Proposal Discussion Binaural HRTF implemented in the Cobra engine

I bow to the passion people can put in these projects.
Much respect.

Plus... Shigawire and Dejay: I bow to you too for making me discover this new world.

Thank you so much.

Only too glad to have shared something so wonderful with my friends.
All the Elite D community are my friends.

Oh my Higgs-Boson.. saying "Elite D" sounds like a really lame hip hop band.
Will it read better if I write ELITE IV? Am I still allowed to call it that? :p
 
Are these like binaural beats that are supposed to make you zone out? I'll take a side order of audio weed while I fly around in my ship for sure.
 
exioce, what are you talking about?

Binaural ASMR is the only relaxing audio weed I know of.. and it's not music or rhythm.

but what we're talking about is what I mention in the OP.
Read the OP, check my example youtube clips.
Check Dejay's youtube clips in his post.
 
reminds me of the good old days of counter strike v1 to 1.6..... when I had some Zalman surround sound headphones, 7.1 channels..


They rocked.

wonder if I could still get them :eek:
 
reminds me of the good old days of counter strike v1 to 1.6..... when I had some Zalman surround sound headphones, 7.1 channels..
They rocked.
wonder if I could still get them :eek:

The point is you don't need surround sound headphones! :) Just buy good stereo headphones depending on your budget (e.g. Superlux HD-668 B for 30€).
Any game developer can use OpenAL and not only have 7.1 surround sound, but something like "100 channel" surround sound. That includes "up" and "down" audio channels. It's free and easy to use. Virtual surround headphones based on 7.1 or 5.1 are a bad solution.

Of course for FPS games up and down are not that important, and you are dependent on developers actually using a binaural sound engine :rolleyes:
 
Hey everyone, I've got a reply here for you from Daniel Murray, Audio Group
Programmer.

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Hi there, I'd like to address a few of the points that have been raised in this thread. Firstly can I say how awesome it is to see backers passionately discussing audio (especially technical implementation details such as sound source localisation).

| Binaural HRTF implemented in the Cobra engine

For Elite the majority of our audio pipeline is supplied by a middleware package called Wwise (https://www.audiokinetic.com/). Wwise is a fantastic tool and an important part of how we work on Elite. For things like sound localisation we are dependent on the functionality offered by Wwise. Fortunately Wwise does expose most of the capabilities offered by modern audio apis including binaural head related transfer function spatialisation. On Windows Wwise's lower level audio engine is partially implemented using Microsoft's DirectX component "DirectSound". DirectSound, like Open-AL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenAL (typically used on *nix/GNU systems where PortAudio http://www.portaudio.com/ isn't sufficient) or even CoreAudio (Apple's system level audio api which uses OpenAL for 3D positioning), offers some degree of three dimensional localisation of sound (typically referred to as binaural lateralisation as the quality of the effect achieved by convolution with head related transfer functions tends to be most prominent on the listener's horizontal plane). You can see an overview of DirectSound's features here http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee418868%28v=vs.85%29.aspx and details about DirectSound 3D listeners here http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee416766%28v=vs.85%29.aspx.

| That means you could "calibrate" it to work for your own head shape, cranium volume, and ear shape by telling a program which direction you hear the sound in different iterations.

The idea of players customising the lower level operation of the audio pipeline to suit their personalised hearing equipment is very appealing. However until this functionality is properly supported by the various pieces of tech that power Wwise on every platform that they support it is unlikely that we will see this made available to mainstream gamers - let's hope so though!

| I really hope and pray that FD went with OpenAL and NOT Fmod for ED

I hope the above makes this clear but just in case; OpenAl is an application programming interface for reading and writing sound buffers that are potentially binaurally localised, fMod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMOD (like Wwise) is an entire audio tool chain for game development that implements all of the functionality (and much, much more) offered by OpenAL and DirectSound (to name a couple) and that's ok because the scope of the projects are not really related (and like I mentioned above, in some cases you may even be listening to OpenAL when not playing on Windows).

All this being said the quality of the effect this process has is known to be hit-and-miss, the perceptual accuracy of the effect varies person to person (and audio engine to audio engine). That people are discussing "how great it would be to have" and "the possibility of having something" we technically already have speaks volumes about the state of this technology.

I hope this has been a helpful read it certainly sparked some interesting conversations and experimentation in the office today!

The Audio Team
 
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Thanks Mark and Daniel Murray for the feedback! :)

This "ASTOUNDSOUND RTI" sounds really interesting.

ASTOUNDSOUND RTI
Creates a convincing 360-degree experience, including elevation
The filter model used goes beyond traditional Head-Related Transfer Functions (HRTFs)
Based on how the brain perceives sounds, versus HRTFs which are based on the anatomy of the ear and skull
Requires only a 2-channel output

I guess the brain is listening too? ;)
 
I hope this has been a helpful read it certainly sparked some interesting conversations and experimentation in the office today!

The Audio Team

Thanks for responding.. Hah! Well, if that was the result of my little thread, then I can happily claim "mission accomplished," because that's all I really wanted. Raising awareness not just among the people in Frontier, but also to other fans.

Whatever you do, I believe your sound work is already groundbreaking on many levels. And I've never tried Elite Dangerous, only viewed videos on youtube (I'm a Kickstarter backer, and pre-ordered Premium Beta). And even in those videos, I can tell how awesome the audio is. So many different levels of awesome. The soundscape you project in the game is so broad and deep. Wwise may be a nice tool - but it's not the tool, it's the artist. Besides, I hate Wwise because the audio in Rome 2 Total War can't be modded because of it. :p

You yourselves may already have noticed how many people have reacted so excitedly to the audio in Elite Dangerous. I think you already know you are working on something special right now. Not just the game, but your part in it being executed so darn good. The only way to top it off would be to implement support for HRTF. If not now, maybe some years into the future.

Dejay, Astoundsound does all that without HRTFs? That is insane.. is that a filter that can plug in to any API or pipeline?

Ehhhhh... WOW
AstoundSound is... wow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKnhcsRTNME
 
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Dejay, Astoundsound does all that without HRTFs? That is insane.. is that a filter that can plug in to any API or pipeline?

AstoundSound is a plugin from Genaudio that you can license for WWise separately. I hope FD did! :)

Genaudio says they go "beyond" HRTF and use how the brain perceives audio. They do use standard HRTF since you simply need some variant of changing the frequency, attenuation and phase response from a certain direction.
I'm not sure what they mean by that, because HRTF is by definition interpreted by the brain. It's possible that they add early reflections, reverb and occlusion, so for example if you have a wall to your back and hear something from your front, you interpret the early echo from wall in the back as a clue to know the sound came from the front. But that's just speculation I haven't been able to find the complete text of their patent (which sounds very general) or any info.

In any case, they don't seem to support choosing or configuration an individual HRTF profile. But I'm not sure if individualized HRTF are even the way to go, or if adapting yourself to an "idealized" HRTF that exaggerates the clues from spacialization isn't actually better. Even with your own ears you get front/back confusion and with your individual HRTF you only have like precision of about 22 degree. Someone with big ears might be able to locate sounds more precise, and if you can borrow big ears why wouldn't you? ;)

I'm a bit miffed at genaudio because the patented their algorithm, and software should never be patented. Decades people have been research HRTF and they build upon that, and in the worse case they will make licensing so expensive that they hurt progress in the field of 3D audio. As a programmer I hate patents.
 
I'm a bit miffed at genaudio because the patented their algorithm, and software should never be patented. Decades people have been research HRTF and they build upon that, and in the worse case they will make licensing so expensive that they hurt progress in the field of 3D audio. As a programmer I hate patents.

Hehe. I understand where you're coming from. You're coming from the Richard M. Stallman school of GNU-thought.

But at the same time, I can understand how someone who have worked hard on something, and come up with something really clever... can get rich on that. If the inventors had simply made it open and free, it would be up for grabs for any big company, and the inventors behind the tech would not get compensated for the amount of intelligence and effort they put into it. Too many times, clever developers have been tricked by bigger corporations, who had made a fortune on their technologies. It is really only in the best interests of the person who invents and pioneers something, that the Patent Trade practices in place are sufficient to safeguard that person's interests.

Well, I do hope Frontier Developments think about using GSound for WWise, as it is very impressive. :)
 
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This has been around for ages.
I first heard about it as holophonics sometime in the late 80s.
Wikipedia: Holophonics
I think I have a clip hanging around here somewhere. I'll try and find it.
.
.
.
Ah. Here we go. I uploaded it to a folder:
http://www.davethedrummer.com/Music/Holophonics/01Holophonics.mp3
It's not showy or flashy but it is amazingly effective. Especially the end part where you're outdoors and the flies are buzzing around. The first time I head this I pulled the headphones off it was so real.
Make sure you use headphones.
It's 18 mins long but only 30 megs or so. Listen to it all. It's amazing. Closing your eyes only enhances the effect.
:cool:
 
But at the same time, I can understand how someone who have worked hard on something, and come up with something really clever... can get rich on that. If the inventors had simply made it open and free, it would be up for grabs for any big company, and the inventors behind the tech would not get compensated for the amount of intelligence and effort they put into it. Too many times, clever developers have been tricked by bigger corporations, who had made a fortune on their technologies.
That's what copyright is for.
Copyright your code.
If someone comes up with another way of doing it good for them. Same with patents.
The problem is that patent law is so loosely interpreted nowadays. It has even encompassed swipe gestures on a touch screen phone.
Can you believe that ?
Last I heard was that Apple have a patent on the swipe to unlock gesture across the bottom of the screen.

Insanity.
The sooner the system breaks the better, then we can replace it with something that actually works the way patents used to.
 
That's what copyright is for.
Copyright your code.
If someone comes up with another way of doing it good for them. Same with patents.
The problem is that patent law is so loosely interpreted nowadays. It has even encompassed swipe gestures on a touch screen phone.
Can you believe that ?
Last I heard was that Apple have a patent on the swipe to unlock gesture across the bottom of the screen.

Insanity.
The sooner the system breaks the better, then we can replace it with something that actually works the way patents used to.

Agreed with that. Also frightening how huge pharma corporations like Pfizer attempt to patent some human genome sequences, and the food corporation Monsanto patenting genes for food, and especially the "Terminator" crops that infertilize neighboring farmers' regular crops.
 
This has been around for ages.
I first heard about it as holophonics sometime in the late 80s.

Thanks for the links! Gonna listen to it later :)


You're coming from the Richard M. Stallman school of GNU-thought

Hehe actually I dislike GNU GPL as well :p Because it hinders adoption of "free" software into commercial products. I do like LGPL though. I hate everything that hinders progress in order to make profits for the greedy. And I'd guess than less of 1% of revenues for patents land in the hands of the original inventors.

As a programmer, you basically break bigger problems down into small ones constantly invent new solutions to puzzles. Software patents are horrible for programmers, it's as if you where told not to use certain words because they have been bought and reserved. But you don't even know which words.
 
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