Yep, I just logged back in after 2 years thinking "Hey let's go shoot some NPCs in a Compromized NAVB!!" Went in there with my Gunboat and got my %$@$%@ handed to me. This was my best ship fully Enigneered to kick but. Even at my worst I was always able to shoot the pirate npc's the bigger ships were shooting at, and at least get some $$$. Now it's just 20 Pirates against a loan T9 and never any good guys fighting or helping out. Logged off.....
Combat is too tough?
- Thread starter Ningauble
- Start date
Combat NPCs have become on average harder and more random.
I still run over Deadly/Elite Condas which I can melt in 30s and then others which tank and can take 2 minutes.
Before they were way too weak. Much better now.
However is sometimes difficult now in lower DPS builds and most likely will be almost impossible in unengineered builds.
Main challenge with lower DPS is that they low or high wake before you can take them fully down.
Bottom line I like it.
I still run over Deadly/Elite Condas which I can melt in 30s and then others which tank and can take 2 minutes.
Before they were way too weak. Much better now.
However is sometimes difficult now in lower DPS builds and most likely will be almost impossible in unengineered builds.
Main challenge with lower DPS is that they low or high wake before you can take them fully down.
Bottom line I like it.
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The Viper Mk.IV isn't the best early game combat ship but here's what I'd recommend for someone who I assume has limited funds:
https://s.orbis.zone/1Pcz
Allocate beam lasers to one fire group, and multicannons to the other and use lasers exclusively for shielding and multicannons exclusively for hull.
A Viper Mk.III is less than half the price and offers the same firepower but trades shield strength for agility, and agility is better when you're a learner, since the only way to get better at combat is to avoid getting shot by practising with your lateral thrusters. The better they work, the faster you'll learn.
https://s.orbis.zone/1Pd6
If you get good at aiming, consider swapping out the gimbaled multicannons for fixed railguns.
When you have more money, consider buying a Vulture as the next step on the ladder for combat, and consider buying an Asp Explorer for everything non-combat. It's one of the best early-game ships and although it's not great at combat, it'll match the viper whilst being capable of much more.
https://s.orbis.zone/1Pcz
Allocate beam lasers to one fire group, and multicannons to the other and use lasers exclusively for shielding and multicannons exclusively for hull.
A Viper Mk.III is less than half the price and offers the same firepower but trades shield strength for agility, and agility is better when you're a learner, since the only way to get better at combat is to avoid getting shot by practising with your lateral thrusters. The better they work, the faster you'll learn.
https://s.orbis.zone/1Pd6
If you get good at aiming, consider swapping out the gimbaled multicannons for fixed railguns.
When you have more money, consider buying a Vulture as the next step on the ladder for combat, and consider buying an Asp Explorer for everything non-combat. It's one of the best early-game ships and although it's not great at combat, it'll match the viper whilst being capable of much more.
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That's a good first half of the answer. As most players pull up into the target when they have the choice, using gimbaled MCs on the upper hardpoints is of an advantage, as they then can stay on target longer.
There's another aspect, though: NPCs don't usually fly engineered to maximum resists. So NPCs usually still have the old split: shields are vulnerable to thermal (e.g. lasers) while hull is vulnerable to kinetic and explosive. At the same time, you have to look at weapon size vs. hull hardness. The bigger the weapon, the better the penetration value. Before i go into detail, first the rough outline: the better the penetration value, the better the weapon performs against hull.
So it means:
- Shields do not have hardness. No matter if your weapon is small, medium or even bigger, damage is only modified by pips and resists. As default or only slightly engineered shields (which many NPCs still use) have negative resists to thermal and high resists to kinetic, small lasers still do a comparatively good job on those while multicannons can wear them down, but at rather high ammo costs.
- Hull has hardness and by default rather high thermal resist. (Different kinds of armour and engineering can switch that around. But many NPCs still run with normal hull. ) So if you use medium lasers and small multicannons, both of them suffer from significant damage reduction. If you use small lasers and medium multicannons, the lasers damage indeed is reduced even more. But the multicannons perform much better. So in total, it's the much more powerful combination.
Mind you, that's all still simplified and there are some grand generalisations in what i wrote. A lot more aspects can be considered. But it should suffice as a rough outline.
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Thank you for all the replies guys.
The problem here is not with my gaming skills, I am a newbie in Elite: Dangerous, not in gaming
I've been playing all kinds of simulations since C64 and Amiga 500.
Sometimes I can't even turn 180 degrees before they vaporize me and they are between range 160.000-200.000 pirate lords.
So it's not really a matter of getting gud here, the issue is the latest gaming mechanics are designed to lead players towards engineers, obviously.
I'll pour some money in some gun combinations and thruster/shield upgrades mentioned here and seek the gun engineer.
Cheers.
The problem here is not with my gaming skills, I am a newbie in Elite: Dangerous, not in gaming
I've been playing all kinds of simulations since C64 and Amiga 500.Sometimes I can't even turn 180 degrees before they vaporize me and they are between range 160.000-200.000 pirate lords.
So it's not really a matter of getting gud here, the issue is the latest gaming mechanics are designed to lead players towards engineers, obviously.
I'll pour some money in some gun combinations and thruster/shield upgrades mentioned here and seek the gun engineer.
Cheers.
Engaging takes 10 seconds, I'm vaporized before that?
Better and engineered FSDrive or is there a trick?
Uh, no. That's a trap. I mean, it's absolutely true that engineering is huge. It's a massive advantage in both offense and defense. It's way out of whack and by all means should get beaten to hell and back and for the sake of the game and it's health take some massive nerfing. But it's not the solution when you have problems with combat.
Whenever there's a new ship around, i first pick up the ship in non-engineered state. I put it through a number of personal tests. One of them is to go to RES and pick fights against targets of different sized and rank. So yes, any new ship which comes around ends up facing a number of elite ranked NPCs in ships of different sizes.
Last time i did this was when the Mamba and Krait Phantom were added, so not so long ago. (There were only minor bugfix patches since then. ) Usually i win those fights, only sometimes, when the ship doesn't suit my style, i mess up or try to bite off too much, i had to retreat. But i never yet lost a ship during one of those test runs.
So yes, non-engineered ships are at a massive disadvantage against engineered ships. High ranked (dangerous, deadly and elite) ranked NPCs do field a lot of engineered components. Fighting those in a non-engineered ships is no walk in the park.
But even now NPCs of lower ranks have little to no engineering done. If you struggle against those, the problem is not in engineering. You're fighting them on a level field. Your ship setup by itself, engineering or not, might be suboptimal. Also, while you say you are an experienced gamer, you're not a veteran of this game. So really, some training there might be necessary. There's a lot of tricks and quirks in this games flight model, damage calculation and other mechanics, which are rather obscure. Sometimes they even work contrary to all logic. A number of mechanics of this game are badly explained or completely hidden.
Thus i dare to say that this is where you actually should look at: learning all the hidden things of the game. It has a steep learning curve and it often is not intuitive. Some things which you bring along from other games and are of advantage there, turn out to be a disadvantage in this game.
It sure is easier to just engineer a ship. If your ship is just leagues above and beyond what NPCs fly, you sure can perform well. But it's really just a crutch and i'd advise to work your knowledge of the game instead.
Edit: Ah! Now i get it. This part gives it away, when i pay enough attention:
You are running assassination missions? That's not the right place to start for learning combat and bounty hunting. I mean yes, the game leads you to those. But quite often you end up fighting a wing of enemies, which indeed results in quick destruction of a small and non-engineered ship. It's again one of the things which are not that obvious.
I rather advise to first go to your local nav beacon. Make sure that it is a normal nav beacon. If it says that it's compromised, go to another system and check the nav beacon there.
At this normal nav beacon, cruise around. Scan all ships you see. Look for those which are marked, are not in a wing and don't have a too high pilot rating. Start taking those down. As you are in a normal nav beacon, police might also be present and assist you, making the kills even easier.
Once you are confident enough with the nav beacon enemies (should be soon enough), you can move on to RES, wich means Ressource Extraction Sites. Those can be found at many planets with rings. At the start, avoid Hazardous Ressource Extraction Sites. Enter the other kind, again fly around, rack up kills.
Once familiar with that, you can try to go for the Hazardour Ressource Extraction Sites or Compromised Nav Beacons. There will be no police there to help you out, while you can expect to meet much harder enemies, bigger ships and higher rating (and thus some engineering done to their ships). On the positive, the bounties on them also are much higher, so the income is better.
And yes, all of that feels a bit more like policing than hunting a bounty. But it's how you really get some good combat time and thus practice. Once you're a bit more familiar with the game and the quirks of its flight model, you then can also look into assassination missions.
I hope this helps.
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Here's a quick guide on it, for ordinary combat ignore the bits about interdiction :
Do this
Submit to the interdiction, your cool-down is faster
As soon as you drop out of super-cruise max pips to engines 2 to shields (other way in a slow heavy shield ship)
Start boosting at full throttle away from the hostile (or back past it if it's a less maneuverable ship than yours)
Spam chaff
Select a nearby system and start your jump (high wake isn't mass locked)
Evade whilst boosting until you jump
Once you've jumped drop out of super-cruise select another nearby star and jump again (repeat if necessary)
Return to desired course
Do not
Waste time wondering who he is or what he wants (interdiction is hostile)
Waste time wondering who he is or what he wants (interdiction is hostile)
Waste time talking
Fly without shields
Combat log
Combat log
Thank you for all the replies guys.
The problem here is not with my gaming skills, I am a newbie in Elite: Dangerous, not in gaming
Sometimes I can't even turn 180 degrees before they vaporize me and they are between range 160.000-200.000 pirate lords.
So it's not really a matter of getting gud here, the issue is the latest gaming mechanics are designed to lead players towards engineers, obviously.
I'll pour some money in some gun combinations and thruster/shield upgrades mentioned here and seek the gun engineer.
Cheers.
Viper mk4 is kind of slow on turning. Maybe you would like to consider more agile ship.
You do not need to do solo kills, group up with npcs in hires, navbeacons.
My viper mk3's weapons for hires:
- class 1 fixed cannon with dispersal field
- 2 x class 2 mc, incendiary and corrosive, both high capacity
- class 1 focused somelaser turret with thermal shock, mostly to steal kills from long distance.
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Some suggestions:
Outfitting: A-rate everything you can, especially thrusters, powerplant and distributor. For weapons, I'd suggest a mix of gimballed pulse lasers (quicker to bring down shields) and multicannon (better for hull, and have low distributor draw). On your utility slots, I'd suggest adding a couple of shield boosters.
Engineering: Visit Deciat and upgrade your FSD (general advice), dirty drives to grade 3 (grade 5 is better, but takes MUCH longer to get access to them), and upgrade your powerplant to ensure you have enough power for the boosters etc. It helps a lot if you Engineer your weapons, an easy (though non-optimal) approach is to add the Efficient mod to your weapons. They'll do slightly more damage, but at much lower power draw, meaning you can fire almost constantly even with just 1 or two pips to weapons.
Tactics:
- Ensure "report crimes against me" is on, so if attacked you get help from System Authority ships.
- Don't fight in Anarchy systems, nor in Compromised Nav Beacons or Hazardous Resource Extraction Zones.
- Pick a normal Nav Beacon as it's the least chaotic and you won't plough into a big rock, as you get better, try Low Resource Extraction Zones... then medium... then progress to Combat Zones.
- Don't carry any cargo that pirates will attack you for.
- Be wary of Elite/Deadly/Dangerous opponents; and especially the tougher ships (in a RES, the toughest will typically be probably Anacondas, Pythons and Gunships).
- If there are lots of System Authority ships around, then all you need to do is fire a few shots at the pirate, then back off while the police handle it. Once the pirate's shields come down and its hull is low, re-engage and fire the last few shots, and you get the full bounty.
- With the above outfitting, you can probably get away with 3 pips to System (i.e. shields) and 1.5 to Engines and Weapons.
- If you're being attacked by multiple ships simultaneously, run, then re-engage when they've lost interest.
- If your shields go down, run, and wait for them to come back up. Turn off your shield boosters (if you have any) and your shield will come back online quicker, then reactivate them.
- If having problems finding pirates, keep checking the Contacts tabs for NPC names (as opposed to ship types). E.g. "Imperial Courier" changes to "Graybeard" when a pirate NPC scans you for cargo. So if you see an NPC name in your contacts, it's probably a pirate - select them in Contacts and if you have no faction or other info there, you know they're a pirate before targeting and scanning them.
- If you see a pirate approach and scan you, wait until they turn away, then fire at them from the rear from point-black range. This gives you several of seconds of high-damage before they can turn and engage you.
- You can generally tell which ships in a RES will be pirates anyway, based on ship types. You'll rarely see mining Eagles, Couriers, Gunships, Dropships or Clippers, so if you see these they're almost certainly pirates.
Outfitting: A-rate everything you can, especially thrusters, powerplant and distributor. For weapons, I'd suggest a mix of gimballed pulse lasers (quicker to bring down shields) and multicannon (better for hull, and have low distributor draw). On your utility slots, I'd suggest adding a couple of shield boosters.
Engineering: Visit Deciat and upgrade your FSD (general advice), dirty drives to grade 3 (grade 5 is better, but takes MUCH longer to get access to them), and upgrade your powerplant to ensure you have enough power for the boosters etc. It helps a lot if you Engineer your weapons, an easy (though non-optimal) approach is to add the Efficient mod to your weapons. They'll do slightly more damage, but at much lower power draw, meaning you can fire almost constantly even with just 1 or two pips to weapons.
Tactics:
- Ensure "report crimes against me" is on, so if attacked you get help from System Authority ships.
- Don't fight in Anarchy systems, nor in Compromised Nav Beacons or Hazardous Resource Extraction Zones.
- Pick a normal Nav Beacon as it's the least chaotic and you won't plough into a big rock, as you get better, try Low Resource Extraction Zones... then medium... then progress to Combat Zones.
- Don't carry any cargo that pirates will attack you for.
- Be wary of Elite/Deadly/Dangerous opponents; and especially the tougher ships (in a RES, the toughest will typically be probably Anacondas, Pythons and Gunships).
- If there are lots of System Authority ships around, then all you need to do is fire a few shots at the pirate, then back off while the police handle it. Once the pirate's shields come down and its hull is low, re-engage and fire the last few shots, and you get the full bounty.
- With the above outfitting, you can probably get away with 3 pips to System (i.e. shields) and 1.5 to Engines and Weapons.
- If you're being attacked by multiple ships simultaneously, run, then re-engage when they've lost interest.
- If your shields go down, run, and wait for them to come back up. Turn off your shield boosters (if you have any) and your shield will come back online quicker, then reactivate them.
- If having problems finding pirates, keep checking the Contacts tabs for NPC names (as opposed to ship types). E.g. "Imperial Courier" changes to "Graybeard" when a pirate NPC scans you for cargo. So if you see an NPC name in your contacts, it's probably a pirate - select them in Contacts and if you have no faction or other info there, you know they're a pirate before targeting and scanning them.
- If you see a pirate approach and scan you, wait until they turn away, then fire at them from the rear from point-black range. This gives you several of seconds of high-damage before they can turn and engage you.
- You can generally tell which ships in a RES will be pirates anyway, based on ship types. You'll rarely see mining Eagles, Couriers, Gunships, Dropships or Clippers, so if you see these they're almost certainly pirates.
I think you mentioned above too about switching to a Python?
Don't. It's a fantastic all-round ship, for mission running, cargo hauling, mining etc. But it's a poor choice for bounty hunting. It's expensive (for a starter) to buy, and very expensive to A-rate. It's expensive to replace if destroyed (important!). It's not the most agile (though it's fine once fully engineered).
I'd recommend the Chieftain as a much cheaper and better suited option. The Assault Ship is similar, but more expensive, and rank-locked. The Chieftain is agile, fast, has lots of hardpoint options. It's loads of fun to fly.
If that's still too expensive, then probably try a Vulture or Imperial Courier. The Vulture is fun, but a bit basic. It just has two big hardpoints, is slow but very agile. So it's a very simple "turn & DAKKA-DAKKA-DAKKA" kinda ship. Can't really comment on the Courier as I've never flown it.
Don't. It's a fantastic all-round ship, for mission running, cargo hauling, mining etc. But it's a poor choice for bounty hunting. It's expensive (for a starter) to buy, and very expensive to A-rate. It's expensive to replace if destroyed (important!). It's not the most agile (though it's fine once fully engineered).
I'd recommend the Chieftain as a much cheaper and better suited option. The Assault Ship is similar, but more expensive, and rank-locked. The Chieftain is agile, fast, has lots of hardpoint options. It's loads of fun to fly.
If that's still too expensive, then probably try a Vulture or Imperial Courier. The Vulture is fun, but a bit basic. It just has two big hardpoints, is slow but very agile. So it's a very simple "turn & DAKKA-DAKKA-DAKKA" kinda ship.
Can't really comment on the Courier as I've never flown it.
Bounty Hunter Wing. Look for players and ask them to wing up with you. It's a lot easyer if you are not flying alone.
Now bear in mind I'm talking viper III here rather than the IV, as the viper III is my small ship of choice when I want to go out for a laugh (and a small rebuy), but the principles remain the same
Choose your fight.... oh look an elite anaconda with a 400 000 bounty... beam weapons and a fighter bay... that should be a complete no no as you're unlikely to be able to even dent its hull before floating home in an escape pod, rather pick that dangerous cobra 3 thats hassling a miner as the miner will join in blowing it to bit
Dont be afraid to experiment with weapons.... I run 4 gimballed multicannons with overcharge/incindary ammo).. can be tough getting the sheild down.. once down though... dakka dakka oops wheres your hull gone time
Thrusters..... you like running away I presume? biggest ones you can fit.... then engineer them so they give you more thrust.
Armor.. I'd go military composite everytime
throw on a chaff as most NPCs seem to use turrets/gimballs
But the most important thing to master is what goes on in your own head... fly to that CZ/RES with the attitude "I'm already dead.... how many of them can I take with me"
Remember ... learn from your mistakes, watch the scanner, check your status, keep an eye on your heat level... and for gawd's sake Never fly straight and level in a combat zone [squeeeee]
Learning these lessons now in a smaller ship will make flying a bigger ship all the easier.... and cheaper too
Bill
Choose your fight.... oh look an elite anaconda with a 400 000 bounty... beam weapons and a fighter bay... that should be a complete no no as you're unlikely to be able to even dent its hull before floating home in an escape pod, rather pick that dangerous cobra 3 thats hassling a miner as the miner will join in blowing it to bit
Dont be afraid to experiment with weapons.... I run 4 gimballed multicannons with overcharge/incindary ammo).. can be tough getting the sheild down.. once down though... dakka dakka oops wheres your hull gone time
Thrusters..... you like running away I presume? biggest ones you can fit.... then engineer them so they give you more thrust.
Armor.. I'd go military composite everytime
throw on a chaff as most NPCs seem to use turrets/gimballs
But the most important thing to master is what goes on in your own head... fly to that CZ/RES with the attitude "I'm already dead.... how many of them can I take with me"
Remember ... learn from your mistakes, watch the scanner, check your status, keep an eye on your heat level... and for gawd's sake Never fly straight and level in a combat zone [squeeeee]
Learning these lessons now in a smaller ship will make flying a bigger ship all the easier.... and cheaper too
Bill
Report:
-Thrusters and power plant upgraded. Maneuver ability has gone up considerably.
-Two med slots are multi cannon'ed, both same fire group.
-Two small slots are laser'ed, same group.
At least %25 percent higher efficiency.
Will try to do a few navy missions to try them more.
Next step: Upgrade thrusters even more, upgrade shields and put military hull plating.
Chaff is hard to use though, changing modules in the middle of the fight is not quick enough.
-Thrusters and power plant upgraded. Maneuver ability has gone up considerably.
-Two med slots are multi cannon'ed, both same fire group.
-Two small slots are laser'ed, same group.
At least %25 percent higher efficiency.
Will try to do a few navy missions to try them more.
Next step: Upgrade thrusters even more, upgrade shields and put military hull plating.
Chaff is hard to use though, changing modules in the middle of the fight is not quick enough.
On the military hull plating: careful there. While it makes your hull more durable, it also is heavy. It will reduce your agility again. Try both options, most people prefer the lighter ship.
On chaff: don't use it on a fire group. You can bind a button to that, then you can use it whenever you need it, without switching around.
I have a feeling a lot has already been said, but I'd just like to note: I've never seen any NPCs using engineering mods in RES. The high-ranking NPCs might be sporting good setups (SCBs, good shields, armour, etc), but I've never seen them use weird weapon types. Supposedly the Combat Zones have engineered ship NPCs, but I haven't yet had a reason to visit one.
As such, I wouldn't expect a low-ranking player to fight engineered NPCs at all, unless they are very foolish and blindly go to a CZ.
So, in general, when starting out I'd suggest going to a Nav Beacon and hunting pirates there. Said pirates should be relatively small AND there's bound to be police there (assuming you're not in an anarchy system), which are always a boon when starting out (if you can get a few shots in before the police forces blow up the criminal, you'll get the bounty). Otherwise it's a great place to learn the ins and outs of combat, especially against equally small opponents.
As for setup - multicannons and lasers are the norm. Depending on your skill level, you can go with fixed lasers and gimbals for MCs if you feel you can aim the lasers, or full gimbals if you feel you need the help. It's good practice to fight with fixed. A-rated shields, thrusters and the power distributor are a good basis for a combat build ship. Obviously a power plant to match the requirements (does NOT need to be A-rated out of the gate; if you're short on cash but want that combat setup, the power plant just needs to be "big enough" - yes, there are benefits to having more power than you need, but in small ships it's not likely going to matter).
As such, I wouldn't expect a low-ranking player to fight engineered NPCs at all, unless they are very foolish and blindly go to a CZ.
So, in general, when starting out I'd suggest going to a Nav Beacon and hunting pirates there. Said pirates should be relatively small AND there's bound to be police there (assuming you're not in an anarchy system), which are always a boon when starting out (if you can get a few shots in before the police forces blow up the criminal, you'll get the bounty). Otherwise it's a great place to learn the ins and outs of combat, especially against equally small opponents.
As for setup - multicannons and lasers are the norm. Depending on your skill level, you can go with fixed lasers and gimbals for MCs if you feel you can aim the lasers, or full gimbals if you feel you need the help. It's good practice to fight with fixed. A-rated shields, thrusters and the power distributor are a good basis for a combat build ship. Obviously a power plant to match the requirements (does NOT need to be A-rated out of the gate; if you're short on cash but want that combat setup, the power plant just needs to be "big enough" - yes, there are benefits to having more power than you need, but in small ships it's not likely going to matter).
Set a quick key for chaff in control config I use 5 so its right next to my heatsink/shield cell.
You don't need special armour at all if you buff your shields and run before things go wrong, it drops your maneuverability/speed and raises your rebuy. Its a purely personal thing but I never bother with it, I just engineer the basic armour to G5 and do a Sir Robin before my shields drop. Hull damage is for mugs. YMMV.