Combat Loggers... how many are there!!!! What kind of punishment do they receive and when?

[Fendalton]

The Cringe in this thread is strong.

Combat logging is an exploit, it's in the same category as relogging 10 times at a station to stack missions.

 

[Moardak]

The Insurance is fine. It's gives players a choice on whether to risk it all, generally through lack of patience, or to take a more planned and careful route.
If a player combat logs to avoid the insurance costs, they are cheating and it not hard to make sure you have that little bit put to the side to cover such things.
Oh, and the classic: "if you're "grinding", you're not doing it right".

Players who log are dumbing the game down for themselves and deny themselves any form of risk / reward gameplay. Then, and this is the best bit, some come on the forums and say the game is a grind, yet...it is they themselves who have forced it upon themselves.

I dunno when some elements of humanity stopped "playing" games but please don't force the rest of us into simple minded, one-dimensional gameplay.
Thanks.

Side note:
If they can make high security systems actually high security then a lot of the traders will probably be a lot happier. However, when it comes to PvP, it always seems to bring out the worst in players and I can't see that changing any time soon, sadly.
Happens in all games.

I think this is the point most people on here that support combat logging are trying to make. Right now there are almost no consequences for players that enjoy griefing others. They get a tiny bounty that's only of consequence in that particular system. Then all these griefers come on here and complain about their targets "not facing the consequences" by combat logging, when they themselves almost never face any consequences for their completely anti-social and pointless actions. This is especially true for griefers that wing up together. Before Frontier worries about fixing combat logging, they first need to worry about fixing griefing behavior by actually making it have real consequences. For starters, players that kill other "clean" players need to be clearly marked for doing so (distinct from just being "wanted"), galaxy wide, for a certain time duration, and the bounty placed on them for it needs to be much much larger than the current bounties you get for killing NPCs. At least this way it would be easier for other players to play an anti-griefer role by hunting down and killing griefers. They should also increase the NPC security response against players that are in the griefer state.

 

[Ari Ben Zayn]

and the bounty placed on them for it needs to be much much larger than the current bounties you get for killing NPCs. At least this way it would be easier for other players to play an anti-griefer role by hunting down and killing griefers.

We had this in earlier Elite versions, bounties became limited to 1 mio credits afterwards. Today they'd just keep on ganking and have one of their buddies off them in a freewinder to get major $$$.

That'd actually be the best of both worlds for them then

Massively increasing NPC reaction would help there, though.

 

[Kaerakh]

I think this is the point most people on here that support combat logging are trying to make. Right now there are almost no consequences for players that enjoy griefing others.

I believe Frontier has stated that griefing is against the rules and has defined greifing already. Unless if you mean something that falls outside of that definition, in which case it isn't greifing and you're just making a shameless emotional appeal rather than an argument. (No not that kind silly)

They get a tiny bounty that's only of consequence in that particular system. Then all these griefers...

Ah, see called it.

...come on here and complain about their targets "not facing the consequences" by combat logging, when they themselves almost never face any consequences for their completely anti-social and pointless actions.

I would love it if they would try to kill me. They just don't(or rather they didn't I have not logged into the game in quite some time). The only reason there aren't any consequences is because no one has tried to impose any on me. Guess what, you could group up with some buddies and do the same thing to me or just look less appealing as a target(Or more so depending on the player), and be, dare I say it, social. And just to counter that character assassination you have there, PVPers are quite often extremely social. There's a game where over 30,000 of them congregate together in a single virtual nation to work together towards common goals. Ironically, the players that shun PVP almost never work together when thrown into the same environment, or if they do so it's in a very limited and small scale fashion.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that I'm a very mediocre pilot. One of the very few times someone fought back against me I was in a viper and he was in an eagle. The guy whooped my (Preemptively self censoring because apparently my butt is too much for people). It was honestly one of the funnest fights I had.

This is especially true for griefers...

That name calling yo.

...that wing up together. Before Frontier worries about fixing combat logging, they first need to worry about fixing griefing behavior by actually making it have real consequences.

Like what? There are modes for people to play in consequence free. Use them.

For starters, players that kill other "clean" players need to be clearly marked for doing so (distinct from just being "wanted"), galaxy wide, for a certain time duration, and the bounty placed on them for it needs to be much much larger than the current bounties you get for killing NPCs. At least this way it would be easier for other players to play an anti-griefer role by hunting down and killing griefers. They should also increase the NPC security response against players that are in the griefer state.

You'll find that in every example of online gaming this doesn't work, either no one joins said 'anti-griefer' squad or it's heavily exploited.

 

[Moardak]

We had this in earlier Elite versions, bounties became limited to 1 mio credits afterwards. Today they'd just keep on ganking and have one of their buddies off them in a freewinder to get major $$$.

That'd actually be the best of both worlds for them then

Massively increasing NPC reaction would help there, though.

Good point about the killing in a freewider. This is something I think they need to fix for all bounties. If you die with a bounty on your head, they should add the bounty cost to your rebuy. For normal bounties this should just be in system, but for griefer bounties it should be galaxy wide. Also make it not possible to claim griefer bounties by players also in the griefer state.

Anyways, besides "griefer bounties" being larger, just being clearly marked as a griefer would go a long way to stymie that sort of behavior.

 

[EddyRockSteady]

I think you're being a little overly optimistic there. Squeaky wheels, and all that. ED might not have started out as a PVP-centric game, but the PVP voices are loud, and they're persistent. How many threads on this issue have there been now? There are at least two currently running.

This is the primary issue ED faces. Everything else - everything - takes a back seat in comparison to this. How do FD integrate two entirely opposing gamer philosophies into a game that wants to cater equally to both of them in a single gameworld?

I personally don't believe they can, and that sooner or later a firm decision is going to have to be made. And that decision will favour PVP, because that's already the way the game's leaning.

On the contrary, PvP's days are numbered. Diarize this conversation for a year or two from now and see. The fact that the game is leaning towards PvP just highlights the atrocious shortcomings that the game labours under at present. A firm decision will indeed be made and fixes implemented. Those fixed will no doubt begin with a halfway decent crime and consequence system. Then again, who knows. I can hope.

 

[Roland2]

The Cringe in this thread is strong.

Combat logging is an exploit, it's in the same category as relogging 10 times at a station to stack missions.

Exactly. Yet people want a ban for doing it. Possibly the same people who made millions using one exploit or another.

I personally see nothing wrong with combat logging if it doesn't mess up the Peer to Peer networking. If I remember correctly, Mr. Braben himself has stated that if a pilot escapes death, the person remaining should still consider it a victory. You made them run, you won.

 

[Sundae]

What is even griefing?

 

[EddyRockSteady]

What is even griefing?

In the absence of an official FD definition pertaining to Elite Dangerous, absolutely anything you want it to be.

For example, all these logging-moan threads are griefing my senses.........I mean, there's an in-game report function: Use it and save the forums!

 

[Asp Explorer]

What is even griefing?

When all the odd numbers gang up on them

 

[Moardak]

Kaerakh, I can't tell if you're just misunderstanding me and assuming I think all PvP is griefing (which I don't think that at all), or if you really are a griefer and are sore about being called out on it.

If you really are against more severe consequences for griefing behavior yet you're still crying about others avoiding consequences then you're just being a hypocrite.

Also maybe you could tell me how a trader in an unarmed trading vessel is going to fight back against a wing of battle ready pirates?

 

[Kaerakh]

What is even griefing?

This is the only quote I could come up with:

Bearing in mind Elite: Dangerous is being constructed from the ground up to support online play we think that dying needs to be handled in a fair and logical manner for victor and victim.

We want to encourage cooperative and competitive player interaction that might legitimately result in player death, whilst protecting against malicious griefing (which we loosely define as actions whose only purpose, outcome and gain is to punish and frustrate other players).

We want to get the balance right so that death is a meaningful threat that really does get the adrenaline pumping, without it being so punitive that it pushes away more casual players.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4604

 

[Moardak]

What is even griefing?

Good question. Since I started using the term it's only fair I try to define it in terms of what it means to me in ED. I would define a griefer as a player that takes enjoyment out of ruining other players' enjoyment of the game. But since this is a pretty loose definition it needs a much more formal definition in the ED universe. So lets just use the existing in game mechanics. If you kill another player that is not marked as "wanted" or "enemy", that kill was griefing.

 

[Kaerakh]

Kaerakh, I can't tell if you're just misunderstanding me and assuming I think all PvP is griefing (which I don't think that at all), or if you really are a griefer and are sore about being called out on it.

I'm just taking what you're posting and responding to it. Don't get me wrong, discourse is really what gets me jimmies off. It's why I'm on a forum for a game that I don't play anymore that also won't launch for what ever reason. Plus, after seeing those posts earlier from Frontier acknowledging that combat logging is an exploit and a problem that needs correction I feel like I can become invested in this game again.

Also, if you think I'm a griefer report me instead of name calling.

If you really are against more severe consequences for griefing behavior yet you're still crying about others avoiding consequences then you're just being a hypocrite.

Quote me saying that, I dare you.

Also maybe you could tell me how a trader in an unarmed trading vessel is going to fight back against a wing of battle ready pirates?

Ah now we get to the core of issue. A familiar complaint from back on EVE, why can't I do X by myself in a PVP environment without being attacked? It's just not fair CCP Frontier. The point of online play is to interact with other players and have meaningful gameplay with consequences because of it. Asking for a stupid decision to not have consequences is literally the antithesis of it.

 

[Roland2]

Good question. Since I started using the term it's only fair I try to define it in terms of what it means to me in ED. I would define a griefer as a player that takes enjoyment out of ruining other players' enjoyment of the game. But since this is a pretty loose definition it needs a much more formal definition in the ED universe. So lets just use the existing in game mechanics. If you kill another player that is not marked as "wanted" or "enemy", that kill was griefing.

I would not consider a pirate encounter when the trader refused to give cargo, then was killed by the pirate as "griefing".

 

[Miko]

Citation needed.



Nice anecdote, if PVP was an undesirable element of the game it wouldn't be in, but of course that won't stop you from stroking your victim complex more. PVP games have consequence to your actions, and Elite Dangerous is a PVP game. PVP isn't just about shooting people; economic PVP is a very real and widely engaged in activity in a wide selection of games(IE, EVE, WoW, Archage, etc). The entire point of having a persistent universe in a game and providing a player with the agency to act on the elements of that universe is so that there are consequences to those actions. Reversing or denying those consequences is to deny the game itself.

Also, there are buttons called private group and solo, use them. They let you do just that.



That's the point. Why would I enter a wing if it didn't make us more effective?



This is really hard to understand from a grammatical point of view. What I think you're saying is, "If logging out is cheating and being killed by someone isn't what is said hypothetical person(the one being killed) to do?" Correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, assuming that is a correct interpretation, they die then and now they have to figure out a way not to get into that situation again or minimize exposure to that risk.

I hope you'll let me indulge in a little anecdote of my own.

Back in EVE my corporation used to live in wormhole space, pretty much the most dangerous space in EVE, not even the nullsec alliances or coalitions wanted anything to do with it. Occasionally we would have to import large amounts of fuel for our [stations]. Originally we thought it was too dangerous to do it with a large freighter as the only wormholes that would generate back to known space would usually exit in lowsec, but then we found a method to make the freighters enter warp far faster without having to sacrifice cargo. This dramatically reduced the risk of bulk imports of goods.

Instead of giving up on the idea, we attacked the problem and figured out a solution. That's really one of the great joys of open and expansive games like Elite or EVE. We had cause to come up with a better solution for our problem because there was danger.



Public discourse without criticism is the death of that discourse, because otherwise its a massive echo chamber. Someone disagrees with you, deal with it. Tell them how they are wrong. Someone says something mean that doesn't have any intellectual bearing on the conversation or the idea. Well that's tough nuts, people aren't always nice on the internet. But guess what, it doesn't make your point wrong so you can ignore it.



Or how about they just use the modes that already do that?

I play open and I pay my insurance. Clearly you dislike me trying to be reasonable on the behalf of certain combat loggers.

 

[Roland2]

I'm just taking what you're posting and responding to it. Don't get me wrong, discourse is really what gets me jimmies off. It's why I'm on a forum for a game that I don't play anymore that also won't launch for what ever reason. Plus, after seeing those posts earlier from Frontier acknowledging that combat logging is an exploit and a problem that needs correction I feel like I can become invested in this game again.

Also, if you think I'm a griefer report me instead of name calling.


Quote me saying that, I dare you.



Ah now we get to the core of issue. A familiar complaint from back on EVE, why can't I do X by myself a PVP environment without being attacked? It's just not fair CCP Frontier. The point of online play is to interact with other players and have meaningful gameplay with consequences because of it. Asking for a stupid decision to not have consequences is literally the antithesis of it.

I agree with part of what you said: "The point of online play is to interact with other players and have meaningful gameplay" however "with consequences because of it." I fully disagree with. You may require "consequences", but that doesn't make it a requirement. Just ask all the COD, Battlefront, Warframe, ESO, STO players doing PvP if they are playing online or not.

 

[Moardak]

Kaerakh, I didn't say you're a griefer. I have no idea how you play. It just sounds like you're supporting a player's right to grief without any real consequences. I suggest some improved consequences for this sort of behavior, and you automatically dismiss them with an unsupported "oh that will never work so don't even try it".

Ah now we get to the core of issue. A familiar complaint from back on EVE, why can't I do X by myself a PVP environment without being attacked? It's just not fair CCP Frontier. The point of online play is to interact with other players and have meaningful gameplay with consequences because of it. Asking for a stupid decision to not have consequences is literally the antithesis of it.

Again, you go on about consequences. And I don't disagree with you. Traders should have consequences for doing trade runs. And they DO have consequences for it, right now, in the game, as it is. It's in the form of other players playing the pirate role, because that's basically an acceptable role to play if you like griefing. The problem is that these pirate players have almost NO consequences whatsoever in game, right now, as it is. You really don't see the problem with this? Why should the consequences for the traders be so much higher than the consequences for the pirates?

 

[shambles1980]

ok. soo
best way to fix it so people dont all cry about it..
You combat log and you lose 90% of the hull you had remaining, and 90% of all module health.
modules will end up at 0% if you combat log twice before repairing. this counts for npcs as well.
should drive up repair prices on ships, and leave repete offenders stuck in the black..

Again not the fix i would want but one that you cant say "ooh but i have bad internet"

 

[Moardak]

I would not consider a pirate encounter when the trader refused to give cargo, then was killed by the pirate as "griefing".

Perhaps not really griefing, but for the purposes of the galaxy wide "player killer" tag that I would like to see implemented in game, it should still apply. If you kill another player that isn't "wanted", "enemy" or also "player killer", then you get the "player killer" tag applied.