Blocking in Elite Dangerous

[jasonbarron]

Genuinely curious here - what are these players continuously engineering? It isn't like there are new weapons and modules being introduced on a daily basis so why all the engineering requirements? Surely once they have settled on their perfect build for their ideal meta murder machine there would be very little to add to it.

Yes, the initial engineering build would be a PITA, but no more than someone making the ultimate exploration ship by shaving every KG off their ship.

Not sure if it still works this way, but there's a lot of engineering going on with alt ships of every type and configuration you can imagine. There's bound to be a player's preferred ride, but most PvPers have not only scads of ships that need to be prepped for various scenarios, but every variation possible in terms of armor, boosters, weapons and special effects. Also, keep in mind that a few rolls isn't enough, things have to be pretty much maxed out or very darn close to it. It boils down to a ton of mat scavenging.

Once competition becomes a thing, it's Katy bar the door. I know plenty of PvE players found my earlier remarks arrogant, but as you yourself pointed out, they only have to consider one or possibly two ships and mildly engineer them, while the PvPer literally never stops. The basis for my comparison was that PvPers have to engage the simulation MUCH more fully than any other style that doesn't include competition. That's not arrogance, that's fact.

 

[Morbad]

Genuinely curious here - what are these players continuously engineering? It isn't like there are new weapons and modules being introduced on a daily basis so why all the engineering requirements? Surely once they have settled on their perfect build for their ideal meta murder machine there would be very little to add to it.

Yes, the initial engineering build would be a PITA, but no more than someone making the ultimate exploration ship by shaving every KG off their ship.

There is no universal perfect build and there is a constant low-level arms race between evolving and competing 'metas', even when Frontier isn't patching things until they break. It's also important to have broad experience with as many permutations as possible...stats only go so far, first hand experience is important.

At some point the rate at which one Engineers stuff certainly slows down, but it never really ends if you expect to keep up with other players, or even if one just enjoys tinkering.

 

[Old Duck]

II watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.

I just saw these, too. Basically the ED equivalent of this ship (below). A yellow Conda with all fixed beams (white) and heat sinks. Maximum Firepower. It was pretty spectacular to watch - really lit up the sky!

Yes, I was in Open (missed Rootstat, however), fighting the good fight.

 

[M00ka]

Not sure if it still works this way, but there's a lot of engineering going on with alt ships of every type and configuration you can imagine. There's bound to be a player's preferred ride, but most PvPers have not only scads of ships that need to be prepped for various scenarios, but every variation possible in terms of armor, boosters, weapons and special effects. Also, keep in mind that a few rolls isn't enough, things have to be pretty much maxed out or very darn close to it. It boils down to a ton of mat scavenging.

Once competition becomes a thing, it's Katy bar the door. I know plenty of PvE players found my earlier remarks arrogant, but as you yourself pointed out, they only have to consider one or possibly two ships and mildly engineer them, while the PvPer literally never stops. The basis for my comparison was that PvPers have to engage the simulation MUCH more fully than any other style that doesn't include competition. That's not arrogance, that's fact.

There is no universal perfect build and there is a constant low-level arms race between evolving and competing 'metas', even when Frontier isn't patching things until they break. It's also important to have broad experience with as many permutations as possible...stats only go so far, first hand experience is important.

At some point the rate at which one Engineers stuff certainly slows down, but it never really ends if you expect to keep up with other players, or even if one just enjoys tinkering.

Thanks to both of you for replying without being snarky. But I humbly disagree with you, there is a limit to Engineering and it sounds like the PvP community is caught up in a perpetual self-inflicted race of 'not missing out'. If they are continually engineering to try to beat or at least compete against some meta build that a Commander posted on a forum or bragged about in chat they would be far better off just improving their own flying skills and not relying on engineering to win. They already have a fully engineered ship that was their personal meta yesterday, so why is it suddenly inferior today just because Commander 'X' says their build is superior.

As for only the PvP community knows how to Engineer is a fallacy as well. All my ships are at least 75% engineered, with at least 5 fully engineered (that is every module that can be engineered is engineered to the highest level I can obtain). I did it for my own amusement (definitely not entertainment lol) and to ensure I get the best possible result from my ships. It might be to increase jump range, ensure my trade ships can defend themselves against attack, increase speed, increase agility, there are many reasons and not one of the is PvP related. Oh and I have never engaged in PvP and have zero incentive to do so.

Also Jason's comment ".. keep in mind that a few rolls isn't enough, things have to be pretty much maxed out or very darn close to it. It boils down to a ton of mat scavenging." I think you may be referring to Engineering Version 1 with the God Rolls. Under the current system no single module requires more than (by my calculations) 35 rolls from not engineered to fully 100% G5. This is based on 3 rolls for G1, 5 for G2, 7 for G3, 9 for G4 and 11 for G5. Experience has taught me that I rarely need that many, especially with an engineer that I have already established a relations ship with.

I know both of you are proud of your PvP skills, good for you but please remember PvP is an extremely small aspect of this game performed by a small minority. So please recognise why others don't want to play their game your way and resent the fact that they are being told to do so.

 

[Morbad]

If they are continually engineering to try to beat or at least compete against some meta build that a Commander posted on a forum or bragged about in chat

They aren't.

why is it suddenly inferior today just because Commander 'X' says their build is superior.

It generally has nothing to do with what anyone says, it has to do with observed trends in encounters that are experienced first hand.

No one build can be universally applicable to all combat situations, and every loadout has a counter. There are broad tendencies, and preferences evolve for reasons, but they do not exist in a vacuum. Ignoring or failing to adapt to changing trends can leave one with a less than competitive setup for the conditions that actually exist.

I have a few 'general purpose' combat vessels that often do quite well against a wide variety of CMDR opponents...until I meet my equal or better in skill, who has a vessel that is particularly well suited to countering my own...and people are quite willing to refit their vesels, or build a whole armada of them, so that they always have the right tool for the right job within reach.

Different roles also require different tools. My best duelist setups aren't particularly good in wing engagements and vice versa.

Additionally, the fact the Frontier is constantly changing things, often inadvertently, often requires major loadout overhauls. Hell, just as I was getting to the point where my last shieldless FAS loadout, and my ability to pilot it, were becoming viable, Frontier introduced a module pane bug and a half- fixed for it that have resulted in my mothballing the ship...it's viability against most opponents depends heavily on my ability to repair MRPs during combat and resetting the position of the module list every time I initiate a repair is enough to take many encounters from close victories to not so close defeats. Far larger shake ups have happened multiple times in the past.

As for only the PvP community knows how to Engineer is a fallacy as well. All my ships are at least 75% engineered, with at least 5 fully engineered (that is every module that can be engineered is engineered to the highest level I can obtain). I did it for my own amusement (definitely not entertainment lol) and to ensure I get the best possible result from my ships.

I'm pretty middle of the pack in amount of Engineering done amongst long time veteran PvPers and my CMDR has about ten-thousand rolls total, almost six-thousand of them G5. I cannot think of a mod I have not used, nor one I haven't tried in combat against other CMDRs at some point, where applicable.

I have never engaged in PvP and have zero incentive to do so.

Probably why you don't seem to understand combat dynamics or equipment trends when it comes to CMDRs.

Also Jason's comment ".. keep in mind that a few rolls isn't enough, things have to be pretty much maxed out or very darn close to it. It boils down to a ton of mat scavenging." I think you may be referring to Engineering Version 1 with the God Rolls. Under the current system no single module requires more than (by my calculations) 35 rolls from not engineered to fully 100% G5. This is based on 3 rolls for G1, 5 for G2, 7 for G3, 9 for G4 and 11 for G5. Experience has taught me that I rarely need that many, especially with an engineer that I have already established a relations ship with.

I didn't read Jason's comment and I do think he's played in a while.

Regardless, even under the new system, it's an average of about seven or eight G5 rolls to max-out something, and since no one set of equipment constitutes a universal tool, many sets are usually required.

please recognise why others don't want to play their game your way and resent the fact that they are being told to do so.

I don't tell anyone how to play their game. I just share how I play mine and point out that in a persistent multiplayer title where everyone contributes to the same background mechanisms, no one's game is wholly separate from anyone else's.

 

[Darty]

Hitting the block button should delete your account.

 

[jasonbarron]

Also Jason's comment ".. keep in mind that a few rolls isn't enough, things have to be pretty much maxed out or very darn close to it. It boils down to a ton of mat scavenging." I think you may be referring to Engineering Version 1 with the God Rolls. Under the current system no single module requires more than (by my calculations) 35 rolls from not engineered to fully 100% G5. This is based on 3 rolls for G1, 5 for G2, 7 for G3, 9 for G4 and 11 for G5. Experience has taught me that I rarely need that many, especially with an engineer that I have already established a relations ship with.

Sure, I'm aware of the new and improved system, but my point takes into account both the fact that PvPers don't settle for anything less than nearly maxed out rolls...er, "cranks" if you prefer, as well as the fact that we've been doing this since it was rolls where you needed to roll hundreds if not thousands of times to get the almighty secondary special. The context being the experience level and expertise of the player style in question.

And don't expect Morbad to even know I'm in the same thread with him; I'm one of the few forum posters with the skill to get him to actually block me

 

[Slange Lands]

No, there's no doubt that PvPer's have to be excellent at PvE even if the only reason they do it is because they have to to fulfill their long term PvP goals; simply put, there is no arena of play that PvPers aren't more proficient at than non-PvPers.

Edit: dammit, now I'm all choked up thinking of all my awesomely skilled brothers and sisters of the gun!

Umm... well, I love PvP but I kinda suck at PvE.
1. I am psychologically unfit for exploring, the 5000ly Palin unlock had me nearly quit the game. That was in 2017; I am still recovering.
2. I have not nor will learn to use the FSS.
3. I have not nor will learn to deep core mine.
4. I couldn't tell you the difference between a barnacle, a biotherm or a brainy tree.
5. I have yet to solo a Basilisk.
6. Probing planets sounds gross.
7. Codex? Hmmmm... is there a tl;dr?

Not all PvPers are alike:

Sure, I love blowing up ships, but what I love most about PvP is that it has helped me desensitize to outcome in game. I have gotten blown up and cussed at so many times that I just don't care anymore. Liberating. It's all about goofing off and improving my piloting skills now.

Also, I sure as heck avoid engineering if possible. I'd rather eat a rebuy than grind for mats. I have the utmost respect for Elite CQC pilots and their pip management and FA off maneuvering. And they fly unengineered.

Elite Dangerous PvP should not dissolve into a meritocracy. It's a playground for space nerds from all over the world to have fun with each other.

o7

 

[Captain Willard]

Hitting the block button should delete your account.

Ramming people at stations should delete your account.

 

[Gavin786]

It has become common for certain low-skill PvP groups to use the block feature to give themselves a number advantage in wing fights... this became apparent on Friday during an outlaws vs lawfuls PvP event in open at the CG. The lawfuls were consistently dropping 12 players into instances without problems, while the outlaws couldn't get more than a single wing into the fights. Apparently some players on the lawful side were selectively blocking certain members of the outlaw side to stop them dropping in to give themselves an advantage... this caused the whole event to fall apart and players started logging off to play/stream other games.

Instance blocking is one of the most ill-conceived ideas to ever be implemented in Elite, and there's some serious competition there. It should be restricted to comms (obviously).

I didnt really realise how big a problem blocking is in this game until I read this post, now I am quite shocked.

SOME COMMENTS ON LAWFUL PLAYERS...

Quite a few parts of this, least important of which, talking about lawful PvP groups,
1. When Adles Armada was still a thing, we had all the unlawful guys on our friends list and zero blocks. Just so we could easily instance in. Type of behaviour you are describing(ghosting, healies etc) would get you warned and kicked out, we just didnt do that full stop, and most of the other groups we played with had similar ethos. Less than a year things must have changed a lot. Could well be the wires are crossed somewhere and if you have a word with leaders of these lawful PvP groups they will tell their members to get rid of the blocks and put you guys on friends list so you can easily instance in, and likely as not give warning to their members esp if you have that on video. IF you try this(talking) and get a negative response I would for sure like to hear about it. The only PG that was a member of Citadel that did stuff like that was a certain imperial faction with the number 13 in its name(though I wont name names). And they were widely looked down upon for this kind of behaviour. Nobody else did it.

2. Any lawful player who truly(and not just rp) has a problem with unlawfuls has a real lack of understanding of symbiosis, without the unlawfuls there would be no lawfuls, they are 100% essential to game and ecology even/especially if you are a lawful player!

That does not really matter though, it is not the big problem.

THE BIG PROBLEM

The big problem is the blocking system that allows things like this to happen at all. I did not realise it was so bad. I saw in a recent update "edge cases of blocking where players could still.. have been removed", something like that, the blocking system was recently changed to make it stronger is the message

OPEN PLAY should be OPEN PLAY. Blocking system is being exploited by players to avoid/damage legitimate PvP and should be stopped.

Better yet, if a player in a block list is going to be instanced with you, or you with him, you drop to a solo instance. That is the right way to do block lists. Not fair to exclude someone from an instance because he is in your block list, what is happening now, it is stopping blocked players from entering instances just because someone has a block on them and it is not right.

Way it should be, if blocks really need to happen: BLOCKED PLAYER INSTANCES in -> You get a 15 second timer log you out and into solo instance(UNLESS YOU ARE UNDER FIRE, then no CLOGS should be allowed EVER!!!). You can choose to go to solo after the 15 seconds or stay in instance with blocked player. Your choice. Maybe even have that 15s grace where you cant see each other.

Blocking should be set up to NEVER PUNISH THE BLOCKED PLAYER.

Right now it is doing that by excluding them from instances and it is not right one player has that power over another.

BLOCKING SHOULD ONLY AFFECT THE BLOCKER'S GAME, NOT THE ONE WHO IS BLOCKED!!!

If you are going to be instanced with a blocked player, you get the choice to go to solo or be instanced with them. That is how it should be. Not right to punish a person because they are on a block list or stop them instancing into their wing with their friends or what not, which is certainly happening now.

We (open play community) really need to start standing together more than we do. Frontier listen to the people on these forums and they are dragging the game more and more to Elite: Carebear rather than Elite: Dangerous, and strengthening the blocking has had a really bad effect so far. We need to come together somehow and have a strong, unified voice on the issues that matter to us, and I think we can all agree that blocking being used to stop legitimate PvP is not right.

LET US FIND SOME WAY TO STAND TOGETHER AND OPPOSE THESE CAREBEAR VOICES THAT FRONTIER LISTEN TO.

Else we will one day no longer have a game at all, everyone will be flying shieldless condas with no hull, and no fear of interdiction by a player, no reason to improve, the game will just be full of clueless fat seals. That is the future unless we put a stop to it. Elite: Dangerous should be dangerous. Full stop.

And as far as station ramming goes, I hear this again and again. Is it REALLY a problem? I hardly ever experience this and when I do(those very rare times) my ship spins on its axis and does not move forward(breaking speed limit for his friend to suicide me)? WHY you might ask? Because I fly and land FA-off(energy of the ram spins my ship and does not alter its vector, FA-on energy of ram speeds ship up). Same advice again and again: Git Gud, that is the real answer to these problem. I have NEVER banned anyone nor do I intend to.

And if something should be banned its banning itself.

Signing off,

CMDR Gavin786

 

[Stigbob]

And I'm acutely aware that the behavior of even those who are out of sight has a profound impact on my game.

In that they can alter the BGS.

The least effective way of countering that is PVP so their mode/activity is irrelevant as the counter is knowing how to play the BGS.

Hitting the block button should delete your account.

From the perspective of the blocked it does.

 

[Tikanderoga]

OPEN PLAY should be OPEN PLAY. Blocking system is being exploited by players to avoid/damage legitimate PvP and should be stopped.

Not everyone enjoys PvP. For various reasons.
If PvP could be optional, many more would fly in Open for others to interact with.
But because of people not enjoying PvP (myself included), we have groups like Mobius... and blocking.
I would love to fly Open and interact with others - But i don't do PvP. So Solo mode it is for me.

Just because you might be flying a Murderlance and oneshot anything and everyone because you can doesn't mean everyone has to cater to your playstyle.

 

[Stigbob]

@Old Duck - just saw you at the CG

You should have ganked him and posted a video eliminating the anti-PVP mod bias myth .

Its a sacrifice I'm prepared for @Old Duck to make.

 

[M00ka]

Not everyone enjoys PvP. For various reasons.
If PvP could be optional, many more would fly in Open for others to interact with.
But because of people not enjoying PvP (myself included), we have groups like Mobius... and blocking.
I would love to fly Open and interact with others - But i don't do PvP. So Solo mode it is for me.

Just because you might be flying a Murderlance and oneshot anything and everyone because you can doesn't mean everyone has to cater to your playstyle.

Well said and exactly the same reason why I no longer play in Open. I just refuse to be someone else's game content when there is zero reason to do so. I don't take part of PowerPlay, I don't participate in CGs. Hell I don't even favour a particular superpower or faction. I am an Independent Pilot, I will work with any faction (i.e. take their missions) if they pay well and the missions aren't illegal (personal preference as part of my role playing). Yet some here say that if I decide to fly in Open I have to accept their rules and play to their playing style. Why can't they play to mine!

 

[Stigbob]

I didnt really realise how big a problem blocking is in this game until I read this post, now I am quite shocked.

SOME COMMENTS ON LAWFUL PLAYERS...

Quite a few parts of this, least important of which, talking about lawful PvP groups,
1. When Adles Armada was still a thing, we had all the unlawful guys on our friends list and zero blocks. Just so we could easily instance in. Type of behaviour you are describing(ghosting, healies etc) would get you warned and kicked out, we just didnt do that full stop, and most of the other groups we played with had similar ethos. Less than a year things must have changed a lot. Could well be the wires are crossed somewhere and if you have a word with leaders of these lawful PvP groups they will tell their members to get rid of the blocks and put you guys on friends list so you can easily instance in, and likely as not give warning to their members esp if you have that on video. IF you try this(talking) and get a negative response I would for sure like to hear about it. The only PG that was a member of Citadel that did stuff like that was a certain imperial faction with the number 13 in its name(though I wont name names). And they were widely looked down upon for this kind of behaviour. Nobody else did it.

2. Any lawful player who truly(and not just rp) has a problem with unlawfuls has a real lack of understanding of symbiosis, without the unlawfuls there would be no lawfuls, they are 100% essential to game and ecology even/especially if you are a lawful player!

That does not really matter though, it is not the big problem.

THE BIG PROBLEM

The big problem is the blocking system that allows things like this to happen at all. I did not realise it was so bad. I saw in a recent update "edge cases of blocking where players could still.. have been removed", something like that, the blocking system was recently changed to make it stronger is the message

OPEN PLAY should be OPEN PLAY. Blocking system is being exploited by players to avoid/damage legitimate PvP and should be stopped.

Better yet, if a player in a block list is going to be instanced with you, or you with him, you drop to a solo instance. That is the right way to do block lists. Not fair to exclude someone from an instance because he is in your block list, what is happening now, it is stopping blocked players from entering instances just because someone has a block on them and it is not right.

Way it should be, if blocks really need to happen: BLOCKED PLAYER INSTANCES in -> You get a 15 second timer log you out and into solo instance(UNLESS YOU ARE UNDER FIRE, then no CLOGS should be allowed EVER!!!). You can choose to go to solo after the 15 seconds or stay in instance with blocked player. Your choice. Maybe even have that 15s grace where you cant see each other.

Blocking should be set up to NEVER PUNISH THE BLOCKED PLAYER.

Right now it is doing that by excluding them from instances and it is not right one player has that power over another.

BLOCKING SHOULD ONLY AFFECT THE BLOCKER'S GAME, NOT THE ONE WHO IS BLOCKED!!!

If you are going to be instanced with a blocked player, you get the choice to go to solo or be instanced with them. That is how it should be. Not right to punish a person because they are on a block list or stop them instancing into their wing with their friends or what not, which is certainly happening now.

We (open play community) really need to start standing together more than we do. Frontier listen to the people on these forums and they are dragging the game more and more to Elite: Carebear rather than Elite: Dangerous, and strengthening the blocking has had a really bad effect so far. We need to come together somehow and have a strong, unified voice on the issues that matter to us, and I think we can all agree that blocking being used to stop legitimate PvP is not right.

LET US FIND SOME WAY TO STAND TOGETHER AND OPPOSE THESE CAREBEAR VOICES THAT FRONTIER LISTEN TO.

Else we will one day no longer have a game at all, everyone will be flying shieldless condas with no hull, and no fear of interdiction by a player, no reason to improve, the game will just be full of clueless fat seals. That is the future unless we put a stop to it. Elite: Dangerous should be dangerous. Full stop.

And as far as station ramming goes, I hear this again and again. Is it REALLY a problem? I hardly ever experience this and when I do(those very rare times) my ship spins on its axis and does not move forward(breaking speed limit for his friend to suicide me)? WHY you might ask? Because I fly and land FA-off(energy of the ram spins my ship and does not alter its vector, FA-on energy of ram speeds ship up). Same advice again and again: Git Gud, that is the real answer to these problem. I have NEVER banned anyone nor do I intend to.

And if something should be banned its banning itself.

Signing off,

CMDR Gavin786

The sort of player who would exploit the block function is just a cheat and would probably clog on you anyway, so you are not missing out on anything fun.

Station ramming is boring. It was fun the first time dodging them and sending 'ole' in comms.

That was 2015 though four years later the tedious little monkeys can take a running one at a rolling one.

 

[Old Duck]

Sure, I'm aware of the new and improved system, but my point takes into account both the fact that PvPers don't settle for anything less than nearly maxed out rolls

You lump ALL PvPers into the same category, which is a fallacy. I know lots of guys who like to get together for a game of Sunday football (American). To say that they need to train like NFL players heading to the Super Bowl in order to do this is just silly.

It's also silly to think of an NFL team coming to my small rural town, beating a bunch dads tossing around a football for fun, and then pounding their chests about it, "We're so great, we're so great, we're so great!" Yet that's exactly what you "pro" PvPers do.

 

[Stealthie]

Well said and exactly the same reason why I no longer play in Open. I just refuse to be someone else's game content when there is zero reason to do so.

See, that's the thing.

There's almost no quantifiable "reason" for anybody who isn't interested in PvP to play in Open.
The only reason we do it is the possibility of bumping into another CMDR and saying "hi".

That being the case, PvPers should really be thanking people for playing in Open rather than belittling them for not being interested in PvP.

 

[Lateralus]

I just saw these, too. Basically the ED equivalent of this ship (below). A yellow Conda with all fixed beams (white) and heat sinks. Maximum Firepower. It was pretty spectacular to watch - really lit up the sky!

Yes, I was in Open (missed Rootstat, however), fighting the good fight.

We deployed it to chase off a wing of lawfuls who were attacking friends of ours..
PS why are you PvPing in a Hauler? XD

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

You lump ALL PvPers into the same category, which is a fallacy. I know lots of guys who like to get together for a game of Sunday football (American). To say that they need to train like NFL players heading to the Super Bowl in order to do this is just silly.

Some people take their just a game with their pixel spaceships way to serious

 

[Old Duck]

PS why are you PvPing in a Hauler? XD

I like going against the meta in radical ways (that and I'm poor and haven't unlocked most engineers and am destined to die over and over again).

This is why I was so impressed with Maximum Firepower - not only did it put on an amazing light show, but it was something DIFFERENT, and I appreciate people thinking outside the box. You can vaporize me with that thing any day!