General / Off-Topic Building a wall

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Regarding Political/Event Discussions in the Off-topic forum
Hi all,

With all of the events happening in the world recently, I wanted to reiterate our standings on the off-topic forums regarding politics and world events. The moderation team reserves the final say on the matter, including skipping advisories and issuing infractions to halt such behavior listed below. Using the off-topic forum to post any of the following is strictly forbidden.

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Above all else, yes, we do permit our off-topic forum to be used for political discussions so long as its respectful and constructive. Remember, debate the subject, not the person.
 
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You've made an unwarranted accusation and assumption without evidence. I doubt that anything I write would change the mind of someone who thinks that way. I do not discuss race, because I do not practice or believe in identity politics. I would hope that one day we look at our country as American citizens, rather than privileged groups looking for carve outs, special protections, and political power that discriminates and favors special interests.

I know, crazy idea.

No. I have looked for facts. This is a very American idea. That we can not discuss the in's and out's of why your beliefs exist. Its also very American that we can not ask about race lest we be racist. Crazy idea? No. Dumb idea. Asking if you are racist against Obama is not identity politics, its asking if you believe his values are useless based on his heritage. But of course you deny this because it pushes your ideals. You are basically claiming you don't see color which is the most moronic answer to a race question that people give. Of course you see color. We all do. You shouldn't one day look at your country as American citizens, you should today. You are some what proving my point by backwards statements. Its like the idea "make America great again." - when was America great? Please. Let me know. I see no time in American history when the word again maybe applied.

In Germany you realize they teach about what they did to every student in the country so they do not act again like they once did. Its called repeating the past. Do your schools? Do you guys teach about the mass genocide of the Native Americans? Or Slavery? Two great American times [sarcasm less you call me racist again]. No you hide from your past and do not work to solve it by teaching of its instances. You currently indulge in slavery on a mass scale but don't call it that. You call it mass incarceration of which black males make up more than 50% of your prisoners and account for less than 25% of the population. And those numbers are off by a lot. Sorry, but you can't get out of the discussion on race based on this. Your entire country is at fault, and especially the big white dump in your half burned down white house.

You teach, for example, that the British were responsible for burning the white house down... they weren't. We were. You teach that you freed countries like the Netherlands in World War II... you didn't, Canada did, then we were ordered to leave and let you walk in and take the glory. We teach about all these things here in Canada. We also discuss our own atrocities, like the way we have treated our own Native American population. We also don't have a perfect record on racism either. It does exist up here, sometimes in large pockets. Alberta, for example, is the racist capital of Canada. I can't even narrow it down to one city like Calgary unfortunately because the entire province partakes and doesn't see it as racist to hate based on the color of their skin.

As for unwarranted. My profile photo is of me, your profile photo is of... what looks like a little girl in the corner of a room. Also, I notice you did not find a colored little girl, you used a white little girl which means chances are you are a female, and that you are white. Statistically speaking this is more likely as we emulate with what we are used to seeing in the mirror. Its not an assumption, this is the human practice. You should do some research and perhaps look into the human sciences and the way our minds word. It is also very common for white people on forums like these to suddenly through out the claim that they are colored randomly with the belief that I can not see your ethnicity, so excuse me for making the assumption that you are doing this as you did not seek to back up your claim or even answer a small question. You are still trying not to do this. Which at this point I don't care about. This discussion with you is moot because you have very few of the concepts I am speaking of.

For the record I am a Dutch Canadian. I have lived abroad, many times and for a long period of time. I came out of the poor class, worked my way into one of the top photographers in the world (that's why my profile photo is so damn good) and then decided f this, I don't agree with these people and gave it all up to join the military. I have crossed many boundaries in my life, learned many things. One of those things that I learned was that I have a responsibility to argue my point while doing my best to see the other side of the argument. Asking you if you are racist was not so I could do what you just did "I doubt that anything I write would change the mind of someone who thinks this way." [look whose making generalizations and vagaries now] but so I can better understand the claims you are making and once again the angles you are driving at. I can't see your side or the way you are thinking without understanding what has caused you to think this way. It just wont work. I don't even care if you are racist, I care to understand "okay, I need to be delicate with this subject so as not to set off that hat that this individual currently wears when trying to access their view while making my point."

I know... crazy idea...
 
Well.
Depending on what your Aiming for. Isolationism is not exactly a Bad thing.

Isolationism means that your Country will not have much Trade. But also that all your Domestic needs are Produced in your Country.
The USA is an very Ressource Rich Country and has an very Expanisve Industry. So it can indeed survive Isolationism as it can effectively Produce everything it needs by itself.

Of course your General Economy as well as your Power in the World will Suffer Heavily from this. Because the Companies in your Country wont Aim to be Competetive and because you have no Leverage over other Countries.


In case of Donald Trump however I think its simply because he is Stupid.
He does not seem to understand the thing about leverage on other Countries.
Moreover he does not understand that the USAs Economy is based on Investment not on Trade Balance.

The USA got an Tax System which results in Companies also Paying Taxes on Foreign Earnings. (An very strong fight between EU and US. Because many US Companies despite being in the EU. Are Paying Taxes to the USA)
So the Trade Deficit itself is already an wrong Statistic anyways. Because the USA is indeed Benefitting from having Companies Abroad.
However. Trump does not understand this. And only looks at the Jobs a Factory would bring in the USA rather than thinking about the Jobs resulting in the USA from the Additional Wealth earned in Mexico.

The other thing is.
The USA has an Superior Trade Power over other Countries due to its Big Market. So Trump seems to think he can leverage benefits by adding Taxes to these Markets.
But the moment he does that he will lose that Power.
He is stuck and fixated on the Trade Balance. So he wants to enforce an even Trade Balance. But that wont work for the USA because the USA is simply too Powerful an Market to work as an Export Economy.
For the Biggest Economy in the World to be an Export Market. It would require that pretty much the entire remaining World would Buy exclusively from the USA. And that is just not going to happen.

To be an Export Power you either need very many Import Countries Importing almost exclusively from you.
Or you need at least one Bigger Country than yourself to be Importing in large amounts from you.

In case of China for example the only reason why they can maintain as an Export Power with their incredible Size. Is because the USA which is Bigger than them is keeping up Importing Large amounts from them.
(which is also why this is so favorable for the EU. Because if Trump stop Buying tons of Stuff from China. China will be slowed down as well and will be opening up to the EU more to get access to the only other Market in the World that can actually enable em them to keep Growing)


Trump is making an very Company Boss like Fallacy here.
Just like most Industrial and Business Bosses. He assumes that the USA Adding Taxes will not Result in other Countries adding Taxes to the USA as well because they dont want to risk losing Access to the US Market which is very Valuable to them.
But he is heavily Underestimating three things.
1. The Pride of Countries is pretty much Guaranteed to Answer in Kind and also add Border Taxes against the USA.
2. The more Border Taxes the USA put up. The less Valuable their Market becomes to others.
3. The US Companies in the Past have been Investing Heavily in Foreign Countries. But the USAs Tax System is set up in a way. Which Results in these Companies still Paying Taxes on this even if they are in a Foreign Country.


In General him adding Border Taxes to Balance out the Trade Deficit. Would not exactly be wrong either.
But he should add small Taxes that are Acceptable to Protect Domestic Economy.
For example. if he would add an 2-5% for all Imports. That would already give an Advantage for Companies to Settle in the USA.
More Importandly. This would be deemed Acceptable by most Countries and would only draw light or no Consequences by others as others usually have some Taxes on already.



Joke is.
Some of Trumps Base Policy Ideas are not even Bad.
I would agree with quite a few of them.
If he would not be such a Buffoon and completely overshoot any reasonable margin.

Its like he wants rid his Wheat Field from the Field Mice.
But instead of laying out Traps and Settling some Hunter Animals to Reduce the Mice back to an Healthy Population where they loosen up the earth and feed on the Insects.
He went ahead and wants to poisen the entire Field rotting out the entire Mice Population which will result in him not only poisoning the entire harvest for years to come but also means that he will be dealing with an insect infestation next cause the mice will not be there to feed on the insects....

I was wondering if it was based on a lot of these factors. Thanks for presenting these arguments and possible facts. I had not been aware that America could survive isolationism. And I am curious, if they can, how long can they? I assume this all takes into account that they wont be capable of getting everything that they get from other countries as well as they wont be capable of doing it all right away, meaning that they will be forced to create factories and various markets to replace the commodities they receive from outsourced countries.

Looking at this all I think there is a good chance you are right about his ego and the way he runs his ideas. Assuming I am not the first person who sees he finds it more important to protect his ego than he does to protect the American way of life or the American value system that tries to stretch across the planet. There was real opportunity in his election. At some point his supporters will begin to see that he is not draining the swamp, but lining its borders and filling it with more water. The divide between citizens will become larger and more diverse as time goes on based on his practices and on the way he tries to force his perceptions on the common people.

I actually happen to agree that some of his thoughts aren't the worst in history. My wife always maintained the idea that he is working to get elected to enforce what the people want and to push both sides together, which is clearly not the case. On the border tax, I think the only reason why this worries me is the huge connection Canada has to the United States and how much our economy relies on your country. I don't think this will end any time soon. Even if for some reason China approaches us like they have begun to approach Mexico to step in for the US.

Then fly fixed, n00b. xD

Nah, killing Trump isn't the way to go. It'd be against all democratic principles and you'd end up with having Pence in charge. ^^

This would also push the divide in the country way more and cause people to polarize to each side. You would instantly see another civil war.
 
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FWIW, I don't think the America as the world knows it today can survive isolationism. Most Americans are strongly addicted to their current standard of living. Anything that impedes it is viewed as an assault on American values. There is a minority of isolationists, who can survive off their land or know how to barter, but the majority of Americans like their affordable comforts and conveniences and those comforts and conveniences are attainable because of our global market.

It isn't like America can just turn the engine back on...those old factories have crumbled, mines have flooded and the institutional knowledge for running such things has grown old and dead. Further, as standard of living has increased, thanks to more higher paying jobs, fewer Americans are willing to work for poverty level wages. Closing up the borders would almost certainly lead to some sort of rebellion...a civil war, maybe. In any event, I know a secluded place, deep in the forest, where bears outnumber people. If ish hits the the fan, you'll know where to not find me.
 
we appear to have drifted off topic......

has anyone, particularly those who have defended Trump, got any ideas how the US could make Mexico pay for building a wall?
 
we appear to have drifted off topic......

has anyone, particularly those who have defended Trump, got any ideas how the US could make Mexico pay for building a wall?

For as long as Trump has campaigned on the notion, there has never been a formal plan to make it happen. I think his supporters expect that Mexico would just cut us a check or the Dealmaster in Chief would create such a brilliant deal that Mexico would have no choice but to joyfully pay for it.

The wall stuff is a distraction. They are hoping we don't pay attention to the cabinet appointments going through their confirmation hearings. They hope we turn a blind eye to whatever Paul Ryan is proposing. They want us to look the other way as nepotism and cronyism fills the highest ranks of the bureaucracy. It is an impossible thing made to seem plausible to distract and divide.
 
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we appear to have drifted off topic......

has anyone, particularly those who have defended Trump, got any ideas how the US could make Mexico pay for building a wall?

It isn't possible to make them pay. It's another idiotic move by an idiotic man who would be out of his depth in a babys potty.
 
For as long as Trump has campaigned on the notion, there has never been a formal plan to make it happen. I think his supporters expect that Mexico would just cut us a check or the Dealmaster in Chief would create such a brilliant deal that Mexico would have no choice but to joyfully pay for it.

The wall stuff is a distraction. They are hoping we don't pay attention to the cabinet appointments going through their confirmation hearings. They hope we turn a blind eye to whatever Paul Ryan is proposing. They want us to look the other way as nepotism and cronyism fills the highest ranks of the bureaucracy. It is an impossible thing made to seem plausible to distract and divide.

I have a feeling, and I maybe wrong, that his supporters somehow thought that America had the power to just force the issue be it by military aggression or by denial of access to American markets not realizing that this power does not exist. There is also a suspicion in here that they don't know the history behind the great wall of China and the isolationism that country took for a long time based upon its borders. While I wish I knew a little bit more about that topic, if I remember correctly China used the great wall to cut itself off from the world long after the Mongolian threat subsided and it cost them there development and caused them to fall behind when it came to technology and social development and the rest of the world.

The wall simply wont do what people hope it does. Would America pulling back from policing other countries and beginning to police there own in a positive way achieve these goals?

- - - Updated - - -

It isn't possible to make them pay. It's another idiotic move by an idiotic man who would be out of his depth in a babys potty.

You make me laugh to hard my friend.
 
The wall simply wont do what people hope it does. Would America pulling back from policing other countries and beginning to police there own in a positive way achieve these goals?

In my opinion, I do think it is time for the USA to take a more equal role in policing the world. Getting to that is hard b/c the USA has all the bombs, all the planes, all the tanks, all the ships and all the robots (not literally all, but when you add it all up, you almost can't see the other piles from the USA mountain of weaponry). However, I think it is high time we stop meddling with the Middle East. We don't need that oil anymore, we've got plenty over here. In fact, what I'd advocate for is actually a limited form of isolationism. It is time for the Americas to start cooperating fully and in earnest. Our proximity (and ability to drive anywhere in the Americas) makes us good trading partners and natural resources are vast across the two continents. I would be for a gradual normalizing of relations with Europe, as I always see them as that family member that keeps dragging you into their trailer park drama. Stronger ties with Pacific countries would be beneficial as many of those economies are beginning to turn up as is consumerism in South America.

Many great people in America's past have warned about the troubles of Europe and to not get to entangled in their geopolitics.
 
In my opinion, I do think it is time for the USA to take a more equal role in policing the world. Getting to that is hard b/c the USA has all the bombs, all the planes, all the tanks, all the ships and all the robots (not literally all, but when you add it all up, you almost can't see the other piles from the USA mountain of weaponry). However, I think it is high time we stop meddling with the Middle East. We don't need that oil anymore, we've got plenty over here. In fact, what I'd advocate for is actually a limited form of isolationism. It is time for the Americas to start cooperating fully and in earnest. Our proximity (and ability to drive anywhere in the Americas) makes us good trading partners and natural resources are vast across the two continents. I would be for a gradual normalizing of relations with Europe, as I always see them as that family member that keeps dragging you into their trailer park drama. Stronger ties with Pacific countries would be beneficial as many of those economies are beginning to turn up as is consumerism in South America.

Many great people in America's past have warned about the troubles of Europe and to not get to entangled in their geopolitics.

This makes a lot of sense to me and seems like one of the more positive posts on isolationism in this thread. I actually wished Trump would announce removing the wall with Mexico (the portions that already exist) and would start working more honestly and openly with both countries instead of moving in the opposite direction. I hadn't even thought about central America and South America yet and glad to see someone else has. The only part of South America that crossed my mind is Columbia and Venezuela concerning drugs (which happen to be a huge portion of why the wall is being built unless I am missing something [other then the supposed rapists]).

Last night I watched a really interesting documentary while having that argument with you know who *points up* and it was based on drugs and the decriminalization of and how doing so greatly impacted the welfare of the countries that made these reforms both in health and consumption. Would the wall be as essential if all the countries in the America's moved to this style of thought and instead of fighting a losing war that includes hatred based on whose producing what aligned themselves to the rights and dignities of the individuals. I mean Trump has even accused Canada "of the Heroin" which isn't a huge problem for us... I mean meth happens to be a huge issue out here in Toronto. Had he said Meth I might have had to give it to him, but Heroin not so much.
 
There are a lot of problems in South America...from unfriendly regimes to drug cartels and to widespread corruption. In particular, Brazil could be a power house with their large populations, rich resources and attractive (and varied) tourist opportunities. However, corruption and wealth disparity are major issues. It is the result of a fiscally conservative "utopia" gone very wrong (strong influence in economic policy from the conservative Chicago School of Economics). It has been a real experiment in a nearly unfettered free market. Some serious money has been made but without regulation it is extremely concentrated and leaves many in poverty.

If the USA spent more resources influencing South America rather than the Middle East, I think a lot more progress and prosperity could be had. First of all, Central and South American culture is very similar to North America. We might be divided by a language barrier (though that has become less severe with each generation) but both are heavily influenced by Western culture and share common religious ancestry (in majority).

As for the drug cartels in Columbia and Venezuela, cockroaches flourish where you are not looking, particularly behind walls. A cooperative and proactive approach to dealing with cartels, either diplomatically or with force, plus a concerted effort to decriminalize and treat drug addiction would seem to have a higher chance of success.

Meth, the scourge of rural America. It doesn't cross borders, but it is infiltrating our cities. Having known several meth addicts, that is one nasty drug.
 
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I think america is on a road to readjustment (unsure if it good or bad) time will tell... The only thing I know is I was trained to adapted to any change. GOD BLESS THE AMERICA PEOPLE - AND FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD BLESS YOU TOO...
 
The barrier is mostly there already, and Trump won't replace it with a literal concrete wall.

a) it would cost an insane amount

b) it would be terrible for actually policing the border, as the agents couldn't see through it.

It's never been about effectiveness.

The border doesn't need a wall, a fence, or any border control at all. Trump will still spend billions building his wall because his constituency is stupid enough to think it matters and don't realize they'll foot the bill.

Cant you yanks just assasinate Trump?

Anyone can assassinate anyone, if they are willing to die in the attempt.

No one with any sense is going to go after Trump...the next seven people in line for the job are even worse.
 
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The Mayor of Berlin weighs in:

http://www.berlin.de/rbmskzl/aktuelles/pressemitteilungen/2017/pressemitteilung.555498.php

„Berlin, die Stadt der Teilung Europas, die Stadt der Freiheit Europas, kann nicht kommentarlos zusehen, wenn ein Land plant, eine neue Mauer zu errichten. Wir Berlinerinnen und Berliner wissen am besten, wieviel Leid eine durch Stacheldraht und Mauer zementierte Teilung eines ganzen Kontinents verursacht hat. Millionen Menschen sind durch diese Teilung die Lebenschancen genommen worden. Am Ende haben wir – das Volk – diese Teilung überwunden, und es gehört zu den Sternstunden des 20. Jahrhunderts, als am Brandenburger Tor, dem wichtigsten Symbol der Teilung, die Menschen die Mauer eroberten und sie dann Stück für Stück abgetragen haben. Das Brandenburger Tor steht für den Geist der Freiheit!“

Der Regierende Bürgermeister weiter: „Heute, am Beginn des 21. Jahrhunderts, dürfen wir es nicht einfach hinnehmen, wenn alle unsere historischen Erfahrungen von denjenigen über den Haufen geworfen werden, denen wir unsere Freiheit zum großen Teil verdanken, den Amerikanern. Ich appelliere an den Präsidenten der Vereinigten Staaten, diesen Irrweg von Abschottung und Ausgrenzung nicht zu gehen. Überall dort, wo heute noch solche Grenzen existieren, in Korea, auf Zypern, schaffen sie Unfreiheit und Leid. Ich rufe dem amerikanischen Präsidenten zu: Denken Sie an ihren Vorgänger Ronald Reagan. Erinnern Sie sich an seine Worte: ‚Tear down this wall.‘ Und deshalb sage ich: Dear Mr. President, don´t build this wall!“

From what I can follow it's quite a heartfelt message, talking of the pain the Berlin Wall once brought to his city, and he tries to appeal to the better nature of Trump.

Ohh for a better nature of Trump.
 
The Mayor of Berlin weighs in:

http://www.berlin.de/rbmskzl/aktuelles/pressemitteilungen/2017/pressemitteilung.555498.php



From what I can follow it's quite a heartfelt message, talking of the pain the Berlin Wall once brought to his city, and he tries to appeal to the better nature of Trump.

Ohh for a better nature of Trump.

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." Ezekiel 36:26
Well, I guess we can always pray.
Or prey.
 
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