what's the best way in your opinion to mix Casual and Hardcore gamers , and to make it taste good for both side ?
Proposal Discussion Casual and Hardcore gamers: cohabitation ?
- Thread starter Buffalo974
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I assume you mean players who only play for short periods vs. someone who will play all day/night?
I don't think you can separate them, that would be like suggesting that we segregate the world based on those who are employed and those who are not.
Certainly a player who has more time to play will progress faster, they will have more money, better reputations and a bigger ship(s) than the casual guy. But like the world, there is a place for everyone. While ED is oriented towards multiplayer, much of it's structure does cater to playing solo rather than having to play in a group. It's not like an MMO where you need to group to progress.
So trying to create a game to cater to both isn't really relevant to ED, each player will derive what they can with the time they have and there's no glass ceiling for the casual beyond those they self-impose.
I don't think you can separate them, that would be like suggesting that we segregate the world based on those who are employed and those who are not.
Certainly a player who has more time to play will progress faster, they will have more money, better reputations and a bigger ship(s) than the casual guy. But like the world, there is a place for everyone. While ED is oriented towards multiplayer, much of it's structure does cater to playing solo rather than having to play in a group. It's not like an MMO where you need to group to progress.
So trying to create a game to cater to both isn't really relevant to ED, each player will derive what they can with the time they have and there's no glass ceiling for the casual beyond those they self-impose.
For me, it's like life. Casual or hardcore players, each making its way into the vastness of the galaxy. No matter if some, progress faster than others. The objective of the game is not there
As an 8 years EVE player, that's actually one of the things I am intrigued most about that game... it's vastness. I think from all the games (EVE, SC) it will feel the most like, you know: Flying/living in the vastness of space.
So, I think, hardcore or casual will not be of much consequence, all in all...
So, I think, hardcore or casual will not be of much consequence, all in all...
Depends. Whats a casual, whats a hardcore player?
If it would be only time spend in game, well there'll be no objection to let them play alongside each other. Surely the galaxy is big enough lol .
If a casual player, say just plays for the fun of it and hc player for score, the win and kill, its all about damage for him, so called "competitive players", the later would go straight to the cheese builds, gaming the game not actually "playing" it (max damage&no skill, easy win).
Most certainly ruins the fun for every one else, although, he/she would not know it, ever for them selfs.
They are not interested in the game in itself, go take a look at EVE and MWO. E-Sports, of some sort.
edit
So there is no easy answer to the question. Most certainly a near perfect balancing would help though.
If it would be only time spend in game, well there'll be no objection to let them play alongside each other. Surely the galaxy is big enough lol .
If a casual player, say just plays for the fun of it and hc player for score, the win and kill, its all about damage for him, so called "competitive players", the later would go straight to the cheese builds, gaming the game not actually "playing" it (max damage&no skill, easy win).
Most certainly ruins the fun for every one else, although, he/she would not know it, ever for them selfs.
They are not interested in the game in itself, go take a look at EVE and MWO. E-Sports, of some sort.
edit
So there is no easy answer to the question. Most certainly a near perfect balancing would help though.
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Absolutely - yes
It’s all about immersion.
From what has been hinted at so far Elite Dangerous should easily cater for varying types of game play. The sandbox approach and attention to realism should guarantee that care-bears, casuals, sci-fi story-liners and point-counting hard core fighters should all find their niche in Elite.
Some games feel small, cramped, limited. They are throttled by a rigid storyline or restricted by a finite game space or even worse, restricted by an infinite game space with little variation.
In my case, I’m not really a gamer, I’m a sci-fi nut. I actually want to be in space, so I want the game to feel like I am in space. I like weapons and flying spaceships and blowing up enemies, but I would also like to skim the event horizon of a black hole and be amazed, ride the rapids as I try to outrun the shockwave of a supernova.
For me the game has to make sense. For instance, if I fly into an asteroid I expect to suffer some damage – if I shoot at something and there is an asteroid in the way I expect to miss the target, but in the 32nd century I also accept that my ship computer is clever enough to override a suicide attempt and I accept that weapons designers might make smart munitions which might take some autonomous decisions – i.e. avoid the asteroid. I also expect that the more I pay for a weapon the smarter it should be.
Small details make ALL the difference. You know, like a systems check before launch – approach vectors to space stations. One thing which always annoys me about space games – mining. Shoot a beam at an asteroid and suck in the ore? Seems a little simplistic to me, seems a little boring as well. Mining is reduced to drudgery, simply a credit making exercise. Why not use a fast scout to find the ore you are after, drop off a nano mining platform (builds itself along with an ore silo) – return later to your mining sites in a freighter and pick up your silos – much more plausible and no staring at a mining beam for hours on end.
Keep some mystery. The unknown generates excitement and anticipation that this time when you head out into the void something unexpected may happen. You may stumble upon a mysterious debris field and find a component for your ship not usually manufactured or available on the market – alien artefacts etc.
Humour and Dark Humour – there’s plenty of room for this. One masterful use of humour in a game has to be Portal – it transformed a clever puzzle game into a classic. Of course humour should be used sparingly and unexpectedly in Elite for maximum effect.
One thing I really, really like about Elite is the no levelling or ‘skills training’ concept. Sure, the longer you play the more credits you make and better equipment you can use, but to know that the ‘great skills divide’ prevalent in most games is absent from Elite is a huge plus – not that I won’t kick your ass anyway :smilie:
It’s all about immersion.
From what has been hinted at so far Elite Dangerous should easily cater for varying types of game play. The sandbox approach and attention to realism should guarantee that care-bears, casuals, sci-fi story-liners and point-counting hard core fighters should all find their niche in Elite.
Some games feel small, cramped, limited. They are throttled by a rigid storyline or restricted by a finite game space or even worse, restricted by an infinite game space with little variation.
In my case, I’m not really a gamer, I’m a sci-fi nut. I actually want to be in space, so I want the game to feel like I am in space. I like weapons and flying spaceships and blowing up enemies, but I would also like to skim the event horizon of a black hole and be amazed, ride the rapids as I try to outrun the shockwave of a supernova.
For me the game has to make sense. For instance, if I fly into an asteroid I expect to suffer some damage – if I shoot at something and there is an asteroid in the way I expect to miss the target, but in the 32nd century I also accept that my ship computer is clever enough to override a suicide attempt and I accept that weapons designers might make smart munitions which might take some autonomous decisions – i.e. avoid the asteroid. I also expect that the more I pay for a weapon the smarter it should be.
Small details make ALL the difference. You know, like a systems check before launch – approach vectors to space stations. One thing which always annoys me about space games – mining. Shoot a beam at an asteroid and suck in the ore? Seems a little simplistic to me, seems a little boring as well. Mining is reduced to drudgery, simply a credit making exercise. Why not use a fast scout to find the ore you are after, drop off a nano mining platform (builds itself along with an ore silo) – return later to your mining sites in a freighter and pick up your silos – much more plausible and no staring at a mining beam for hours on end.
Keep some mystery. The unknown generates excitement and anticipation that this time when you head out into the void something unexpected may happen. You may stumble upon a mysterious debris field and find a component for your ship not usually manufactured or available on the market – alien artefacts etc.
Humour and Dark Humour – there’s plenty of room for this. One masterful use of humour in a game has to be Portal – it transformed a clever puzzle game into a classic. Of course humour should be used sparingly and unexpectedly in Elite for maximum effect.
One thing I really, really like about Elite is the no levelling or ‘skills training’ concept. Sure, the longer you play the more credits you make and better equipment you can use, but to know that the ‘great skills divide’ prevalent in most games is absent from Elite is a huge plus – not that I won’t kick your ass anyway :smilie:
Jenner
I wish I was English like my hero Tj.
You've summed up nicely a lot of the reasons I'm really excited about this game! I've backed SC for my Star Wars fix and Elite for all the reasons you've said. I'm really hoping it delivers on the vast, mysterious, wondrous universe angle.
Me so am a scifi fan. But that more TV and movie. Wich is soft scifi. Wich means a lot fiction where science is buried under.
The fiction solves the fastbess off space to use a very practical high FTL speeds.
Also fiction takes gravity in a very practical way.
Because zero gravity is bad, yes you could command your military elite commandos to gravity train a hour or to. But civilians. Aren't that disaplined and become yellyfish humans with weak bird bones. So instead limit space ship design to continous rotating ship hulls.
A fictional flat deck gravity plate solution is oke by me.
Also handy if the ship needs to have a planet landing capability. Because this eat lot of energy. Some station do use the rotational gravity solution. Some very older classical ship could have this to. Most of them not able to land.
I prefere realism. I often think to use many more facets of realism to balance things out. But in fictional space setting you can twist and balanse relism with fiction.
Altho Elite scales the galacy right. Doesn't mean most games are smal.
If you seek fast pace combat like.
Cod quake UT tribes then the large Battfield conquest maps are to big. So what whole earth a overkill of space.
Well that is what elite offer wenn comparing with fps. Take FPS sandbox games like stalker farcry the first crysis. Its big enough.
Take ARMA3 the biggest sandbox capable FPS game. The whole earth is overkill.
In Startrek you got these galacy class ships for deep space exploring. Because its not normaly to find interesting stuff straight at the next star system so youmneed to have some huge FTL speed to get some where.
I think a game with this kind of focus on exploring deep space a galacy is the game world.
To make the game more fast pace to slow! FTL max speed would come to this.
Across the galacy in a day. Fast pace
Across the galacy in a month more sandbox
Across the galacy in a year more dense populated.
Instead of across you could take a have a round tripe trough the goldylock zone of the galacy. Because galacy core is steril due to extreem radiation and violent events there.
For high detailed hand crafted filled star systems they could go for gates or fast travel lanes. Keep de gamers within the star systems wich are designed and filled with lot of point of interrest. Game world assets.
So I don't need a full galacy as background. But its nice to have. or to explore to be mostly empty unless filled up and the ships FTL solution tackles the great distances of nothing and the sensor radar has a range to scan region off stars instead a region around a planet and itself.
On earth in reality it works like this.
US forces work globaly they use carriers as a mobile airbase. So got world wide reach.
For a FPS game on foot you start bigger with a jeep then heli transport. Then plane a C-130 to get your equipment jeep tank to the aktion zone.
The C-130 hecules just fill in the same fuction of a gate or jump drive in a space game.
Wich make me think a large carrier kind of ship that act as a gallacy class ferry.
A very long jump capable ship.
The fiction solves the fastbess off space to use a very practical high FTL speeds.
Also fiction takes gravity in a very practical way.
Because zero gravity is bad, yes you could command your military elite commandos to gravity train a hour or to. But civilians. Aren't that disaplined and become yellyfish humans with weak bird bones. So instead limit space ship design to continous rotating ship hulls.
A fictional flat deck gravity plate solution is oke by me.
Also handy if the ship needs to have a planet landing capability. Because this eat lot of energy. Some station do use the rotational gravity solution. Some very older classical ship could have this to. Most of them not able to land.
I prefere realism. I often think to use many more facets of realism to balance things out. But in fictional space setting you can twist and balanse relism with fiction.
Altho Elite scales the galacy right. Doesn't mean most games are smal.
If you seek fast pace combat like.
Cod quake UT tribes then the large Battfield conquest maps are to big. So what whole earth a overkill of space.
Well that is what elite offer wenn comparing with fps. Take FPS sandbox games like stalker farcry the first crysis. Its big enough.
Take ARMA3 the biggest sandbox capable FPS game. The whole earth is overkill.
In Startrek you got these galacy class ships for deep space exploring. Because its not normaly to find interesting stuff straight at the next star system so youmneed to have some huge FTL speed to get some where.
I think a game with this kind of focus on exploring deep space a galacy is the game world.
To make the game more fast pace to slow! FTL max speed would come to this.
Across the galacy in a day. Fast pace
Across the galacy in a month more sandbox
Across the galacy in a year more dense populated.
Instead of across you could take a have a round tripe trough the goldylock zone of the galacy. Because galacy core is steril due to extreem radiation and violent events there.
For high detailed hand crafted filled star systems they could go for gates or fast travel lanes. Keep de gamers within the star systems wich are designed and filled with lot of point of interrest. Game world assets.
So I don't need a full galacy as background. But its nice to have. or to explore to be mostly empty unless filled up and the ships FTL solution tackles the great distances of nothing and the sensor radar has a range to scan region off stars instead a region around a planet and itself.
On earth in reality it works like this.
US forces work globaly they use carriers as a mobile airbase. So got world wide reach.
For a FPS game on foot you start bigger with a jeep then heli transport. Then plane a C-130 to get your equipment jeep tank to the aktion zone.
The C-130 hecules just fill in the same fuction of a gate or jump drive in a space game.
Wich make me think a large carrier kind of ship that act as a gallacy class ferry.
A very long jump capable ship.
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This is actually a very important question. Important, for the longevity of the game.
My primary interest is (prop) combat flight sims. What I like about those sims in multiplayer is that you can choose how to play. You can go for full immersion and play safe: take your time to climb to altitude, carefully look for bogeys, maneuver and attack when you have the advantage. If things don't work out as planned you can convert altitude for speed and dive away to fight another day.
The other approach is to go directly to a furball and mix it in. Then it's all about dogfight skills and this is where the hardcore gamer will always win and can be very frustrating for the casual gamer. It is however valid gameplay and fun to do from time to time.
So it seems to be a matter of being able to set your own goals/immersion level and being able to choose your own approach. I'm hoping ED will allow for this, in fact that is exactly what I'm expecting.
A good example of the opposite: World of Tanks. You can't determine your 'immersion level' as it's not played in a sandbox but in an arena.
I was playing it as a casual player, just trying to have some quick fun in tanks. After while you realize that you regularly are encountering players that have played the game for two years, 25 hours per week, know exactly were to hit what spot on what tank, know which location on the map you are invisible, which add works best etc etc.
Couple this with the fact that WoT is quite addictive because you can get better equipment and better tanks and you want to achieve the goal you set. In the end you just feel very stupid for spending too much time on a game I have now come to hate. Getting blown to bits 10 times in a row just to get some extra points is not my idea of fun!
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Sorry about that!
(Played WoT quite a lot and I play all tiers 1 through to 10, inclusive)
No problem! I have a friend in my online squad who also plays on a very high level. He has a win rate of 70% or higher and I am deeply impressed when I see him play. But I, the casual player, have now quit playing it altogether.
I guess my main point is: casual players should be able to pick their own battles!
I guess my main point is: casual players should be able to pick their own battles!
Most games dont cater to casual and hardcore. So I expect that ED does not.
What tis means for dev. Wel from a commercial point of view casual and hardcore combined are a huge mass market. Doing well lead to huge selling games. But your game design must cater to both at the same time.
Wich means a hardcore gamer needs to find his rewarding play in the game. But very important also the casual. The game needs to be very accesable. And game mechanics not in a way that hardcore community drive away the casual.
Leveling unlocking and chalanges wich are easy to get with limited skill is fullfilling the reward. Unlocking leveling counter the to much loosing. So the casual come back to level and unlock. And more often keep playing.
A game who reach tis goal is COD.
More over you need a strong IP franchise thats well known by people.
Well I don't think Elite D falls under this kind off rare games.
First its IP is only know by older veteran often ex gamer.
The genre is not a massmarket
Accesable I do not think that it is .
So it is more a game aimed at specific group of gamers.
I think star citezen has more profile out there espacialy by the current gamer generations.
X-series has a very unwieldy UI wich casual are allergic to.
Also for casuals you need to set goals wich are reacable fast or you start with someting decent.
The problem with space game you start with crap. So light and not much cash.
These game you need to garther cash to get better stuff.
This is very bad for casual.
Because if you don't game much but a hour in two weeks. Then
Wenn you get your must have space ruling ship you are in need of 5 years.
Where a hardcore who play 4 times 4 hour a week wil do that in halve a year.
You want casual you need near end goal starter ships.
My thougths what do you need.
First a easy mode where AI is slower and bit limited.
First decent starter ships depending on what role you want to play.
The strongnpoint of cod is thatbyou starting guns are bery multipurpouse and allround and lethal . That why some gamers stick with one gun and its atributes becomes your second nature. While other unlock averything..
Also other ships arent often not that better but are more suitable for specific game style.
Depending on balans there pro and con atribute shift.
In cod you have some kind of leveling but it more ranking as status and prestige. But if does not give you extra power. So every body equal.
This mean me as prestige master could be blow away by a some one who just started COD.
There is also match making and save core system can asist to make it more casual friendly.
Also what would help is also the reward for killing a higher ranked gamer. Wenn a noob kill a ace. Then his reward is much higher.
So there is a lot can be done but to get to the casual you need every isue aimed at them other wise you they keep away.
Deving for casual its posible.
The big isue is getting the casual to notice your game.
What cod has is a huge marketing budged and a well know IP and a well known theme and a very accesable genre. These factors frontier cant compli to.
But then again there is a lot grey between casual and hardcore. Like me.
What tis means for dev. Wel from a commercial point of view casual and hardcore combined are a huge mass market. Doing well lead to huge selling games. But your game design must cater to both at the same time.
Wich means a hardcore gamer needs to find his rewarding play in the game. But very important also the casual. The game needs to be very accesable. And game mechanics not in a way that hardcore community drive away the casual.
Leveling unlocking and chalanges wich are easy to get with limited skill is fullfilling the reward. Unlocking leveling counter the to much loosing. So the casual come back to level and unlock. And more often keep playing.
A game who reach tis goal is COD.
More over you need a strong IP franchise thats well known by people.
Well I don't think Elite D falls under this kind off rare games.
First its IP is only know by older veteran often ex gamer.
The genre is not a massmarket
Accesable I do not think that it is .
So it is more a game aimed at specific group of gamers.
I think star citezen has more profile out there espacialy by the current gamer generations.
X-series has a very unwieldy UI wich casual are allergic to.
Also for casuals you need to set goals wich are reacable fast or you start with someting decent.
The problem with space game you start with crap. So light and not much cash.
These game you need to garther cash to get better stuff.
This is very bad for casual.
Because if you don't game much but a hour in two weeks. Then
Wenn you get your must have space ruling ship you are in need of 5 years.
Where a hardcore who play 4 times 4 hour a week wil do that in halve a year.
You want casual you need near end goal starter ships.
My thougths what do you need.
First a easy mode where AI is slower and bit limited.
First decent starter ships depending on what role you want to play.
The strongnpoint of cod is thatbyou starting guns are bery multipurpouse and allround and lethal . That why some gamers stick with one gun and its atributes becomes your second nature. While other unlock averything..
Also other ships arent often not that better but are more suitable for specific game style.
Depending on balans there pro and con atribute shift.
In cod you have some kind of leveling but it more ranking as status and prestige. But if does not give you extra power. So every body equal.
This mean me as prestige master could be blow away by a some one who just started COD.
There is also match making and save core system can asist to make it more casual friendly.
Also what would help is also the reward for killing a higher ranked gamer. Wenn a noob kill a ace. Then his reward is much higher.
So there is a lot can be done but to get to the casual you need every isue aimed at them other wise you they keep away.
Deving for casual its posible.
The big isue is getting the casual to notice your game.
What cod has is a huge marketing budged and a well know IP and a well known theme and a very accesable genre. These factors frontier cant compli to.
But then again there is a lot grey between casual and hardcore. Like me.
Great ideas!