Can we please buff trader ships?

[Crimson Kaim]

And I am a dedicated combat pilot requesting that.

It doesn't matter wheather it is a Lakon, ASP, Python or Conda. All trader ships are prey to basically anything, even these tiny annoying vipers (try to outrun me bro!).
There are reasons why nearly all traders hide in solo (and even there they get hunted down).
See, the Lakon T9 for example has a hull mass of around 1000T. For what exactly? Its hull strenght is lower than the Python's and this thing only has a hull mass of 350T.
So it stays a mystery. Where does this mass come from? It can't even mass lock a Python while being almost three times heavier. Still, no source for this hull mass.

This is ridiculous and I wouldn't trade in any of these Lakon ships if I didn't want to actually suicide somewhere.

The hull mass is probably (my guess) just design so they are not agile, have very low base shields and are just prey. I am not asking for some uber weaponary or the best hull tankers (well ... kind of I do, lol), but atleast SOME abilities to compete in combat would be nice for these poor traders.
While I myself hunt every kind of (enemy) player for various reasons (e.g. Powerplay or wanted), tarders have always been a pain to kill, not only for me.
My wingmate and me always 'play' with tarders (PvP ofcourse) for example "Let's see how many Plasma shots it can survive." or "Ramming only this time!".
It is a shame that this is even possible. Such a huge dominance is quite imbalanced.

In nature, prey would have some kind of protection, ATLEAST SOMETHING. For example safety in masses or good running abilities or they can hide but in ED, traders are a prey without ANY kind of self protection.
Ever tried to kit a trader ship (especially T-ships) for combat? Hah, fear the Sidewidners!

Long story short: Trader ships are the easiest prey in the galaxy. They have nothing to protect themselves.

My request is to buff them somehow. The easiest way (in my opinion) would be to give them a MASSIVE amount of hull since they already have a lot of hull mass for 'design' reasons. This would make the bulkheads on the traders a viable option. Additionally, they are not really in need for a shield gen since their hull would tank the main damage and gives them enough time to high wake out.
And since hull packs are additive, these wouldn't be a viable option ... leaving space for cargo racks.

Imagine a massive T9 ... and some PvPer would like to blow it up for the lulz. Hehe, the T9 wouldn't even care ... gets his hull scratched due to the laser-meta.



Alright! Let's give these tarders atleast a SINGLE CHANCE! Who is with me?

 

[Defacto]

I think things are pretty fair. Why would traders be more survivable than equally sized combat ships with stronger armor and shield emitters?

If we want to change the balance, I think that it would be better to take a look at things like system security responses and the bounty system.
Also, you can convoy, and you can hide, so I'm not sure what you're going on about there.

The Lakon is a lot more gigantic than the Python, it's not unreasonable that it has a lot more mass, especially when you consider that these ships are built for atmospheric flight.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Hmmmmm, I don't know about buffing them. As you eloquently said in another thread about interdictions, maybe piloting skills are the main factor here? Why buffing trader ships to the level of a combat ship anyway? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. If you want an armed trader, why not equipping an Anaconda appropriately?

 

[Ian Skippy]

Sorry, but I found it very hard to take your post seriously after the first sentence. Asps, Pythons and condas prey to everything?

For now I will assume you were being sarcastic...

 

[Woodwose]

Yes make the 'pirates' work for their jollys

 

[Fangwulf]

Back in my combat days, whenever I took down an L9 I felt they were destroyed far to easily for their size. Maybe not necessarily better protection against module targeting, but simply being able to take more damage for their sheer size. They are by no means supposed to be armored like combat ships, but cargo ships in general I feel should have significant hull over a giant piece of tin foil.

 

[CMDR LACEWING]

I wouldn't complain if the Ts would get an armour buff. Their armour values don't make sense.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I hesitantly agree trader ships need a buff. I think a 30% hull health buff (seriously, I kill so many trade ships on accident) and a 15% shields is fair against players. However my hesitation arises from, making npcs too easy. Balancing against players might make only npcs too easy.

 

[Bacalao]

I don't want them buffed necessarily, I think they are fine as is, I just want their stats to reflect what they actually are. Drop the hull mass down to a level that makes sense for that kind of armor (which would give them a very reasonable FSD boost, the best defense is to not be around after all), if that makes them too fast, drop their thrusters a class (also giving them more FSD range).
-
Logically, if I were going to design a ship to move vast quantities over short to middling distance, knowing I'd never really make it properly combat worthy, I'd give it just enough hull and a big enough shield gen to get out of any reasonable interdiction scenario alive, lots of cargo room and the biggest FSD I could fit so it could move those loads as fast as possible.
-
The logic in the lakon line of ships seems to be to take a multirole ship, throw off all the armor and replace it with lead bricks, especially around the cargo bays, put the cockpit in a great spot, but give it nothing to properly defend itself (gotta save mass for all those lead bricks), then drop the FSD a class (gotta give the pirates something to shoot at).
-
T-x ship needs 2 big cargo bays, 1 medium internal for shields, a big FSD, middling fuel tank and utility slots for booster/chaff/etc to stay alive, they aren't going to be killing anything they can't more easily run away from....but alas, like combat ships, traders are multiroles that just suck at two other roles.

 

[Vandaahl]

Can't make head nor tail of this. Traders can have enough protection if they want to.

Imagine a massive T9 ... and some PvPer would like to blow it up for the lulz. Hehe, the T9 wouldn't even care ... gets his hull scratched due to the laser-meta.

They (I have one) can use a Conda for that, thats the whole purpose of the thing. A T9 is just a compromise between more space and therefore less security. Whats wrong with causality?

 

[Andromalius]

Well, for starters not s single serious trader wants better combat abilities. What they want is either better escaping abilities or better tanking. (to evade, ok. )
Only the T7 I find is problematic: not fast, not a lot of cargo, expensive and a sitting duck.
T6 is an entry level ship and T9 can withstand some serious damage before an escape jump if kitted properly.
Asp is fine as a mechant/smuggler ship and the python and anaconda are more likely to skin the pirate alive while still keeping their interest as trade ships. (Outpost access for python, sheer load for anaconda)

 

[Commander Biscuit]

I'd like to see all ships brought more into line with each other. it's pretty poor right now when your only option is to run against certain ships. And a certain unnamed ship being the undisputed best ship. The meta for this game heavily subdues variability in ship choice and gameplay choice.

Can't make head nor tail of this. Traders can have enough protection if they want to. That they can choose between an A-spec'ed Conda and D-spec'ed T9 is irrelevant.

Conda being the solution to everything is kind of the lack of choice I'm talking about.

 

[Soliluna]

And I am a dedicated combat pilot requesting that.

It doesn't matter wheather it is a Lakon, ASP, Python or Conda. All tarder ships are prey to basically anything, even these tiny annoying vipers (try to outrun me bro!).
There are reasons why nearly all traders hide in solo (and even there they get hunted down).
See, the Lakon T9 for example has a hull mass of around 1000T. For what exactly? Its hull strenght is lower than the Python's and this thing only has a hull mass of 350T.
So it stays a mystery. Where does this mass come from? It can't even mass lock a Python while being almost three times heavier. Still, no source for this hull mass.

This is ridiculous and I wouldn't trade in any of these Lakon ships if I didn't want to actually suicide somewhere.

The hull mass is probably (my guess) just design so they are not agile, have very low base shields and are just prey. I am not asking for some uber weaponary or the best hull tankers, but atleast SOME abilities to compete in combat would be nice for these poor traders.
While I myself hunt every kind of (enemy) player for various reasons (e.g. Powerplay or wanted), tarders have always been a pain to kill, not only for me.
My wingmate and me always 'play' with tarders (PvP ofcourse) for example "Let's see how many Plasma shots it can survive." or "Ramming only this time!".
It is a shame that this is even possible. Such a huge dominance is quite imbalanced.

In nature, prey would have some kind of protection, ATLEAST SOMETHING. For example safety in masses or good running abilities or they can hide but in ED, traders are a prey without ANY kind of self protection.
Ever tried to kit a trader ship (especially T-ships) for combat? Hah, fear the Sidewidners!

Long story short: Trader ships are the easiest prey in the galaxy. They have nothing to protect themselves.

My request is to buff them somehow. The easiest way (in my opinion) would be to give them a MASSIVE amount of hull since they already have a lot of hull mass for 'design' reasons. This would make the bulkheads on the traders a viable option. Additionally, they are not really in need for a shield gen since their hull would tank the main damage and gives them enough time to high wake out.
And since hull packs are additive, these wouldn't be a viable option ... leaving space for cargo racks.

Imagine a massive T9 ... and some PvPer would like to blow it up for the lulz. Hehe, the T9 wouldn't even care ... gets his hull scratched due to the laser-meta.



Alright! Let's give these tarders atleast a SINGLE CHANCE! Who is with me?

I wish people would stop saying "nearly all" this and "majority" that, without any data or evidence that proves the assumption.

Honestly, even if you doubled their hull strength they are still not viable in combat - and therefore the plan is still to run. All this would do is increase their chances of successfully running.


I think the best method is to have the ability to hire NPC Wings. I don't know why this is not already in the game considering all the functionality is kinda there. I expected it to actually come in the Wings update and am very disappointed it didn't.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Well, for starters not s single serious trader wants better combat abilities. What they want is either better escaping abilities or better tanking. (to evade, ok. )
Only the T7 I find is problematic: not fast, not a lot of cargo, expensive and a sitting duck.
T6 is an entry level ship and T9 can withstand some serious damage before an escape jump if kitted properly.
Asp is fine as a mechant/smuggler ship and the python and anaconda are more likely to skin the pirate alive while still keeping their interest as trade ships. (Outpost access for python, sheer load for anaconda)

Not a trader, but this seems accurate. On paper at least, only the T7 looks pretty gimpy for the price range.

I agree that the best solution here is to put in the ability to hire NPC escorts, or a system to encourage more PC escorting, or let traders join an NPC convoy. Flat buffs don't really add anything to the game. Escorts and convoys would add quite a bit, both for merchants, pirates, and even just people passing through.

 

[Bacalao]

I wish people would stop saying "nearly all" this and "majority" that, without any data or evidence that proves the assumption.

Honestly, even if you doubled their hull strength they are still not viable in combat - and therefore the plan is still to run. All this would do is increase their chances of successfully running.


I think the best method is to have the ability to hire NPC Wings. I don't know why this is not already in the game considering all the functionality is kinda there. I expected it to actually come in the Wings update and am very disappointed it didn't.

Have you tried shooting out a T-x cargo hatch lately. It's nearly impossible, I always blow the ship, but I use gimbals and maybe that is the problem. Though I would think gimbals from less than 1km should be accurate enough to not decimate a 1000T hull before the hatch went, but apparently while the hatch is made of depleted uranium, the hull is made of soggy paper towels. I'd also think a 1000T hull shouldn't be mass locked by a 400T hull....

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Sorry, but I found it very hard to take your post seriously after the first sentence. Asps, Pythons and condas prey to everything?

For now I will assume you were being sarcastic...

Well, in their trader loadouts. Not a fully A spec combat Python ofcourse!

 

[hitorii]

I wish people would stop saying "nearly all" this and "majority" that, without any data or evidence that proves the assumption.

Honestly, even if you doubled their hull strength they are still not viable in combat - and therefore the plan is still to run. All this would do is increase their chances of successfully running.


I think the best method is to have the ability to hire NPC Wings. I don't know why this is not already in the game considering all the functionality is kinda there. I expected it to actually come in the Wings update and am very disappointed it didn't.

Do remember we are getting the ability to have a small ai ship which we can be ai controlled or we can control, and our main ship be ai controlled if need be, at some point. My concern would be that this would take up a lot of cargo space that it still may not be viable for traders, not enough info yet but we will see

 

[ComradeFresco]

Well, in their trader loadouts. Not a fully A spec combat Python ofcourse!

Well duh! Why the hell should a ship you've gutted its combat abilities for not be a huge target?
If you don't want to be vulnerable create a hybrid load-out where you can hold your own long enough to escape.

By this line of logic...
Can my vulture have a trade buff since its so underpowered?

 

[Crimson Kaim]

I wish people would stop saying "nearly all" this and "majority" that, without any data or evidence that proves the assumption.

Honestly, even if you doubled their hull strength they are still not viable in combat - and therefore the plan is still to run. All this would do is increase their chances of successfully running.

And that is acutally my goal.

Trader ships should be able to win a fight against some combat ship, but they should have more defensive capabilities in order to not get blown up below 10 seconds.

- - - Updated - - -

Do remember we are getting the ability to have a small ai ship which we can be ai controlled or we can control, and our main ship be ai controlled if need be, at some point. My concern would be that this would take up a lot of cargo space that it still may not be viable for traders, not enough info yet but we will see

And the Condor ... or basically anything smaller than a Cobra/Viper is simply not a threat to anything. Now I highly doubt we will get anything bigger than a condor tp carry around :/

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Well, in their trader loadouts. Not a fully A spec combat Python ofcourse!

Doesn't that just mean that people need to rethink their "trader loadouts"? They could equip themselves in many ships to trade and live. They instead choose to risk it all for greater profit. Don't remove that risk, that just takes out a lot of the fun of choosing loadouts.