General / Off-Topic Building a wall

It should say something about the US that, when someone shoots up a school or office killing dozens of people,they have to pause and say "is this terrorism or just a vanilla mass shooting"

I mean if it's terrorism we can lose our stuff over this and do every possible thing to prevent this ever happening again no matter how disproportionate, but if it's just a bog standard murder spree then we'll shrug and say there is no way we could have stopped this"

If the Sandy Hook killers or Dylan Roof or The Virgina Tech killers had shouted "Allah Akbar!" would the response (effectively a collective "meh") havr been different?

In the eyes of most...
Brown = terrorist
White = home grown, lone wolf

People have no damn clue what they are on a bout when it comes to terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic used by enemy states and organizations. Like guerrilla warfare is not something you'll see some lone gunman being labeled as participating in.

When a person does this on their own, lets call it what it is...a mass murderer. Motivations can range from mental illness to radicalization, but if they are not receiving support and instructions from an enemy entity it is NOT terrorism.
 
Terrorism, hate-crime, etc...all terms that just obfuscate facts. Meaningless semantics in the overwhelming majority of cases.

Murdering someone for one crappy reason or another really doesn't change anything.
 
Terrorism, hate-crime, etc...all terms that just obfuscate facts. Meaningless semantics in the overwhelming majority of cases.

Murdering someone for one crappy reason or another really doesn't change anything.

It is definitely important to identify if the killer is motivated by an terrorist cell or organization. An organization can be retaliated against and prevented from attacking again. Not much we can do about the crazies except improve outreach for mental health and shift national conversations from being confrontational to constructive.
 
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In China too, there is a wall, and everyone is admiring :p

8896262.jpg
 
It is definitely important to identify if the killer is motivated by an terrorist cell or organization. An organization can be retaliated against and prevented from attacking again. Not much we can do about the crazies except improve outreach for mental health and shift national conversations from being confrontational to constructive.

That's something the investigation should reveal and doesn't change the fundamental nature of the act, or require a special label.

In China too, there is a wall, and everyone is admiring :p

The US should learn from China's mistake. Expensive, ineffective, only potential value is as a tourist attraction, or source of building material for actually useful structures, at some far future data.
 
that at least is something, isn't it?

I don't think anyone from the Ming dynasty is in any position to think so.

By the time Trump's wall is a tourist attraction, the USA will be little more than a chapter in a history book, and whoever is profiting off of it probably will probably be contemplating a giant force field around their borders to keep their air safe from the Spaceballs.
 
In the eyes of most...
Brown = terrorist
White = home grown, lone wolf

People have no damn clue what they are on a bout when it comes to terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic used by enemy states and organizations. Like guerrilla warfare is not something you'll see some lone gunman being labeled as participating in.

When a person does this on their own, lets call it what it is...a mass murderer. Motivations can range from mental illness to radicalization, but if they are not receiving support and instructions from an enemy entity it is NOT terrorism.
if someone shoots up a building or sets off an explosion killing people in the belief that they are "doing the right thing" i.e. a religious belief, is that not a reasonable definition of a terrorist? (as opposed to somebody committing violence knowing it is the "wrong thing" but doing it for money or other on-ideological reasons)

I'm wondering, because since 1997 there have been 6 murders, 40+ bombings and over 600 anthrax threats in the US by a religious extremist group.

I'm talking about fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists usually who have shot and bombed clinics in the US.

given that the groups directly impacted by the recent immigration order are responsible for zero deaths and 12 injuries in the US over the same period what magnitude of response against Christian extremists will there be?
 
if someone shoots up a building or sets off an explosion killing people in the belief that they are "doing the right thing" i.e. a religious belief, is that not a reasonable definition of a terrorist? (as opposed to somebody committing violence knowing it is the "wrong thing" but doing it for money or other on-ideological reasons)

No, not unless causing terror was their goal. I'm sure many of them were just trying to make people dead, not afraid.

Also, pretty much no one does "the wrong thing". Most everyone is entirely certain of their own righteousness, no matter what it is they are doing, unless they screw up and get caught then have to pretend to be remorseful because Western judicial systems value that sort of thing.
 
if someone shoots up a building or sets off an explosion killing people in the belief that they are "doing the right thing" i.e. a religious belief, is that not a reasonable definition of a terrorist? (as opposed to somebody committing violence knowing it is the "wrong thing" but doing it for money or other on-ideological reasons)

I'm wondering, because since 1997 there have been 6 murders, 40+ bombings and over 600 anthrax threats in the US by a religious extremist group.

I'm talking about fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists usually who have shot and bombed clinics in the US.

given that the groups directly impacted by the recent immigration order are responsible for zero deaths and 12 injuries in the US over the same period what magnitude of response against Christian extremists will there be?

Well, in these cases, the perpetrator is usually not associated or given orders by any specific Christian organization. Often they are people who have been radicalized while spending too much time digging into the cesspits of the internet. You could say the propietors of false and hateful messaging on the internet are the organizations giving out marching orders but those people are far too nebulous and indirect to place blame on them and remove their freedom of speech.

Perhaps it is just semantics, but I thought I got this from when the government was introducing us to what terrorism is defined as, according to the g-men. Groups with a specific agenda using the tools of fear and confusion to enact their will are, to me, terrorists.

These lone wolf guys, to me, those are extremists who commit acts of terror but are not a part of the existential threat we refer to as terrorism.

Its all bad crap, but I do want to keep separate terrorist organization like ISIS separate from extremists like the recent Quebec Mosque shooter. They require wholly different approaches to deal with and should not be conflated together as terrorism. Doing so will ensure you ignore problems that only come from one side of the equation.
 
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No, not unless causing terror was their goal. I'm sure many of them were just trying to make people dead, not afraid.

Also, pretty much no one does "the wrong thing". Most everyone is entirely certain of their own righteousness, no matter what it is they are doing, unless they screw up and get caught then have to pretend to be remorseful because Western judicial systems value that sort of thing.
so their plan was to prevent by killing every single doctor one at a time and not to kill a few to terrorise the others into stopping? how do you explain the anthrax hoaxes? an anthrax hoax would kill nobody but be very terrorising.

would you not agree that their aim was to cause fear amongst providers?
 
so their plan was to prevent by killing every single doctor one at a time and not to kill a few to terrorise the others into stopping? how do you explain the anthrax hoaxes? an anthrax hoax would kill nobody but be very terrorising.

would you not agree that their aim was to cause fear amongst providers?

I'm sure some individuals and groups were attempting to instill fear via their actions.
 
Well, in these cases, the perpetrator is usually not associated or given orders by any specific Christian organization. Often they are people who have been radicalized while spending too much time digging into the cesspits of the internet. You could say the propietors of false and hateful messaging on the internet are the organizations giving out marching orders but those people are far too nebulous and indirect to place blame on them and remove their freedom of speech.

Perhaps it is just semantics, but I thought I got this from when the government was introducing us to what terrorism is defined as, according to the g-men. Groups with a specific agenda using the tools of fear and confusion to enact their will are, to me, terrorists.

These lone wolf guys, to me, those are extremists who commit acts of terror but are not a part of the existential threat we refer to as terrorism.

Its all bad crap, but I do want to keep separate terrorist organization like ISIS separate from extremists like the recent Quebec Mosque shooter. They require wholly different approaches to deal with and should not be conflated together as terrorism. Doing so will ensure you ignore problems that only come from one side of the equation.
hummmm interesting take.

first off I 100% agree ISIS is a terrorist organisation.

proportionate steps should be taken to prevent ISIS "soldiers" (individuals specifically travelling to the US, possibly after experience or training in ISIS territory/camps to attack) entering the UK/US etc.

the steps to do this will be things like vetting, visa etc.

on the other hand the steps needed to combat self radicalising "lone wolf" types (be the cause Islamic, pro life, neo , militia) are different.

for a start, they are already here (by definition) so immigration controls are ineffective.

what we can do is

a) intelligence - who is becoming radicalised? what are the signs etc.
b) counter radicalisation of those identified as being, or at risk of being radicalised
c) reducing the radicalising triggers.

it's (c) that is most impacted by the immigration order. it's the perfect propaganda tool.

remember Waco? this act, plus a few more was a rallying call to those already unhappy with the federal government and became a catalyst for transforming the disaffected to radicals.

the Waco incident was a direct trigger to the Oklahoma bombing.

if the ATF hadn't botched the Waco siege, either by preventing it happening or by deescalating it peacefully then Oklahoma wouldn't have happened.

this immigration order is another Waco incident. there will be terrorist attacks in the US, probably by someone already there, maybe a recent arrival or maybe a second or third generation immigrant (i.e. an American) or even a convert none of who would have been stopped by the order but whose reason for the attack was the order.

and when, and it might be a decade, it happens Trump will be directly to blame.
 
I don't think anyone from the Ming dynasty is in any position to think so.

By the time Trump's wall is a tourist attraction, the USA will be little more than a chapter in a history book, and whoever is profiting off of it probably will probably be contemplating a giant force field around their borders to keep their air safe from the Spaceballs.
Well played.
 
The More Importand thing is that the Wall wont be stopping anyone.
The Vast Majority of Illegal Immigrants are simply slipping through the Border in their Car on the Official Street.
Because its simply outright Impossible to Control every Single Person in every Single Vehicle so thoroughly that you could prevent this.

Only like 1 out of 100 Illegal Immigrants in the USA walked over the Border in some remote desert to cross that Border.

Illegal Immigrants come by
Boat without being Controlled at all cause its Impossible to constantly keep the entire Coast Guarded.
Aircraft using Faked Passports and Visa because the Security at Airports simply dont have the Time that they could check each Person so thoroughly that this could be prevented.
and by Car. By simply driving over the Border in a Trucks Cargo or even the Back of a Car as its simply outright Impossible to Check all Cars in a manner which would prevent this.


The Wall will be Build.
It will be Ugly as Hell because its going to be an Reinforced Concrete thingy in Grey.
It will cost a Fortune which will be Paid by the US Taxpayers. And it will not use anything. Because the 10% Illegal Immigrants actually hindered by this will simply use other Ways to Cross the Border lol
For example getting a Damn Ladder and a Rope to Climb up on One Side and Climb down on the Other Side.



Worse is still that Trump keeps Ignoring the Constitution and is expanding his Authority by removing Opposition and Install his Minions there.
Its becoming more and more likely that the USA will go down the same way as Turkey.
 
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