Building a new PC for Elite: Dangerous Odyssey (hardware discussion)

[Fnord Velkor]

The high-end is the usual target of new releases, because that's the most profitable segment and is least likely to cannibalize prior offerings. This launch is a marginal product refresh, mostly a bit of marketing synergy with the 9000 series, aimed at squeezing more money from gullible consumers.

......

I didn't really comprehend the details of the rest of that post but it leads me to ask a silly question. Now this is not really ED-related but I have been hanging back on building a new PC for MSFS2024 until the new AMD chips get here. I have always built using Intel but the new Ultra processor range it seems is not that advantageous for games, plus of course I am fed up with them using new sockets every time (my i7 6700K for example can't be upgraded to a W11 compatible CPU so would need MOBO change just for that).

So here the question - is it worth going for the AMD 9000 series and I presume the x3d versions will be more suitable for gaming?

(I intend waiting until a while after the sim releases anyway.)

 

[Morbad]

I have always built using Intel but the new Ultra processor range it seems is not that advantageous for games, plus of course I am fed up with them using new sockets every time (my i7 6700K for example can't be upgraded to a W11 compatible CPU so would need MOBO change just for that).

Hard to predict how well the Core Ultra options will perform in games like MSFS. Prior Intel architectures were all over the place in FS2020, with the difference largely dependent on how the e-cores were handles as well as how fast one's system memory was. The Core Ultra line will probably have similar issues, but likely has worse baseline memory latency and will be even more dependent on e-cores due to the lack of HT.

So here the question - is it worth going for the AMD 9000 series and I presume the x3d versions will be more suitable for gaming?

FS2020 really liked the v-cache processors and while I hesitate to extrapolate too much from the current game, I would expect FS2024 to behave broadly similarly.

Your question has a rather circular answer, for reasons expressed on the previous page of this thread. Yes, it's worth going for a 9000 series X3D chip (which is less than three weeks out), primarily because the 7800X3D (and to a lesser extent 7950X3D) supply is drying up, which means the 7000 series X3D parts probably won't be a significantly cheaper options...except maybe the 7900X3D, which has some more pronounced complications.

With the older game the 7800X3D was generally the best option, because the advantages of the extra cores and higher clocks on the 7950X3D were reduced by the part being split into two-CCXes that have major latency penalties when talking to each other. This may hold true with FS2024, but FS2024 may or may not leverage the extra cores enough to overcome this. Level1Techs did get pretty good results with the 7900X3D in 2020, but I'm doubful of a repeat of that scenario with 2024 (with either the 7900X3D or 9900X3D); I don't think six cores with access to vcache for the really latency sensitive threads will be enough make the part better than the single CCX 7800X3D or 9800X3D. I'd probably still be looking at the 9800X3D, unless money was no object, as, if all else fails, one can just disable the second CCX on the 9950X3D entirely and have a slightly faster 9800X3D.

Any X3D part is probably a safer bet than anything else though, as the amount of memory FS2024 is recommending is difficult to get to run fast. Beyond 48GiB (2x24) you need dual-rank DIMMs, which is bad for memory clocks, timings, and temperatures, or more than two DIMMs which is much worse. If you have craptons of L3 cache, mediocre main memory performance is fine, but that's not so much the case if you don't have that cache.

The vcache advantage also applies to a large degree to Elite: Dangerous, with the exception that more cores are more senseless as ED is not particularly well threaded. ED also doesn't need very much system memory.

 

[varonica]

So here the question - is it worth going for the AMD 9000 series and I presume the x3d versions will be more suitable for gaming?

(I intend waiting until a while after the sim releases anyway.)

From what I have read performance is only an incremental increase, not a major jump, however we probably won't see more comprehensive numbers until release when third party sites can go mad, previews don't always give us real world numbers. The 3D Vchache on the 9000 series is larger than on the 7000 series and there are other changes under the hood that should mean better performance, but definitely the X3D is the one to get if you are building a PC for gaming. But as I said the numbers we are seeing are all preview numbers and not necessarily reflective of performance in the real world where numerous different types of mobo, memory, vid card and etc can affect what you actually see.

 

[Morbad]

The 3D Vchache on the 9000 series is larger than on the 7000

The v-cache capacity is still the same per CCD.

There is a rumor that the dual-CCD 9000 series X3D parts will have v-cache on both CCDs this time around, but I personally find this doubtful, for two reasons. Firstly, the consumer performance advantage would be marginal...most consumers are buying v-cache for gaming and the reason past dual-CCD X3D parts haven't been decisively better for gaming than their single CCD versions mostly isn't because of the lack of v-cache on the second CCD, but because of inter-CCX latency, and associated scheduling issues, that v-cache can't do much to allieviate. The second reason is that v-cache CCDs are more expensive and AMD probably wants to reserve as many as possible for higher margin enterprise parts. It's possible there are enough niche use cases, and/or enough potential marketing hype, to justify this config, but I'm very skeptical.

 

[varonica]

There is a rumor that the dual-CCD 9000 series X3D parts will have v-cache on both CCDs this time around, but I personally find this doubtful, for two reasons

Yeah you are right the 9800X3D will have the same, but I have seen rumours on the specs that the 9950X3D and the 9900X3D will supposedly have 128Mb rather than 64mb of the current gen, along with improvements to memory handling which will supposedly reduce that latency, but we will have to wait for release to see whether that's true or not.

 

[Morbad]

Yeah you are right the 9800X3D will have the same, but I have seen rumours on the specs that the 9950X3D and the 9900X3D will supposedly have 128Mb rather than 64mb of the current gen, along with improvements to memory handling which will supposedly reduce that latency, but we will have to wait for release to see whether that's true or not.

They've already patched Granite Ridge inter-CCX latency down to Raphael levels with AGESA 1.2.0.2. This level of latency is still four times that of local L3. It's probably not going to get any faster as the limiting factor is the distance the data has to travel.

If one CCX needs something in another, there is an unavoidable penalty. There is no direct connection between the CCXes and no way to synchronize their contents without a lot of slow, high-latency, traffic. Each CCX may be able to load similar code into L3 (via requesting the same stuff from memory and then evicting what doesn't fit in L2), but coherency traffic is unavoidable as the changes one CCX makes to it's local cache contents are not predictable; any time one CCX wants to know what the other is doing, they need to talk over fabric through the IOD then to the other CCX and back.

I'm not saying that more cache on the second CCX will never help, but a lot of people seem to think that this lack of cache is the reason why past dual-CCD vcache parts performed like dual-CCD parts...when the fundamental problem is that a dual CCD part is two separate CPUs on one package, not one monolithic CPU. The non v-cache parts, with exactly the same caches on both CCDs, have the same problems relative to their single CCD equivalents. A 5800X, 7700X, or 9700X is often fully competitive with a 5950X, 7950X, or 9950X in games, even games that can make use of more cores, because of this. AMD's CPU drivers/power plans also treat dual-CCD parts, v-cache or not (see here, under "The Return of The PPM Provisioning Driver", but this clustering goes all the way back to at least Zen 2, with CPPC core ordering focusing on CCXes), increasingly similarly, because they have similar issues.

Enthusiasts have long realized this and it's one of the driving factors behind disabling the second CCD on AMD CPUs or E-cores on Intel...barriers to inter-core communication (non-monolithic architectures for AMD and semi-segregated clusters bolted to a single ring stop on Intel) often trump the advantages the extra cores bring, especially if the application and OS schedueler aren't acutely aware of CPU topology and aren't able to automatically assign threads correctly. It's why my gaming oriented builds, at any budget, have single CCD\CCX v-cache CPUs, and will likely continute to do so, no matter how much cache the second CCD has (unless I just want to be able to have two CCDs to bin and plan on disabling the weaker one). Scheduling is getting better to be sure, but if all your heavily interconnected and latency dependent threads are already concentrated into one CCX, the amount of cache in the second CCX is of much lower importance.

Either way, a lot of people are going to be very disappointed with the 9950X3D. If those that want v-cache on both CCDs get it, they are going to complain it doesn't make the CPU much faster. If they don't get it, they are going to blame it's absence on why the CPUs aren't much faster.

TLDR;

What people think the problem is: The second CCX is different.

What the problem actually is: There is a second CCX.

 

[idahosurge]

What the problem actually is: There is a second CCX.

Does the 9700X have one CCX?

For EDO, any idea if the 9800X3D will be significantly better than the 9700X?

I need to build a new PC and since Intel is not releasing any new X CPU's I have decided to switch to AMD on the new build.

 

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

Hi

I got this with my old Rog strix H370-i.

View attachment 404969
but it looks like only do them on the itx boards e.g.

ROG Strix X670E-I Gaming WiFi mini-ITX motherboard

ASUS ROG Strix X670E-I Gaming WiFi features 10 + 2 power stages, ROG Strix Hive, EZ mode PBO button, DDR5 support, PCIe® 5.0, onboard Wi-Fi 6E, two M.2 slots and M.2 Gen 5 & chipset heatsink, and two USB4® Type-C ports. It also features AI Cooling II, AI Networking, Two-Way AI Noise Cancelation...

rog.asus.com

View attachment 404972

I don't see the equivalent on yours

ROG STRIX B650E-F GAMING WIFI | Motherboards | ROG United Kingdom

The ROG Strix B650E-F Gaming WiFi takes you to the future with 12 + 2 power stages, hyperspeed DDR5 memory, and next-gen PCIe® 5.0 connectivity. It is equipped with three M.2 slots with heatsinks, a USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 port, WiFi 6E, AI Networking, Two-Way AI Noise Cancelation, and Aura Sync RGB...

rog.asus.com

Yeah, my MB doesn't come with that adaptor. I wrote an e-mail to the Asus help / query section on their site last week, but I haven't had a reply yet.
I've just received this though through the post this morning that I ordered last week...

Pardon our interruption...

This is I think a genuine Asus part, it's the right one for my board anyway.
I also bought a Shakmods (black) braided cable front panel set to go with it, They weren't very expensive, it'll blend in better with my black case cable runs., and I received them yesterday.
I didn't go with the adaptor cable from Hong Kong. I searched the web for some info for their site, and got mixed revues. Some said if they sent the wrong thing / components it was nigh on impossible to return or replace the item (and the staff were in many cases not very helpful ). Plus the delivery times were in weeks and possibly months, so I looked elsewhere. It's the first time I've ordered something off e-bay but delivery was in a few days, and it was what it said on the tin.

I've said previously I think., all I need now is 32 GB of Ram which I've got sussed out, prices are fluctuating at the moment so I'll keep an eye out, and a copy of windows 11 home or Pro.
Windows 11 Home is currently priced at about £110 , I haven't seen anything cheaper, and I'm not trusting any of the 'other' sites that sell it for considerably less, but I'm still looking.

Interesting video from Gamers Nexus I saw last week, though it's a few years old now.
This is my 'old' case I'll be using, though it's not old in the sense that it's virtually like new (especially as I've given it a good clean) I've replaced the fans (kept the replaced ones as spares as 200mm fans are getting a bit scarce now. It's even got the protective film on both sides of the clear plastic window still!.
As a side note...I've noticed on my Montech 95 Pro case that when the GPU is running (playing Odyssey) although the GPU is within good levels of temperature (28c-35c idle no fan spin, 58-60c top temperatures 1450 fan spin) the glass side window more or less in the region opposite the GPU and CPU Air cooler gets quite warm. More or less centred just below the CPU Air cooler position and the same sort of thing just above where the top of the GPU is.
Everywhere else is relatively cool, its no problem as everything else seems to be okay temp wise. The CPU is about 43c under load.

Which has given me some thought with the HAF X case.
On the HAF case the side window fan is usually fitted to drag air in and blow air over the GPU and part of the CPU Cooler fins.
I fitted a new 200mm fan to it yesterday but because of what I observed with the Montech case I'm going to try the 200mm fan on the side window to drag air out and see what the results are....it might be a fruitless exercise but it might be interesting. It's no bother to reverse the fan back to the normal fitting method....just thought I try it.
I have another mod to do as well, but it's one I know works in lowering the CPU cooler temps more than the standard set up.
Link to Nexus.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/83d6or/gamers_nexus_revisit_cooler_master_haf_x_in_2018

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/83d6or/gamers_nexus_revisit_cooler_master_haf_x_in_2018/


I just thought to post this up in case it might interest some, if only to discuss comp hardware. I'll be playing Odyssey on both computers so it will be interesting to see which comp. is the overall better set up for playing the game with the various hardware configurations . I've a strong feeling though that the HAF X case is going to be the coolest!.

Jack

 

[Mrc_NorthEast]

Does the 9700X have one CCX?

For EDO, any idea if the 9800X3D will be significantly better than the 9700X?

I need to build a new PC and since Intel is not releasing any new X CPU's I have decided to switch to AMD on the new build.

6 or 8 core amd cpu's use one ccx currently. 12 or 16 core amd cpu's have 2 currently. We will need to wait for the reviews of the 9000 series x3d chips to know the performance

If I were going to build a new pc this year, I would choose amd as well, but I might go for the 7800x3d depending on the price and perf compared to the 9800x3d

 

[Morbad]

Arrow Lake reviews are starting to show up:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n537Z7pJug

Does the 9700X have one CCX?

Yes.

If it's a Zen 3, 4, or 5 CPU with eight or fewer physical cores, it's a single CCX.

For EDO, any idea if the 9800X3D will be significantly better than the 9700X?

The 9800X3D will almost certainly be significantly better than the 9700X in EDO.

In Odyssey my 5800X3D was a major improvement over my 5800X and the 7800X3D I have access to is still considerably faster than my 5800X3D or 9700X. I fully expect the 9800X3D to be modestly faster than the 7800X3D (mostly due to the clock speed uplift), and much faster than the the 9700X.

That said, If you see a good deal (around 400USD or less) on the 7800X3D, grab one.

As a side note...I've noticed on my Montech 95 Pro case that when the GPU is running (playing Odyssey) although the GPU is within good levels of temperature (28c-35c idle no fan spin, 58-60c top temperatures 1450 fan spin) the glass side window more or less in the region opposite the GPU and CPU Air cooler gets quite warm. More or less centred just below the CPU Air cooler position and the same sort of thing just above where the top of the GPU is.

It's hard for layouts like this to keep the CPU cooler from ingesting hot air from the GPU, especially without ventilation on the side panel.

An option that works well is to reverse the flow of the CPU cooler and making the rear case fan an intake. If you like filters, you'll have to add your own and some changes to top and front fan air flow may also be required, but it does provide a direct stream of cool external air to the CPU heatsink without compromising GPU airflow.

 

[idahosurge]

Yes.

If it's a Zen 3, 4, or 5 CPU with eight or fewer physical cores, it's a single CCX.



The 9800X3D will almost certainly be significantly better than the 9700X in EDO.

In Odyssey my 5800X3D was a major improvement over my 5800X and the 7800X3D I have access to is still considerably faster than my 5800X3D or 9700X. I fully expect the 9800X3D to be modestly faster than the 7800X3D (mostly due to the clock speed uplift), and much faster than the the 9700X.

That said, If you see a good deal (around 400USD or less) on the 7800X3D, grab one.

Thanks for the response.

I looked at this Tech Power up review for the Ultra 285 and in games the 7800X3D still is on top. Does not look good for the Ultra 285 line.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/intel-core-ultra-9-285k/20.html

 

[idahosurge]

6 or 8 core amd cpu's use one ccx currently. 12 or 16 core amd cpu's have 2 currently. We will need to wait for the reviews of the 9000 series x3d chips to know the performance

If I were going to build a new pc this year, I would choose amd as well, but I might go for the 7800x3d depending on the price and perf compared to the 9800x3d

Thanks for the response.

 

[Morbad]

Core Ultra benchmarks are all over the place. It's probably going to take some time for firmware and OSes to be updated enough for a really clear picture of it's gaming performance to emerge.

That said, there were a bunch of changes this generation (moving the memory controller to a different tile, removing HT, reducing P-core boost clocks, etc) that will probably prove to be liabilities when it comes to gaming, with some much more situational improvements (wider core, bigger L2, faster e-cores).

 

[Alec Turner]

Oh well, it was fun having the best gaming CPU for a short while at least!

AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D Review: A New Gaming CPU King

AMD's Ryzen 7 9800X3D is here, bringing powerful upgrades with 3D V-Cache tech and enhanced thermals. Without question, this is the best CPU released since the 7800X3D,...

www.techspot.com

 

[Morbad]

Oh well, it was fun having the best gaming CPU for a short while at least!

AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D Review: A New Gaming CPU King

AMD's Ryzen 7 9800X3D is here, bringing powerful upgrades with 3D V-Cache tech and enhanced thermals. Without question, this is the best CPU released since the 7800X3D,...

www.techspot.com

Your CPU didn't get any worse just cause something better showed up.

 

[Alec Turner]

Your CPU didn't get any worse just cause something better showed up.

Oh absolutely, lol … the smiley in my post was important. I'm 100% joking about being bothered … it's the natural way of things that there's always better/faster hardware on the horizon. The 9800x3d sounds fab but I’m very happy with my new PC.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

as a rule of thumb... never look at prices or new products after you spent your money .

 

[the100thmonkey]

as a rule of thumb... never look at prices or new products after you spent your money .

But it's so hard not to!

The 9800X3D looks like a really good upgrade over my 5800X3D. I'll probably wait a year or so before I get one, though - it's not like my current system is a slouch. It's still in the conversation.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

But it's so hard not to!

I know! It took me all the restraint I could muster to not look at GPU prices at all for a longish period after I had bought my 3080 ti at pretty much the worst time on the market.

 

[Jumpin' Jack Flash]

Hi All

Just thought I'd post this up in case anyone's interested. I can't see any retailers (or prices either) over here stocking it yet (UK), though I've only had a brief search.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awz_CG2320E


Jack