Extreme lag happens almost all the time in Open, least it did in Lugh CZ's. Not sure if people disconnected or not, but I know at least once I lagged badly enough that my shield went from full shields to me being dead in a blink of an eye. Most of the time though it was just ships teleporting around or freezing in place.
Combat logging is out of hand, and I'm about to quit because of it
- Thread starter Hagglefoot
- Start date
Extreme lag happens almost all the time in Open, least it did in Lugh CZ's. Not sure if people disconnected or not, but I know at least once I lagged badly enough that my shield went from full shields to me being dead in a blink of an eye. Most of the time though it was just ships teleporting around or freezing in place.
So you're suggesting the game just give the attacker a "dumb target" to kill that looks exactly like the other player's ship. Doesn't sound like much of a challenge to me but OK. Are you suggesting any penalty be applied to the person who logged out, or are you just looking for some sort of "compensation" for the loss of the target?
If you just want compensation, how will you make sure it's not exploited by people who for example take a few shots at a friend, have the friend log out, then kill the "dumb target", especially in places like war zones or where there's bounties involved?
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Not hard to solve man. First up, just don't care. Honestly, that works. That's how Eve does it, if you're in combat and the connection goes, you're in space for one minute, uncontrolled. Works fine, people don't complain about it, it's the way it works. Because they worked out through many years that combat logging will happen more often than network problems at the crucial point (ie, when you're about to blow up)
Eve has central servers that run the game. As I previously explained, ED is a peer to peer game that only uses servers to adjudicate. This solution for Eve won't technically work on ED.
That's actually a lot more possible than keeping them online after they log out.
This is a first world perspective. When I'm in Australia the answer would be "never" but when I'm in South East Asia the answer would be "daily" and sometimes several times a day.
A: There's no exploiting possible. Destruction/damage is applied to your ship when you log back in. You have a 40m bounty and someone blew you up during your cooldown? Guess what. Sidewinder or insurance and the victor got 40m in the bank.
B: ED *has* central servers. Adjudication is what they do, and adjudication is exactly what is necessary. The central servers spawn the NPC's. The central servers keep track of our health, ships, credits. The central servers can make a hollow with cross icon for a player that disconnected during their combat cooldown timer and fill it with an NPC with ANY AI, from throw the parking brake on to murder your face and anything inbetween. This is wholly on Frontier's shoulders to fix or fail, and right now it's in the "Fail" department.
C: Your shoddy connection is your problem is what it boils down to. Don't undock if you can't play, and losing connection multiple times a day for any sane individual SHOULD bring you to the realization that maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't be in open... and if you want to roll the dice then it's on YOU, not on the person who interdicted and is in the process of engaging you when Malaysian internet or your foot kicking the plug causes a disconnect.
Combat logging is a get-away-free card for the loser. Without a mechanism to provide some modicum of balance, then a core mechanic of the game is blatantly broken and the whole "The universe is dangerous" concept of all the different things that can kill you in the game to include players, is negated.
Hey everyone,
I've seen a lot of constructive ideas on here (as well as a few of your typical forums trolls who come to flame then leave), but the fact of the matter is we can talk about this until we are blue in the face and it doesn't mean anything will get done (and this has been talked about quite a bit, for some time).
The purpose of this post was to show that, as an individual player, I plan on taking action against a software exploit that the developers have either ignored or have given too little attention to. If I am to continue playing this game and paying money to support the devs (by buying those paint jobs) then I expect a product I can enjoy and that functions as intended (I believe Frontier said combat logging is not something they intended for the game). If a fix can not be accomplished then I will find another game to play (as so many have told me to just "quit if you don't like it". Even though I said I was doing that in the title many still feel the need to tell me this).
I have come to the forum first to seek answers and hope Frontier cares enough about recurrent revenue to understand that even though I am the only one claiming to be leaving for this reason, many other paying customers will follow (or already have) unannounced.
I would hope by this point this thread has been noticed by a moderator or dev who can speak on the matter and is willing to provide more than a sentence to explain what, if anything, is going on. I won't settle for "we are looking into it". When I quit Counterstrike: Global Offensive, Valve said the same thing about rampant cheaters in the game. I didn't settle for such a blatant brush-off of responsibility and left. Low and behold a mere year later countless cheaters are now in the international championships (I'm not kidding, check it out in mainstream news) and making money winning tournaments doing so. The future of this game is in the same peril. When there are no longer enough players for combat logging to be an issue cheaters will search for other exploits (like credits) and all the countless hours you put into trading will be shown up by a hacker who took 5 minutes to get the same credits it took you months to earn. He will probably kill you too!
So I ask again. Someone who is authorized to speak on the matter please respond to this thread.
I've seen a lot of constructive ideas on here (as well as a few of your typical forums trolls who come to flame then leave), but the fact of the matter is we can talk about this until we are blue in the face and it doesn't mean anything will get done (and this has been talked about quite a bit, for some time).
The purpose of this post was to show that, as an individual player, I plan on taking action against a software exploit that the developers have either ignored or have given too little attention to. If I am to continue playing this game and paying money to support the devs (by buying those paint jobs) then I expect a product I can enjoy and that functions as intended (I believe Frontier said combat logging is not something they intended for the game). If a fix can not be accomplished then I will find another game to play (as so many have told me to just "quit if you don't like it". Even though I said I was doing that in the title many still feel the need to tell me this).
I have come to the forum first to seek answers and hope Frontier cares enough about recurrent revenue to understand that even though I am the only one claiming to be leaving for this reason, many other paying customers will follow (or already have) unannounced.
I would hope by this point this thread has been noticed by a moderator or dev who can speak on the matter and is willing to provide more than a sentence to explain what, if anything, is going on. I won't settle for "we are looking into it". When I quit Counterstrike: Global Offensive, Valve said the same thing about rampant cheaters in the game. I didn't settle for such a blatant brush-off of responsibility and left. Low and behold a mere year later countless cheaters are now in the international championships (I'm not kidding, check it out in mainstream news) and making money winning tournaments doing so. The future of this game is in the same peril. When there are no longer enough players for combat logging to be an issue cheaters will search for other exploits (like credits) and all the countless hours you put into trading will be shown up by a hacker who took 5 minutes to get the same credits it took you months to earn. He will probably kill you too!
So I ask again. Someone who is authorized to speak on the matter please respond to this thread.
We need some new options on the start screen.
Solo - all by your lonesome
Private Group - You and your friends.
Open Group - PvE Lots of CMDR'S playing safely in the knowledge they can't kill each other.
Open - PvP Your ship can be destroyed by other CMDR's. If you lose connection during combat, your ship is destroyed.
Surely it's as simple as this? Everyone knows what to expect from which ever option they choose.
Solo - all by your lonesome
Private Group - You and your friends.
Open Group - PvE Lots of CMDR'S playing safely in the knowledge they can't kill each other.
Open - PvP Your ship can be destroyed by other CMDR's. If you lose connection during combat, your ship is destroyed.
Surely it's as simple as this? Everyone knows what to expect from which ever option they choose.
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Sorry but Private Group and Open Group are redundant. You can choose to belong to more than one group.
You can have one for you and your friends. Call it Whatever.
You can join a group like Mobius where PvE is the rule.
You can join other Private groups dedicated to PvP battles, Mining, Trading, Racing, Exploring, or whatever else there is a group for.
Switch Groups at will.
There is NO reason for Two Group Modes, we already have BAZILLION group mode. Join as many as you want.
To the OP. You lost me at "I'm sure most of you don't mind bring pointlessly killed".
Combat logging is not playing the game properly but can I suggest that the way you're playing above us driving the behaviour?
Combat logging is not playing the game properly but can I suggest that the way you're playing above us driving the behaviour?
Yes, and each one of those groups dilutes the multiplayer experience. So then I would get rid of private groups and have Solo, Open PvE and Open PvP.
So as I said you don't want a "dumb target". Fair enuf.
This is ALL adjudication. There's no game play on FD's servers. If you turn off the local computer the game play stops BECAUSE it's peer to peer. FD's serverss don't work the way Eve's servers do. Major technical challenge.
Sorry but that's bull. If you were penalised because someone repeatedly turned off your power you'd be screaming about how unfair it was. Get over yourself - so someone combat logged on you... my first reaction is "oh boo hoo". Sure it needs to be addressed but you can't say that "Anyone who doesn't have as good an internet connection as I do can just suffer coz it's unfair to me otherwise".
Sure it's disappointing when people do it, but at the end of the day It's a game. Keep it in perspective, ok?
1st that's why I said, it won't be instantly, it'll need some time without connection to verify. 10/15 seconds perhaps, Then it will kick on.
2nd, well there's 2 ways of doing it. Either npcs will always be elite, since even avg players are better than elite npcs. Or have the npc match your combat rating. That will add importance to the rating and would be fair.
3rd, as others pointed out, it would have to operate on a, "too bad so sad" rule. If you lose your connection during a fight, tough luck. You'll know not to let your cat run free, or play during a storm next time. That's the only fair way of doing it. If this is done it won't be up to you to not lose connection, we'd get an influx of crying threads, but logging would be fixed. Elite wants to be a persistent universe mmo, then it can act like it.
It's also possible to tell the difference between the game being killed and the router plug being pulled. When the game is killed, they disappear instantly, when the Internet connection is lost, they become invincible and repeat their action at the time. Idk how that can come into play, but it's an idea.
You're still not determining intent.
Both sound like reasonable ideas.
First world perspective. There's a LOT of the world who don't have reliable power and internet, (I know we have a bunch of players here from China and the Philippines for a start. Parts of Russia and Eastern Europe are the same.) but this suggests that they should be penalised because we first world players are upset that someone logged out.
It's an idea worth looking into, yes.
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Groups allow control of idiots who would not follow the rules of a Open PvE. Even groups are not immune to these idiots. Solo and Groups should stay. Open is PvP with PvE elements by design. No Need to segregate them as we already have that. Its called groups.
Besides, since you have the choice, play the way YOU want and stop trying to make others like me play YOUR game and not Mine.
It's not possible to prove intent, at least not with 100% accuracy. There's only 2 "fair" options for the npc avatar idea to work. Either it kicks on, if you log out under let's say, 50% hull or with thrusters being destroyed, or if connection is lost any time during in combat, but only against another player. Both have their downsides. For option A people will figure out the damage or just do it as soon as their shields are gone. For option B like you said, it hurts people with spotty Internet.
I understand not everyone has great internet, but theres always solo, mobius or other groups to join. I'm sure open will see a decrease in numbers, while solo and mobius' numbers will grow. Group and solo could even be immune to any logging punishment.
If frontier were to do this idea, they will have to be wiling to break some eggs. There's no other way around it. Even if another idea, that had more leeway, were to happen, there will still be people claiming innocence, or evil cats or bad Internet. The line has to be drawn somewhere, in someway.
Something has to be done. It's not just griefers, or pirates complaing, it's everyone. Bounty hunters can't hunt player pirates. Mercs, in combat zones, can't fight each other. People can't kill those who shot them first. Pirates can't effectively pirate anyone. Pvp is impossible when 25% of your targets quit on you disappear on you. Now imagine if the same was true for npcs. Would everyone still be saying frontier will get to it when they can?
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My suggestion:
When a disconnect has been detected your client spawns an explosion where the enemy ship was last detected and any bounty is awarded.
The logger isn't penalised because you cannot know his intent and it's therefore impossible to distinguish an accidental or technical logout.
Combat logging can't be stopped so mitigating the frustration felt by the logee is perhaps the only viable solution to pursue.
When a disconnect has been detected your client spawns an explosion where the enemy ship was last detected and any bounty is awarded.
The logger isn't penalised because you cannot know his intent and it's therefore impossible to distinguish an accidental or technical logout.
Combat logging can't be stopped so mitigating the frustration felt by the logee is perhaps the only viable solution to pursue.
Its really not that hard to solve, telemetry + a human arbiter, yes he'd be busy for a while but guess what, less and less busy as he/she bans people. Trying to come up with an automated system probably wastes more time and money than just finding the worst offenders, giving them a permanent ban and posting it all over galnet that they have been put in galactic Jail for being woeful cheaters.
You don't need to catch all of them, just them doing something, anything, would probably deter people as they are only doing it to save 5mil credits in the first place :/
You don't need to catch all of them, just them doing something, anything, would probably deter people as they are only doing it to save 5mil credits in the first place :/
Exactly this, insurance is a terrible game mechanic that stifles game-play. Get rid of it all together. Why is this not obvious to FD ?
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And yes, why do we need to lose our cargo. For exactly the same reason this stifles game-play. Why do FD not see that ?
Well it would make the game too easy, there will be no more risk to the game. Also people will still log out. Pirates will do it to deny their bounty, traders will do it to deny their cargo. People will do it to avoid being slightly inconvenienced.
Nonsense, it would create a vibrant competition for cargo. At the moment traders are forced to avoid risks at all costs and we have pirates clamoring for more targets. In one fell swoop removal of insurance and not losing cargo would create a fun game environment with more engagement.
It's a no brainer.
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I asked this before and I have not seen a reply so I will ask again:
Why not make it impossible to logoff/quit/save/just plain leave the game unless your ship is stationary?
I have been playing since August and I can't recall a single instance when I intentionally shut down the game when my ship was in motion. Why would anyone do this?
And before someone replies that it doesn't determine if the disconnect was intentional or not,,,,,,, I agree,,,, it doesn't.
BUT,,,,,,,,,,,
Play the odds. Even if you only play PVP and nothing else, How much time is actually spent during the (if your winning) killshot or the (if your losing) death throes? In the total time of play, I will estimate a low single digit percentage.
Now take into account how many time a genuine disconnect occurs. My connection is quite poor in the sense of line quality. So much so that I only get (on a good day) 1.5 megs down when my connection is supposed to be 6. Even with that, I have experienced less than 10 dropouts in this game.
Now tell me what the odds are that during a rare critical moment, a rare "oops" occurs with my connection. From a practical standpoint, I have similar odds of winning a lottery.
Now impose a automatic sanction on any unintentional exits from the game. I don't care if my cat jumped on my keyboard. Who gives a rip if it's too blame on my "lousy" internet connection. Cry me a river for a sudden power loss,,,,,,
Since nothing is perfect, we all play the odds. In real life AND in games.
And since nothing there is no 100% solution, play the high percentage one.
And when it comes to those who say they have a internet connection that is so flaky, they never know when they are going to get kicked out, or if they are going to experience multiple dropouts every few minutes,,,,, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
I can't imagine playing ANY game that I know is going to be (on a regular basis) disconnected as much as connected. Nor would I plan on buying one if I know how "lousy" my internet connection is.
Why not make it impossible to logoff/quit/save/just plain leave the game unless your ship is stationary?
I have been playing since August and I can't recall a single instance when I intentionally shut down the game when my ship was in motion. Why would anyone do this?
And before someone replies that it doesn't determine if the disconnect was intentional or not,,,,,,, I agree,,,, it doesn't.
BUT,,,,,,,,,,,
Play the odds. Even if you only play PVP and nothing else, How much time is actually spent during the (if your winning) killshot or the (if your losing) death throes? In the total time of play, I will estimate a low single digit percentage.
Now take into account how many time a genuine disconnect occurs. My connection is quite poor in the sense of line quality. So much so that I only get (on a good day) 1.5 megs down when my connection is supposed to be 6. Even with that, I have experienced less than 10 dropouts in this game.
Now tell me what the odds are that during a rare critical moment, a rare "oops" occurs with my connection. From a practical standpoint, I have similar odds of winning a lottery.
Now impose a automatic sanction on any unintentional exits from the game. I don't care if my cat jumped on my keyboard. Who gives a rip if it's too blame on my "lousy" internet connection. Cry me a river for a sudden power loss,,,,,,
Since nothing is perfect, we all play the odds. In real life AND in games.
And since nothing there is no 100% solution, play the high percentage one.
And when it comes to those who say they have a internet connection that is so flaky, they never know when they are going to get kicked out, or if they are going to experience multiple dropouts every few minutes,,,,, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
I can't imagine playing ANY game that I know is going to be (on a regular basis) disconnected as much as connected. Nor would I plan on buying one if I know how "lousy" my internet connection is.
No, it means death doesn't matter. The game becomes counterstrike in spaceships.
Did you read the rest? People will still log out so we'd still have the same problem.
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