Bigger Mini Exhibits?

[horse14t]

While playing my New World themed zoo and decided to make a garden for mini exhibits and while I like how cute and compact they are, I would like to have options on their size. Especially for bigger exhibit animals like the iguanas and snakes that need more room.
Like maybe Small, which are the normal mini exhibits already in game;
Medium, which would be the size of two mini exhibits;
and Large, which are the size of four mini exhibits.
What could also work maybe the option to combine mini exhibits by opening one of the windows that another mini exhibit is attached to, allowing the animals to wander between them.
Just a suggestion.

 

[paul78]

I agree. Definitely needed to house species like reticulated python and king cobra. Not to mention green anaconda also. I’m not sure about green anaconda in game even tho most would prefer it over the yellow. But the other two definitely have to fill a roster spot IMO.

 

[Grayyy]

Exhibits need a big overhaul in general, as they are quite boring and soulless atm.

 

[horse14t]

Exhibits need a big overhaul in general, as they are quite boring and soulless atm.

And buggy. All mini exhibit animals don't list parents and children which can make it impossible to tell who the original parents were... Especially if the random name generator names offspring the same name as their parents.

 

[NZFanatic]

I agree that we need more variety. Personally I don't think bigger is entirely necessary at the moment, though if we do get bigger animals in the future then certainly. x2 size should be the max, though, even for bigger snakes. The reason zoos keep reptiles in smaller habitats than you might think is appropriate is because reptiles often struggle to find their food and water sources if their habitat is too large in captivity (I'm not entirely sure why, but it's a thing). Plus they don't tend to move much anyway and spend a lot of time basking.

I'd like smaller ones, though. For example, one that takes up the normal grid-space but has four exhibits in it (like four windows) so you can keep 1-3 invertebrates in there. The fact that the Amazonian giant centipede, which can only live in a social group of 2, needs a tank the same size as that of a green iguana is horrendously absurd.

 

[DrBurrito]

I agree that we need more variety. Personally I don't think bigger is entirely necessary at the moment, though if we do get bigger animals in the future then certainly. x2 size should be the max, though, even for bigger snakes. The reason zoos keep reptiles in smaller habitats than you might think is appropriate is because reptiles often struggle to find their food and water sources if their habitat is too large in captivity (I'm not entirely sure why, but it's a thing). Plus they don't tend to move much anyway and spend a lot of time basking.

I'd like smaller ones, though. For example, one that takes up the normal grid-space but has four exhibits in it (like four windows) so you can keep 1-3 invertebrates in there. The fact that the Amazonian giant centipede, which can only live in a social group of 2, needs a tank the same size as that of a green iguana is horrendously absurd.

Good observation! I had mentioned the exact same thing on another thread about how the issue of smaller exhibits could be tackled with two possible solutions:

If they are to add a third glass type exhibit, I'd suggest one for smaller animals like poison dart frogs and inverts so they are easier to spot in an exhibit. To tackle height issues, they can make them half or a quarter the height and stackable to fit four meter ceilings perfectly or simply make them have 2/4 exhibits on top of each other per exhibit model by default. A third option would be to have them have a modern asymmetric design by having the total "metal area" have the same height (4m) but have the glass portion (the actual exhibit) placed irregularly on the said metal column - having two versions with the exhibit being slightly closer to the top in one and slightly closer to the ground in the other.

Perfect Solution: Large Exhibits / Aviaries / Exhibit mammals!

There's a lot of discussion on how hard it might be to include species in Planet Zoo, including certain tree-dwelling animals, and species too small to be in normal habitats but too big to be in an exhibit box. For instance, sloths spend almost ALL of their time in trees. Habitat animals are...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[VioletGrey]

I'd love to have bigger exhibits, that can house more animals before they're considered overpopulated.

 

[DrBurrito]

I'd love to have bigger exhibits, that can house more animals before they're considered overpopulated.

I'm not sure that'd be always possible though, since as you know there are group limits to exhibit animals just like habitat animals no matter how big the area is. However, larger exhibits would let us adopt larger exhibit animals like dwarf caimans, snapping turtles, green anaconda, etc.

Smaller ones would let us house inverts and poison dart frogs in easier to spot exhibits. Inclusion of both smaller and larger exhibits would still be species specific and automatically spawning the interior design once an animal is placed. I don't think same species would be able to be placed in multiple exhibit types.

 

[NZFanatic]

I'm not sure that'd be always possible though, since as you know there are group limits to exhibit animals just like habitat animals no matter how big the area is. However, larger exhibits would let us adopt larger exhibit animals like dwarf caimans, snapping turtles, green anaconda, etc.

I'm not sure about dwarf caimans, they grow as large as monitor lizards so it would throw into question whether or not an animal belongs in a habitat or an exhibit. Snapping turtles conceivably could be habitat animals as well in-game.

I agree that a larger one for green anacondas would be cool, and also some bigger reptiles that typically do require larger spaces in zoos such as eastern water dragons (could also be useful as an alternative for the iguanas).

Smaller ones would let us house inverts and poison dart frogs in easier to spot exhibits. Inclusion of both smaller and larger exhibits would still be species specific and automatically spawning the interior design once an animal is placed. I don't think same species would be able to be placed in multiple exhibit types.

My thinking is that you could still put the inverts and smaller amphibians/reptiles into larger exhibits if you wanted, but you couldn't put larger animals into smaller exhibits. So the green iguana might be able to go into the current exhibit or a bigger one, but not the smaller one. Meanwhile the golden poison frog could go into all the exhibits, just with less numbers in the smaller ones.

Unrelated, but I also had an idea about using a bigger exhibit in tandem with introducing more realistic life stages to baby animals. A lot of zoos keep baby crocodiles, tortoises, and other large reptile hatchlings in incubators before they are big enough to enter a habitat. It would be neat if we could set up an exhibit alongside a crocodile habitat, for example, and when the crocodiles have babies, we can put the babies into the exhibit until they reach a certain age. Of course the idea would be that the exhibit acts similarly to a simple storage mechanic (so the animals inside it are generated like normal exhibit animals, with a max capacity, they aren't literally the baby animal you added to them).

In essence, when you add the baby crocodiles to the exhibit, the baby crocodiles go into some invisible storage locker like the trade centre that is linked to the exhibit, and the exhibit now has a handful of baby crocs in it until they reach a certain age.

 

[DrBurrito]

I'm not sure about dwarf caimans, they grow as large as monitor lizards so it would throw into question whether or not an animal belongs in a habitat or an exhibit. Snapping turtles conceivably could be habitat animals as well in-game.

I agree that a larger one for green anacondas would be cool, and also some bigger reptiles that typically do require larger spaces in zoos such as eastern water dragons (could also be useful as an alternative for the iguanas).

Dwarf caimans, iguanas, monitors and most turtles are all typically indoor/exhibit/terrarium animals in zoos. You would of course find zoos that will house them outdoors if they have suitable weather year-round. My point was using the game's own logic to determine what belongs in a habitat and what belongs in an exhibit. Nile monitors and green iguanas are also similar sized but they have chosen to add Nile monitors as habitat and green iguanas as exhibit animals. This creates a much bigger controversy when one only needs 16 sqm and the other 375 sqm. My solution to that is adding a second, larger exhibit model that is 8 by 8 instead of 4 by 4 to house larger indoor reptiles in 64 sqm exhibits and then bringing down space needs of animals like Nile monitors down to 100 sqm to make a smoother transition.

Dwarf caimans, green iguanas and Nile monitors might all be similar sized but I think the reason why they've added Nile monitors as habitat animals is they are still amongst the largest lizards despite being similar in size to the smallest crocodilians. So think of it like a scale for each taxon, draw a line somewhere, below is exhibit, above is habitat, rather than a single one for all reptiles. This is why I think dwarf caimans would fall into the exhibit category. Oh, mind you, that line could be closer to one end in one and closer to the opposite end in the other. What I mean is only the smallest few of all crocodilians would be exhibit while only the largest of lizards would be habitat. As for snappers, climate is not a big issue, therefore in their case the lack of a diving in the game as of now, as well as their less active life-style plays a role in addition to the previously stated reasons. They might come right after giant tortoises in size in non-marine chelonians but giant tortoises do roam and pace their enclosures quite a bit. This is why I drew the habitat-exhibit line right after giant tortoises in the case of chelonians. Also keep in mind, from a game development point of view, categories you add to the game need to be utilized by more than one animal for it to be feasible. In their case this was by adding at least one species from each taxon to the exhibit category. In our case, making sure the new 64 sqm exhibit will be utilized by as many species as possible, not just one or two large snakes like the green anaconda and the reticulated python.

Unrelated, but I also had an idea about using a bigger exhibit in tandem with introducing more realistic life stages to baby animals. A lot of zoos keep baby crocodiles, tortoises, and other large reptile hatchlings in incubators before they are big enough to enter a habitat. It would be neat if we could set up an exhibit alongside a crocodile habitat, for example, and when the crocodiles have babies, we can put the babies into the exhibit until they reach a certain age. Of course the idea would be that the exhibit acts similarly to a simple storage mechanic (so the animals inside it are generated like normal exhibit animals, with a max capacity, they aren't literally the baby animal you added to them).

In essence, when you add the baby crocodiles to the exhibit, the baby crocodiles go into some invisible storage locker like the trade centre that is linked to the exhibit, and the exhibit now has a handful of baby crocs in it until they reach a certain age.

I like that idea, but I don't think they would invest in such a mechanic that would cut down on profits as well as become too confusing and detailed for the average player. Same goes for the special off-exhibit care big cat and bear cubs require during the first few months of their lives as well as off-exhibit areas that most animals in the game would require on a daily basis, including transfer/holding sections. The closest and easiest thing they could require the player to do is separate hatchlings from animals that don't provide parental care and potentially eat their young like varanids, or in the case of crocodilians if there are other adults present in the habitat. Even that would require an egg-laying mechanic to give the player time to collect the young before they are eaten, a similar problem to what we have right now with maturing animals fighting the moment they grow up, where at least they don't kill each other instantly unlike a situation that would involve hatchlings, so it is somewhat bearable.

 

[NZFanatic]

Dwarf caimans, iguanas, monitors and most turtles are all typically indoor/exhibit/terrarium animals in zoos.

Indeed, but the differential is that monitor lizards are typically far more active in zoos than iguanas. The model varies from zoo to zoo but typically you see monitor lizards in much bigger indoor enclosures than iguanas, which seem better suited to smaller exhibits.

Your idea also poses the question of whether Frontier reintroduce the concept of 'Mini-Exhibits' like they had in Zoo Tycoon 2013. Then comes the question, which animals are suitable for a mini-exhibit? Meerkats? Maybe, but also red pandas and pangolin, both of which are already established as habitat animals. In any case, the game does allow you to build indoor exhibits for the sake of realism, even if the system isn't necessarily designed with that purpose in mind, so I don't think it's necessary to create a new exhibit large enough to contain a crocodilian. Snakes are a different kettle of fish altogether - they can't be kept in open-air enclosures because they can swim, climb, and wriggle through tight spaces, so I'm all for the idea of slightly larger exhibits for big animals like the green anaconda.

 

[DrBurrito]

Indeed, but the differential is that monitor lizards are typically far more active in zoos than iguanas. The model varies from zoo to zoo but typically you see monitor lizards in much bigger indoor enclosures than iguanas, which seem better suited to smaller exhibits.

Your idea also poses the question of whether Frontier reintroduce the concept of 'Mini-Exhibits' like they had in Zoo Tycoon 2013. Then comes the question, which animals are suitable for a mini-exhibit? Meerkats? Maybe, but also red pandas and pangolin, both of which are already established as habitat animals. In any case, the game does allow you to build indoor exhibits for the sake of realism, even if the system isn't necessarily designed with that purpose in mind, so I don't think it's necessary to create a new exhibit large enough to contain a crocodilian. Snakes are a different kettle of fish altogether - they can't be kept in open-air enclosures because they can swim, climb, and wriggle through tight spaces, so I'm all for the idea of slightly larger exhibits for big animals like the green anaconda.

We are on the same page on how the level activity should be a factor in determining enclosure sizes for animals. Just like the example I gave on the giant tortoises needing more space per size due to their lifestyle as grazers thus roaming a lot more than an ambush predator like the alligator snapping turtle; varanids in my opinion also require more space than other lizards of similar size that are less active. This is why having both varanids in the game (even the smaller Nile monitor) as habitat species is an exemplary decision by Frontier to subliminally inform people varanids need a lot more space even though minimum keeping conditions are still inadequate (imo) and comparable to that of less active lizards using the same 2.5 by 2.5 TL rule.(1)(2)(3) A silent revolution has indeed started, with the Komodo dragon, which hopefully will spread over to other varanids.(4)

That being said, the values themselves set by Frontier for both the Komodo dragon and the Nile monitor are out of scale. 100 sqm for the Nile monitor and 240 sqm for the Komodo dragon would be more than sufficient - which were the values I had recommended on my accuracy feedback thread. This way you not only advocate for larger enclosures for these animals to promote improved welfare for active reptiles, but also stay within the boundaries of common sense so it is consistent in comparison to the minimum space requirements determined for endotherms in the game.

Another issue that needs to be kept in mind (other than active animals needing more space) is game design. Having less active animals constantly moving around in a habitat for animations sake would look silly, and the opposite, having active animals as glorified statues in exhibits would also look out of place. Even having constantly moving crocodiles already in the game does disturb me quite a bit, let alone having stereotypical "indoor exhibit" animals having those animations. These are the reasons behind the suggestions I've made in the earlier reply. Having an entirely new category like ZT 2013's "mini exhibits" wouldn't be feasible at this point as it will introduce a wide range of new fixed costs and we already have animals added as habitat animals in the game that would fall into that new category. Any new small endotherm should thus be added as a habitat animal from this point forward. All they need to do is lower space requirements a lot and make use of those animals as "space filler" species. The player can still build their habitats indoors if they desire. Even small arboreal animals can be added as habitat animals (requiring a ton of climbing space for vertical habitat builds) with the help of a future netting DLC for birds, sloths and small primates (including the lemurs we already have in the game - having them contained in 1 meter tall barriers doesn't make any sense even if the figure is increased to account for the jump height as they can gain traction off unclimbable surfaces that are too high to jump over and then use their hands to grab the edge; something a big cat or bear can't do with unclimbable surfaces due to weight and the lack of divergent digits to grab).

With endotherms out of question, we need game defined exhibits only for ectotherms. This is where my 3 exhibit model/size suggestion comes in. As we no longer have small mammals and birds to worry about, they'll all be glass exhibits typical of reptiles, amphibians and inverts (and possibly fish in the future) with three sizes: 2 by 2, 4 by 4 (the one in the game) and 8 by 8 to be used by the animals I described in the earlier post. Having exhibits ranging from 4 sqm to 64 sqm not only gives developers room to play with when choosing species, but also allows for a smoother transition to small habitat animal space requirements possibly starting from 50-80 sqm. Even having something like a pair of Cuvier's dwarf caimans that has a typical adult weight of 6-7 kg, which is comparable to the average weight of male green iguana at 4kg (9kg max), in a 64 sqm exhibit wouldn't only look neat but also within reason and international standards. Anything larger is out of question. A spectacled caiman for instance would be habitat.

I see this as the quickest, easiest and the only financially feasible method of including as many species as possible into the game meanwhile keeping it accurate and within the boundaries of common sense. Having a totally new "mini-exhibit" type of enclosure or having mesh/aviary/cage type exhibits using the same method the game has but with new materials, mechanics and animations would be much more costly. By adding just two more glass exhibits resized from the current one (which wouldn't take an hour to make), adding a few designs for the interior and then having a netting DLC for the endotherms simply with a new mesh or two (the term as used in game design - not to be confused with the word mesh I used earlier) to close up a habitat but using the same habitat mechanics is by far the cheapest but solid way of solving this dilemma without having to add new habitat categories, mechanics, systems, animation and rig types to the game that would cost hundreds of times more.

 

[NZFanatic]

Snip

Your logic is definitely sound and I see where you're coming from. Honestly at its core I don't disagree with the concept you're proposing (well, mostly), it's more that I don't see Frontier using the same logic. As you say, it is already jarring seeing the gharial and saltie move around as much as they do, which to me means there's a precedent set. Even if they did create a much larger exhibit type, I'm not convinced Frontier would make a small crocodilian for it, even if it does make logical sense.

As for creating a mesh roof, that's another conversation entirely, IMO, around the inclusion of birds.

Personally I'm of the belief that if we get flying birds, such as parrots and raptors, they are going to be exhibit animals like the pterosaur in Jurassic World Evolution, just with a new unique exhibit type (or types, I would hope, but really who knows?). So an aviary (or a few different aviaries) that you can place like an exhibit, and birds that follow a set path of movement around said aviary.

That's at least where I'm levelling my expectations.

Edit: I should also add that I'd be perfectly content with that kind of aviary. I love the exhibits in-game, they really fill the zoo out and make it more realistic, so even if potential aviaries were just a new kind of exhibit I'd be fine with that. It would be a lot less micromanagement, too, not having to worry about birds as full habitat animals.

 

[DrBurrito]

Your logic is definitely sound and I see where you're coming from. Honestly at its core I don't disagree with the concept you're proposing (well, mostly), it's more that I don't see Frontier using the same logic. As you say, it is already jarring seeing the gharial and saltie move around as much as they do, which to me means there's a precedent set. Even if they did create a much larger exhibit type, I'm not convinced Frontier would make a small crocodilian for it, even if it does make logical sense.

As for creating a mesh roof, that's another conversation entirely, IMO, around the inclusion of birds.

Personally I'm of the belief that if we get flying birds, such as parrots and raptors, they are going to be exhibit animals like the pterosaur in Jurassic World Evolution, just with a new unique exhibit type (or types, I would hope, but really who knows?). So an aviary (or a few different aviaries) that you can place like an exhibit, and birds that follow a set path of movement around said aviary.

That's at least where I'm levelling my expectations.

Edit: I should also add that I'd be perfectly content with that kind of aviary. I love the exhibits in-game, they really fill the zoo out and make it more realistic, so even if potential aviaries were just a new kind of exhibit I'd be fine with that. It would be a lot less micromanagement, too, not having to worry about birds as full habitat animals.

Don't get me wrong, I like the ZT 2013 mini-exhibits, and if we get pre-made animation loop type new exhibits for birds I'd be more than happy. I was only making a feasibility analysis for the cheapest and easiest way to include other animals into the game. I'd always welcome more complex solutions.

As for the mesh roof (and sides), I want to clarify that what I meant isn't the literal meaning of the word; there can be different varieties such as soft netting and an actual iron wire mesh. The term mesh here is any surface of a 3D object in a game; it can be terrain, animals, barriers etc. I've used two different meanings of the word in the previous reply on two different occasions, so I wanted to clarify what it means in this very context.

 

[Jacob1989]

I also think the new and larger exhibit size doesn't need to jump from 4x4 to 8x8, it could be 6x6 instead but that brings new set of problems of its own. Indeed patch 1.1 lets us use grids smaller than 4x4 on the x and y axes but the paths still use the same minimum grid size. Therefore a 6x6 exhibit would create indoor exhibit area problems.

I love exhibits, and I would love all kinds of variety. As I've said before on other threads, I really really hope exhibits get more love!

 

[NZFanatic]

I also think the new and larger exhibit size doesn't need to jump from 4x4 to 8x8, it could be 6x6 instead but that brings new set of problems of its own. Indeed patch 1.1 lets us use grids smaller than 4x4 on the x and y axes but the paths still use the same minimum grid size. Therefore a 6x6 exhibit would create indoor exhibit area problems.

I love exhibits, and I would love all kinds of variety. As I've said before on other threads, I really really hope exhibits get more love!

The largest size I really thought about would 4x8. I don't think 8x8 is totally necessary, even for a green anaconda.

 

[DrBurrito]

I also think the new and larger exhibit size doesn't need to jump from 4x4 to 8x8, it could be 6x6 instead but that brings new set of problems of its own. Indeed patch 1.1 lets us use grids smaller than 4x4 on the x and y axes but the paths still use the same minimum grid size. Therefore a 6x6 exhibit would create indoor exhibit area problems.

I love exhibits, and I would love all kinds of variety. As I've said before on other threads, I really really hope exhibits get more love!

That was one of the reasons why I opted with 8x8 other than the reasons discussed earlier. However NZFanatic somehow read my mind as I was going to respond with "8x4 would also be grid-friendly". To be honest we also have the 2x2 proposal which is also under grid size.

It is a matter of choice I guess, whether you want to go with perfect squares by having 2x2, 4x4, 6x6 and 8x8 or perfectly grid-friendly by having 4x4, 4x8 and 8x8, or have all kinds of variety by choosing a few from 2x2, 2x4, 4x4, 4x6, 4x8, 6x6, 6x8 and 8x8. In a perfect world I would rather have them go with the last option to give us as much variety as possible. And then update the path grid system to match the new building grid size range introduced a few patches back.

 

[NZFanatic]

In a perfect world I would rather have them go with the last option to give us as much variety as possible. And then update the path grid system to match the new building grid size range introduced a few patches back.

That's an interesting point. We can't align paths to a smaller grid, but we can to a bigger grid. Never considered that before - if you select the grid of a larger path piece (like, say, the 10m piece) your grid matches that size, yet we are unable to go smaller than 4x4 (unless the queue pieces count, but I mean, that's different anyway).

 

[DrBurrito]

That's an interesting point. We can't align paths to a smaller grid, but we can to a bigger grid. Never considered that before - if you select the grid of a larger path piece (like, say, the 10m piece) your grid matches that size, yet we are unable to go smaller than 4x4 (unless the queue pieces count, but I mean, that's different anyway).

Perhaps the addition of smaller grids was a sign for them working towards it, or it's completely irrelevant. Guess time will tell.

Having 1 meter wide paths is pretty much pointless, but having 2 meter wide ones would be a life saver.

 

[MightyRevenge]

+1 on size variants for exhibits.