Bigger On The Inside

[Maolagin]

There is no liquid hydrogen commodity. There is 'hydrogen fuel'.

The best way to put cheap hydrogen fuel into a can is to store it as a hydrocarbon (diesel) or perhaps a metal hydroxide. Even water has a higher volumetric density of hydrogen than pure liquid hydrogen.

We've had this exact discussion on the forums before. After running through various numbers, nothing achievable with near-future technology can cram 1T of hydrogen atoms into two cubic metes (and since the canisters are cylindrical and presumably have some dry bulk, the usable volume is less). The only known way to do it would be if the canisters were filled with metallic hydrogen. That (both in theory, and based on gravitational measurements of our local gas giants) has about twice the density of water. While it fits fine, metallic hydrogen only exists at pressures of millions of atmospheres, so requires the canisters to use some currently-unknown technology. It would also mean that hydrogen fuel canisters would be violently explosive if damaged.

 

[Morbad]

We've had this exact discussion on the forums before. After running through various numbers, nothing achievable with near-future technology can cram 1T of hydrogen atoms into two cubic metes

I have never intended to imply that one ton of 'hydrogen fuel' contained anywhere near one ton of hydrogen, as this is flatly impossible in the context shown in game.

The only argument I recall making before was that using liquid hydrogen in a canister would be absurd because the liquid hydrogen you can fit in a canister has less hydrogen in it than many hydrogen compounds, because of the extremely low density of LH2.

A canister has about 1.5 cubic meters of volume, does not explode with any particular force when destroyed, keeps almost indefinitely, and requires no special handling or storage precautions.

Given these parameters I would expect the most logical 'hydrogen fuel' in a can to be lithium borohydride (LiBH4), which weights very nearly 1 ton for 1.5m^3, has far and away the best combination of volumetric and gravimetric hydrogen capacity of any non-exotic material. It's also relatively easy to handle and you can release the hydrogen simply by exposing it to water; every ship in Elite likely has several metric tons of water, at a minimum, in their coolant systems.

 

[Bloodsign]

Sure, it did: the problem they're addressing (on purpose) is the great difficulty many people have when they first get into their Sidewinders and try to fly them. This is maybe a bigger hammer than the problem really needed, but the idea's a good one, as is the starter systems' being walled off.

Small ships really should matter more, especially now that it's so easy to graduate from them. But the only obvious way to make them matter more is to introduce gameplay that's only possible in a small ship.

Like silent running detection based partially on the size of a ship's radar profile.

 

[Bloodsign]

The module system as a whole is kind of silly. It worked when the game released, but I think at this point, they need to revise it.

Nothing says painted in a corner than "Free slots for everyone!"

Computer-type upgrades really shouldn't consume a slot. Nor should a fuel scoop remove tonnes of cargo capacity from my ship.

Ever notice how the fuel scoop doesn't weigh anything? To me, this says that the infrastructure of the ship inherently supports a fuel scoop, but it's an optional upgrade like a CD player in your car.

I think there should be a designated fuel scoop slot under the core internals section, which is empty by default but where a scoop can be "enabled" if you will, without affecting your cargo modules.

Long term I'm not sure if the new module slots are a good idea or not, but I'm pretty happy with it since I often use a docking computer. That extra minute while the computer docks me can be used for ship and mission management. I always resented losing a 2-slot for the docking computer in most medium/large ships, so this is like Christmas.

 

[Sea_Kerman]

My headcannon is that the fuel scoop is actually a modulation of the FSD supercruise warp field, and it doesn’t weigh much to modify the warp coils. You need the compartment empty so that a scoop door can be installed and not be obstructed by anything.

 

[Iskariot]

Wow. This might be a mistake on the part of FD, but hell, I love it anyway.

Two slots for a small ship is crazy good. I'm genuinely 'excited'.

It definitely is a mistake. A huge mistake. It changes everything.

But perhaps I need some time to get used to the idea.
After a while it might turn out to be not a mistake, but the best change possible for small ships. It might make them more viable.

 

[VR andysonofbob]

As a small ship pilot. I am super happy about those two slots.

How much more versatile will those small ships with medium hard points, like the Cobra Mk3, Vipers, Adder and DBS be now??

 

[moorison]

My headcannon is that the fuel scoop is actually a modulation of the FSD supercruise warp field, and it doesn’t weigh much to modify the warp coils. You need the compartment empty so that a scoop door can be installed and not be obstructed by anything.

Or it is just software on a storage module (like the docking computer, in this case managing the integrated fuel scooping infrastructure) that requires one of these universal connectors I was theorising before. In a sense, you are buying a software license key on a dongle.

 

[Maolagin]

I have never intended to imply that one ton of 'hydrogen fuel' contained anywhere near one ton of hydrogen, as this is flatly impossible in the context shown in game.

The only argument I recall making before was that using liquid hydrogen in a canister would be absurd because the liquid hydrogen you can fit in a canister has less hydrogen in it than many hydrogen compounds, because of the extremely low density of LH2.

A canister has about 1.5 cubic meters of volume, does not explode with any particular force when destroyed, keeps almost indefinitely, and requires no special handling or storage precautions.

Given these parameters I would expect the most logical 'hydrogen fuel' in a can to be lithium borohydride (LiBH4), which weights very nearly 1 ton for 1.5m^3, has far and away the best combination of volumetric and gravimetric hydrogen capacity of any non-exotic material. It's also relatively easy to handle and you can release the hydrogen simply by exposing it to water; every ship in Elite likely has several metric tons of water, at a minimum, in their coolant systems.

Also entirely plausible. I think the last thread we had about this, at least some of us got fixated on storing an actual ton of hydrogen, but that's by no means required given then information we have. I didn't mean to imply that's what you were claiming.

All that said... In the context of figuring out how much stuff our ships can hold, this is also important for thinking about fuel tank technology. Whatever technology the fuel tanks use is probably the same as the canisters, since a class X optional fuel tank holds the same mass of fuel as a class X cargo rack holds in cargo, and both have negligible mass when empty. (Ridiculous but consistent suggestion: the optional fuel tanks are actually just cargo holds with extra plumbing to connect the canisters to the fuel lines.) And whatever is in our fuel tanks, can be fully refuelled from the corona of a star. Solid hydride storage, while logical, is inconsistent with the behavior of fuel tanks. Either A) the hydrogen is extracted during use, leaving the metals behind, and the hydride is reformed when refuelling either from a station or a scoop - but then fuel tanks would not have zero mass when depleted, or B) the metals are also consumed and expelled from the ship (lithium at least is also a reasonable fusion fuel) - but metals are present only in trace quantities in stellar atmospheres, so would be impractical to replace by scooping.

Sure, we can write this off to the game being inconsistent about consumables - e.g. ammunition and engineering materials also apparently being massless for instance. But as far as theorycrafting goes, it's possible to eliminate at least one inconsistency if we assume that hydrogen fuel contains only hydrogen.

 

[Morbad]

Either A) the hydrogen is extracted during use, leaving the metals behind, and the hydride is reformed when refuelling either from a station or a scoop - but then fuel tanks would not have zero mass when depleted, or B) the metals are also consumed and expelled from the ship (lithium at least is also a reasonable fusion fuel) - but metals are present only in trace quantities in stellar atmospheres, so would be impractical to replace by scooping.

Another possibility is that the significant energy consumption during fuel scooping is due to whatever elements are being scooped (hydrogen and helium) being run through less productive fusion cycles on the fly in the ship's reactor with the heavier byproducts being used to reconstitute the fuel that is then stored in the tanks. In normal use the hydrogen and lithium could then be the fuel, with the boron and any other waste products being used for reaction mass.

Basically, scooping would be on the fly synthesis of the hydrogen storage medium.

 

[Maolagin]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, I haven't had time to read the whole thread, but this fella did some interesting attempts to fit the internals (before the 2 new slots).

It's pretty cool work, and perhaps relevant to this discussion:

That was an excellent video, thank you for posting it! And if we take it as a good indication of what the interior of a Sidewinder might look like, it shows that there is not much room inside that is not currently being used... and what little room there is, is nowhere near the cargo hatch, so what happens if you put Cargo Racks in both of the new slots?

I realise that Elite's ships are all much bigger than most of us realise, but it stands to reason that you cannot just keep adding internal compartments forever - and the Sidewinder is by far the smallest ship. Indeed, when the game launched, Sidewinders only had three internal compartments: two Class 2s, and one Class 1. With the launch of Horizons, an extra Class 1 was added... and now with the April update, it will get a further two Class 1s, giving it six internals - twice as many as it started off with!

I love these kinds of efforts to theorize about the internals of our ships. I can accept that a Sidewinder with only three internal slots was probably underutilized, even now it looks like two additional class 1 slots will fit, if a bit awkwardly. But check out the same assumptions applied to filling out a DBX. Even in the current configuration, it's incredibly tightly packed!

Another possibility is that the significant energy consumption during fuel scooping is due to whatever elements are being scooped (hydrogen and helium) being run through less productive fusion cycles on the fly in the ship's reactor with the heavier byproducts being used to reconstitute the fuel that is then stored in the tanks. In normal use the hydrogen and lithium could then be the fuel, with the boron and any other waste products being used for reaction mass.

Basically, scooping would be on the fly synthesis of the hydrogen storage medium.

It would certainly explain why scooping is such a toasty affair! I want to call that an obviously absurd suggestion, but considering the other ridiculous feats of synthesis our ships are equipped to handle, I can't dismiss it out of hand. But sheesh, nuclear transmutation as the convenient alternative to lugging around a hydrogen storage medium!

To quote a certain alien upon entering a certain blue box, "This is the technology of the gods!" Maybe we should just accept that they're bigger on the inside too.

 

[Old Duck]

Now that I have VR, I'm more convinced than ever that many ships in their current configuration are not compatible with "space legs". I know there's a nice video showing how things might fit in a Sidewinder, but when I stick my head through the door and see how things REALLY are in the Sidewinder, it's nothing close to how that fan fiction model portrays it. Same goes with many other ships, where things either don't line up properly or components like the landing gear block hallways, etc.

This fellow has an excellent series showing how ships are currently laid out in ED. These are quality videos, so smash that like button - he deserves it!

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzaGm6O1QVA


That's not to say that "New Era 2020" ships can't be remade to be more like the fan fiction Unreal Sidewinder, but that's exactly what Frontier will need to do in order to make some of these ships work. As for my OP, I stand by my original convictions.

 

[Morbad]

I imagine they will rework the models to the extent required. They've done so at least twice before: once to accomodate the additional ground clearance needed for SRVs for Horizons, and then again to shoehorn fighters into several extant vessels.

One thing I've noticed from working on shadows is that most ship models are in a very unfinished state, many are outright sloppy. I have a feeling they are deliberately omitting detail and a refinement pass until they have interiors they've settled on.

 

[Old Duck]

I imagine they will rework the models to the extent required. They've done so at least twice before: once to accomodate the additional ground clearance needed for SRVs for Horizons, and then again to shoehorn fighters into several extant vessels.

I'm of the opinion that SRVs should have been ship-specific instead of forced into all ships. A Hauler having an SRV makes sense, but a Sidewinder? I suspect that perhaps ships were more properly thought out when first introduced, but in order to make SRVs work in all ships, Frontier just said "screw it!" when they released Horizons. This is why we now have landing gear popping up through the cockpit floor of the Viper, etc. Personally, I think it would have made the game MORE interesting if we were forced to buy special ships to use an SRV on planets, similar to how we need certain ships for SLFs. I can't squeeze an ATV into my SUV - I need to buy a large pickup truck or RV to do that.

One thing I've noticed from working on shadows is that most ship models are in a very unfinished state, many are outright sloppy. I have a feeling they are deliberately omitting detail and a refinement pass until they have interiors they've settled on.

Yep, I've noticed this in VR. Lots of sloppy work in some ships. Gaps, misaligned components, overlapping components, lazy copy-n-paste of senseless panels, etc. VR has caused me to start to dislike certain ships that I once enjoyed, because now I can see all the flaws in them. I used to give higher praise to the modeling team, but I've seen some amateur and rushed stuff that makes me reconsider my initial appraisal.

 

[Morbad]

Sidewinder is a killer multi-purpose exploration vessel with that SRV and I rather like that it's possible to fit them on any ship. Makes sense too, since the thing folds up specifically to fit in a cargo hatch, which every ship needs anyway.

However, I think screwing with the landing gear was a mistake. Ships shouldn't even need to land to deploy the SRV...they could do this while hovering...and ground clearance should never have been an issue.

As for sloppy models...I've seen oddities with everything, but the Mamba took it to a whole new level:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhEH3pQVxno

 

[Old Duck]

Sidewinder is a killer multi-purpose exploration vessel with that SRV and I rather like that it's possible to fit them on any ship. Makes sense too, since the thing folds up specifically to fit in a cargo hatch, which every ship needs anyway.

However, I think screwing with the landing gear was a mistake. Ships shouldn't even need to land to deploy the SRV...they could do this while hovering...and ground clearance should never have been an issue.

While slightly off-topic, I wish we had a smaller alternative to the SRV, like an EVA suit with a jetpack. That would greatly reduce the need for SRV in many situations, at least for me. Being able to land on a planet and get out of my Sidewinder is a no-brainer to me too, but I think the need for the SRV to do this is overkill.

But it doesn't matter - I highly doubt Frontier will remove SRVs from smaller ships. I just want to know where that SRV goes when I'm scooping up cargo in my Sidewinder. I guarantee it's not "off to the side" like the Unreal video portrays. The SRV "garage" takes up the vast majority of the ship!

 

[Maolagin]

While slightly off-topic, I wish we had a smaller alternative to the SRV, like an EVA suit with a jetpack. That would greatly reduce the need for SRV in many situations, at least for me. Being able to land on a planet and get out of my Sidewinder is a no-brainer to me too, but I think the need for the SRV to do this is overkill.

But it doesn't matter - I highly doubt Frontier will remove SRVs from smaller ships. I just want to know where that SRV goes when I'm scooping up cargo in my Sidewinder. I guarantee it's not "off to the side" like the Unreal video portrays. The SRV "garage" takes up the vast majority of the ship!

I recall DB specifically saying that they decided to add the SRV first instead of an EVA mode because stuff in ED is big and it would be tedious to move around at walking speed, vs a buggy doing 100+ km/h. Plus, presumably, they already did the work to render planetary surfaces for Horizons, while ship interiors remains firmly "on the roadmap".

But why do you say the SRV can't be stowed away in the size 2 internal slot in a Sidey? I think the various "putting boxes into ship wireframes" exercises have shown that there is, in fact, a good amount of room in even the tiny ships. The more concerning issue with the Sidewinder is that the cargo bay is hard against the back of the ship, so there's no possibility for an airlock inside the rear access door - that door has to open straight into the cargo scoop. Similarly, a sensible interior for the Keelback is going to be tricky with so much of its internal volume taken up by the fighter bay. I don't know where the main engines are supposed to be, and the subtarget locations of some core internals seem to be inside the volume of the fighter hanger.

 

[Old Duck]

But why do you say the SRV can't be stowed away in the size 2 internal slot in a Sidey?

Because now that I have VR I can see for myself there is no physical room for it. In fact, the SRV hanger clips through the floor of the Sidewinder (very evident in VR), showing that the SRV doesn't even properly fit in its current location, let alone a side bay.

 

[Maolagin]

Because now that I have VR I can see for myself there is no physical room for it. In fact, the SRV hanger clips through the floor of the Sidewinder (very evident in VR), showing that the SRV doesn't even properly fit in its current location, let alone a side bay.

Oh, that's hilarious. Which floor do you mean? Does the cockpit extend far enough back that the top of the cargo/hanger structure clips through the cockpit floor, or is this something you are seeing by clipping yourself through the back wall? Looking at the external blueprints I can certainly imagine it's the former, but then I'm puzzled how it's clipping in a way that's visible in VR but not in the vanity cameras.

BTW I totally agree that many ships would need significant design changes before ship interiors could be fully implemented. It was rather concerning watching the livestream about the design of the Phantom, that the question of internal layout never seems to have been considered beyond fitting the various models (cargo scoop, hardpoints, etc) fully inside the ship.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Is it my imagination, or will some ships literally be "bigger on the inside" with the next update that gives us two additional module slots in small ships? If nothing else, this proves my theory that modules in ED are nothing but numerical attributes, not actual volumetric space inside our ships that we'll be able to one day walk around in and see. Think about it, where does one find this extra room (the equivalent of 4 tons of cargo) inside a Sidewinder or an Eagle?

Well at least my Livery is already accurate for the new update

View attachment 127348

Your analysis is correct.
I'm very curious to see how ship interiors will be handled by FDEV. I see no problems in medium ships, but the small ones will need some trick/magic.
For info the Sidewinder was already too small, in fact the hangar bay is protruding from the belly and clipping through the cockpit.