 99%, this was some time ago). Maybe we didn't test long enough?

 

[Morbad]

The FDL is one of the ships that benefits least from bi-weaves vs. prismatics in most PvP encounters, due to it's potential for very high-up front shielding, a relatively small shield generator, and generally lower hull integrity. Depending on scenario, I'll often get two or three collapse/regen cycles, or even more in some 1v1s. Against slower vessels, especially ones that rely on high alpha attacks with non-hitscan weapons, there is also considerable time where active regen is in effect. Over the course of a fight this can add up to significant extra shielding.

Other ships that can mount larger shield generators and/or distributors can get even more from a bi-weave. The Kraits (which can get decent shielding with a single booster and can run class six fast charge biweaves without bottoming out SYS), Chieftain/Challenger/Crusader, and even FGS will often survive a great many collapse/regen cycles, if not subject to considerable focus.

Viability declines again with the largest ships, despite their large distributors and sheild gens, as they are less able to evade fire and can have proportionally stronger upfront shielding.

What would be the timeout for regen to start?

2-3 seconds.

Can't interrupt collapsed regen, at least not without bottoming out the SYS cap, or cutting power to or destroying the shield generator, however.

 

[Bunnyh]

Thanks a lot for the link! So it appears that the regen rate under fire would be only 1.5/s for Bi-Weaves. 50% higher than for normal shields. The thread didn't mention if it would be lower for Prismatics, but I presume it is - or else that would certainly explain their popularity!

This makes the Bi-Weaves weaker than I thought clearly, but I'd love to know the under fire rate for Prismatics. Or the formula for calculating it if that depends on shield class. For example if the number is 0.5/s for Prismatic, it would mean Bi-Weaves catch up at least 600MJ in 10 minutes. That's probably still not enough, but at some point it would inevitably catch up. It might require an unrealistic amount of time if constantly under fire. On my Corvette though, I checked in Coriolis that a Prismatic shield would add only ~800MJ compared to Bi-Weaves. So it would take some 14 minutes to beat Prismatics when both are under fire, assuming there's a 1MJ/s regen difference in that situation.

 

[Zantigar]

Codger is correct. Shield regen is suspended for a short time whenever you take damage. A small, long-range turreted pulse laser will effectively prevent an enemy from regenerating at all.

Bi-weaves are best for PvE situations where longevity matters - lots of back to back fights with short pauses in between. Prismatic for single, all-in fights (I.e, PvP).

 

[Bunnyh]

Codger is correct. Shield regen is suspended for a short time whenever you take damage. A small, long-range turreted pulse laser will effectively prevent an enemy from regenerating at all.

Bi-weaves are best for PvE situations where longevity matters - lots of back to back fights with short pauses in between. Prismatic for single, all-in fights (I.e, PvP).

The turret suggestion seems great with this mechanic. But it doesn't seem like being under fire completely negates regen, it just makes it slower. Exact numbers on this would be greatly appreciated! And I wonder if the under fire slower regen still uses SYS power at the same rate as when you aren't under fire.

 

[Screemonster]

The turret suggestion seems great with this mechanic. But it doesn't seem like being under fire completely negates regen, it just makes it slower. Exact numbers on this would be greatly appreciated! And I wonder if the under fire slower regen still uses SYS power at the same rate as when you aren't under fire.

When your regen is interrupted, the sys drain is interrupted as well.
To test this, slap a fast charge biweave on a krait and hit up a CZ with one pip to sys. You'll find that your capacitor bottoms out after a while, but if you come under fire again the capacitor will start to regenerate slightly.

 

[Bunnyh]

When your regen is interrupted, the sys drain is interrupted as well.
To test this, slap a fast charge biweave on a krait and hit up a CZ with one pip to sys. You'll find that your capacitor bottoms out after a while, but if you come under fire again the capacitor will start to regenerate slightly.

Thanks. So presumably the SYS drain rate drops by the same fraction as regen, then. I'll have to do some tests myself, since actual numbers are hard to come by for this.

I still believe that if the under fire regen difference between Bi-Weave & Prismatic is in the ballpark of 1MJ/s or more, Bi-Weave could have the upper hand in long fights. Hopefully we can get a clearer picture of this, either with tests or with actual numbers from devs (yeah right, not happening).

 

[SergMx]

A few remarks from me.
1. 4 pips in the SYS is not only a recovery of the shield but also an increase in the shield's resistance.
2. On large ships with many hulls and its protection, as well as module protection and repair, the main factor is not the recharging of the shield, but its recovery.

 

[badibeat]

Something that I find is often overlooked with respect to shield regeneration when not collapsed, figures from coriolis.io:
- The minimal regeneration which is maintained while under fire is the same 1MJ/s for all shield generators and modifications (as long as there is SYS capacitance left).
(I have no evidence that this is 1.5 times higher for Bi-Weave shield generators, but can't rule this out. Currently all my ships have Bi-Weave).
- The normal regeneration which you get after not being hit for several seconds (while still having SYS capacitance left) is independent of rating and the same for smaller shield generators. This figure is solely determined by the Shield Generator and a 15% increase from the Fast Charge experimental:

You get only the minimum 1MJ/s from all standard A to E rated shield generators up to class 5 and Prismatic up to class 6.​

For classes 6, 7, and 8 normal regeneration increases by a factor of about 1.33 per class to 1.3MJ/s, 1.8MJ/s and 2.4MJ/s respectively.​

Bi-Weave from Class 1 to 4 have 1.8MJ/s, 1.8 times that of others. Class 5 has 2.2 times, Classes 6 onward have about 2.4 times as much.​

for standard classes 6, 7, and 8 normal regeneration increases by a factor of about 1.33 per class to 1.3MJ/s, 1.8MJ/s and 2.4MJ/s respectively.​

for Bi-Weave classes 5, 6, 7 and 8 normal regeneration increases with about the same factor to 2.2MJ/s, 3.2MJ/s 4.4MJ/s and 5.8MJ/s respectively.​

Prismatic classes 7 and 8 have 1.1MJ/s and 1.4MJ/s respectively.​

When the goal is to use regeneration to the max, then avoiding being hit (evasion), using the largest possible shield generator, pips to SYS for resistance (including against raw damage) and to charge SYS, and having high resistances to specific damage types should help.

 

[MPL3D]

Maybe it's a mistake on my side, but I'm taking SCBs out of the equation. Just talking about the raw shields. Also, I think shield boosters considerations should be ignored as well. Let's talk about two equivalent shield generators in all existing figures except the amount of shields and the regen rate.

For me the questions would be,

For how long will my shields stay up under fire?

​

BWeave=Let's say around 1 minute​

Primatics=Let's say around 5 minutes​

So, how long will my shields take to recover?

BWeave=Let's say around 1 minute​

Primatics=Let's say around 10 minutes​

Will my ship survive to see the shields up again?

BWeave=probably yes​

Primatics=probably no​

How many times can the ship sustain a shield down state?

BWeave=1,2,...3?​

Primatics=1​

The big question, how much the hull/modules will be damaged while my shields are down and still recovering?

BWeave=hopefully less than 100% ?​

Primatics=probably 100%​

Correct me if I'm wrong but, when we talk about PvP, once the shields are down, I guess is very likely to not to see them up again.

To use biweaves is a risky tactic. In PvP, the amount of fire that can be received in a short period of time can leave you out of time for shields to get up again, even biweaves.

In my case, although I prefer biweaves myself, I think somehow I'm forced to use prismatics for PvP. Not completely sure though. Still looking forward to read your opinions, just in case biweaves have a chance yet.

 

[Northpin]

Thanks a lot for the link! So it appears that the regen rate under fire would be only 1.5/s for Bi-Weaves

Nope, while under fire there is no regen at all.
You can test it very easily with 0 pip in Sys - while under fire your Sys capacitor will not empty. 5s after you are not being shot at, the Sys capacitor will start to discharge.

A long range pulse turret with emissive - eventualy set of fire at will - will prevent your enemy to regen shields and it will also illuminate them (it will negate silent run and heatsink abusage)

 

[Viscera]

The question is, what are you doing with the ship to be under continuous fire?

Do you not evade?

And yes turrets can be a pain, but again not all ships will fit one.

It can work, but like anything, is only the paper to rock. If you come across scissors.... Oh well.

 

[Bunnyh]

Maybe it's a mistake on my side, but I'm taking SCBs out of the equation. Just talking about the raw shields.

Doing this will certainly make Bi-Weaves lose in any comparison. SCBs extend the duration of the fight by the same amount for both shield types (presuming identical resistances, of course), extending the fight. And my whole argument relies on the theory that Bi-Weaves will become the winner if the fight is extended long enough, mainly with SCBs.

This new information about shield regen under fire changes things, sure, but I'm still not sure how it works. There are conflicting claims whether regen will be completely negated under fire, or if it's just set to a reduced rate (and if so, whether the rate is different for Bi-Weaves and Prismatics). Depending on how it is, extending the fight to make Bi-Weaves win would still work given enough time, or not work at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, when we talk about PvP, once the shields are down, I guess is very likely to not to see them up again.

This is what I, too, am assuming in this discussion to make the analysis simpler. It's all about who loses the shields first, what happens after that is out of scope.

 

[MPL3D]

Alright thanks for clarifying.

Don't want to go offtopic then, I was referring to this other approach:

...Chieftain/Challenger/Crusader, and even FGS will often survive a great many collapse/regen cycles, if not subject to considerable focus...

 

[badibeat]

Nope, while under fire there is no regen at all.
You can test it very easily with 0 pip in Sys - while under fire your Sys capacitor will not empty. 5s after you are not being shot at, the Sys capacitor will start to discharge.

If you are right then I have to get better at evasion.

 

[Sinister Evil]

Shields do not regenerate when under fire, so your Bi-Weaves are not constantly regenerating. Only when they are not being hit, after a delay. That's my understanding.

Here's a long discussion of the numbers: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/regeneration-rate.511880/

What he said.


Most pvp ships aren't slow either, so keeping them outdistanced for long enough to gain any amount of shield regen to be meaningful isn't very likely.