Combat Logging Punishment Proposal
See my post No.255 in this thread and the series of posts by Sandro in the other thread to which I was referring.
Frontier appear to envisage a possible sequence that runs something like this:
Step 1. Cmdr disconnects from combat.
Step 2. Cmdr incurs negative karma.
Step 3. By reason of negative karma, Cmdr incurs penalties such as cumulatively higher rebuy.
Step 4. Higher rebuy is not irrelevant because other measures makes it easier for that Cmdr to be killed.
Step 5. Those that are truly egregious in their combat logging behaviour may circumvent the above and incur direct account penalties (hence, they can't keep the loop going forever by logging forever).
So basically making them easier to kill is a component part of the deterrence the above sequence is supposed to introduce.
Seems like a solution to capture various 'bad karma' situations. If that's applied to CLogging alone I'm not sure it wouldn't make the situation worse.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Replace references to Combat Logging with "clean player destruction" and it could work that way too....
Give Security ships a special FSD reboot railgun, reserved for the worst of criminals (and Combat Loggers).
Now that'd be a big salt mine if nothing else. Lol
Off topic now though.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
Yeah. An overarching 'karma rep' can see patterns of behaviour. I don't think that mechanism alone would discourage CLogging specifically, and a specific rule or penalty would need to apply.
I could see a player creating a lot of problems before karma bites back without a more immediate form of dis-incentive.
I've been going back through the thread looking for points I might have missed, and comparing them to CMDR_Cosmicspacehead's idea in post #34.
The idea is simple, probably pretty easy to implement and covers all bases without being unduly punishing to genuine CTDs & networking problems.
A 'tag' is added to your save when you enter danger, and removed when you leave legitimately. If you CLog (whether accidental or otherwise) the tag remains, and when you next log back in you can only re-join in the same mode (open/specific group/solo).
I don't think any timer is required on retaining the tag, even if it's hours or days later, if you want to choose another mode just re-enter, exit to menu normally & change mode as usual.
So we need a timer on how long you have to wait after re-joining before you can change modes again. An hour? Less? More? How long should one unit of time be?
Test #1 You CLog on a ganker. If you return straight away they will be waiting for you (in the instance you left or in supercruise). It's not personal, they just want to gank anyone, but you just CLogged on them so maybe it is a little bit personal. You can stay out of the game & wait until you think (hope) they have forgotten about you, but when you eventually return the timer starts & they have 1 unit of time to take you out. You log out (legitimately) and wait for the gankers to leave the game so you can let the timer expire & maybe switch modes. Result, ganked CLogger's actions are taken out of the game unless they accept their fate.
Test #2 You are a spawncamper & CLog on the AA. This time it's personal, they are waiting specifically for you in SC when you return. They catch you again, you CLog again, and so it goes. This is the new game for you, you are getting attention but you cannot make any progress, you cannot slip to solo & move, then pop up somewhere else in Open until 1 unit of time has passed. You get bored & quit for the night. Result, spawncamper is 'policed' out of the game until they no longer want to play, or accept their fate.
Test #3 You are unlucky & CTD whilst in danger (this test also applies to PvE CLoggers). You log back in to the same mode & carry on, 1 unit of time passes no problem.
The 'Karma' system logs the number of CLogs (no matter what the reason), probably averaging it over the past month or something, if you CLog a lot bad things start to happen as described by Truesilver in post #263.
If you have a poor internet connection there will be little direct relation with what you are doing in the game, so most disconnects will not be while in danger. If the game is bugged & CTDs (possibly because of your connection quality, or another player in your instance) as described by Red Anders in post #61 The karma system needs to be able to compare trends over lots of Cmdrs to eliminate these as deliberate. This may require manual intervention for server crashes say.
I think this works, and covers all contingencies. How long should 1 unit of time be?
ETA note that 1 unit of time is time spent playing the game, which is already a metric.
The idea is simple, probably pretty easy to implement and covers all bases without being unduly punishing to genuine CTDs & networking problems.
A 'tag' is added to your save when you enter danger, and removed when you leave legitimately. If you CLog (whether accidental or otherwise) the tag remains, and when you next log back in you can only re-join in the same mode (open/specific group/solo).
I don't think any timer is required on retaining the tag, even if it's hours or days later, if you want to choose another mode just re-enter, exit to menu normally & change mode as usual.
So we need a timer on how long you have to wait after re-joining before you can change modes again. An hour? Less? More? How long should one unit of time be?
Test #1 You CLog on a ganker. If you return straight away they will be waiting for you (in the instance you left or in supercruise). It's not personal, they just want to gank anyone, but you just CLogged on them so maybe it is a little bit personal. You can stay out of the game & wait until you think (hope) they have forgotten about you, but when you eventually return the timer starts & they have 1 unit of time to take you out. You log out (legitimately) and wait for the gankers to leave the game so you can let the timer expire & maybe switch modes. Result, ganked CLogger's actions are taken out of the game unless they accept their fate.
Test #2 You are a spawncamper & CLog on the AA. This time it's personal, they are waiting specifically for you in SC when you return. They catch you again, you CLog again, and so it goes. This is the new game for you, you are getting attention but you cannot make any progress, you cannot slip to solo & move, then pop up somewhere else in Open until 1 unit of time has passed. You get bored & quit for the night. Result, spawncamper is 'policed' out of the game until they no longer want to play, or accept their fate.
Test #3 You are unlucky & CTD whilst in danger (this test also applies to PvE CLoggers). You log back in to the same mode & carry on, 1 unit of time passes no problem.
The 'Karma' system logs the number of CLogs (no matter what the reason), probably averaging it over the past month or something, if you CLog a lot bad things start to happen as described by Truesilver in post #263.
If you have a poor internet connection there will be little direct relation with what you are doing in the game, so most disconnects will not be while in danger. If the game is bugged & CTDs (possibly because of your connection quality, or another player in your instance) as described by Red Anders in post #61 The karma system needs to be able to compare trends over lots of Cmdrs to eliminate these as deliberate. This may require manual intervention for server crashes say.
I think this works, and covers all contingencies. How long should 1 unit of time be?
ETA note that 1 unit of time is time spent playing the game, which is already a metric.
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Some notes on the above suggestion, looking at flaws & picking up on comments throughout this thread.
Mode Restricting Timer:
If the mode restricting timer is removed by the rebuy screen it will be susceptible to the suicidewinder exploit. I propose the timer lapses only once it times out. It should count down only while the player is actually in an instance (open/group/solo) and not at a menu screen.
1 unit of time linked to karma system, increases with each subsequent incident.
Timer means the CLogger cannot mode swap for missions etc while it's in effect.
I propose 1 unit of time be 15 minutes. Enough time to reach a dock (or another safe place) and wait safely in-game for the timer to expire. Docking invulnerability negates a longer timer but the CLogger is pinned down by attacker & unable to leave dock, or has left the system (so for example the blockade was successful).
'Ship in danger' 15sec countdown:
Note that the 15 sec 'ship in danger' timer will still work, but can now be increased, provided the player can walk away from the game & is no longer required to confirm after the timer expires as suggested by Stigbob in post #30. This lack of confirmation would need to include the possibility of a rebuy screen, to be shown when the player next logs in. A cancel button during the countdown would allow the player to regain control. The countdown timer should not reset or otherwise change to avoid rewarding 'playful' gankers delaying the legitimate exit.
I propose this countdown be changed to 30secs initially & review up or down in due course.
Potential downsides, stuff to consider:
Risk could be mitigated by the CLogger on rejoining with the in-game blacklist, or router/firewall rules to exclude an IP. Not sure anything can be done (or needs to be done) about this but the mode restricting timer/karma is still some punishment. Pointed out by Vorthax in post #79.
One likely outcome from this would be that habitual CLoggers may tend to move away from open to a group or solo. Improving Crime & punishment mechanics & other aspects of the karma system may help reverse that trend.
There is no monetary nor cargo loss to the CLogger, but their in-game ability to progress will be restricted by their attacker and the mode restricting timer. They save the rebuy cost (assuming they would have died had they not CLogged) but have been prevented from achieving their immediate goal. A ganker does not win, but the blockader achieves their aim. No punishment can be directly applied because we cannot distinguish accidental disconnects from deliberate CLogging. Apart from the effects of the mode restricting timer on mode switching for missions etc, any punishment should only come from the karma based system.
Conclusion:
CMDR_CosmicSpaceHead's idea is independent of the Karma proposal, and can be implemented immediately, along with extending the 15sec timer (along with moving the confirmation to during the countdown instead of after it completes).
Mode Restricting Timer:
If the mode restricting timer is removed by the rebuy screen it will be susceptible to the suicidewinder exploit. I propose the timer lapses only once it times out. It should count down only while the player is actually in an instance (open/group/solo) and not at a menu screen.
1 unit of time linked to karma system, increases with each subsequent incident.
Timer means the CLogger cannot mode swap for missions etc while it's in effect.
I propose 1 unit of time be 15 minutes. Enough time to reach a dock (or another safe place) and wait safely in-game for the timer to expire. Docking invulnerability negates a longer timer but the CLogger is pinned down by attacker & unable to leave dock, or has left the system (so for example the blockade was successful).
'Ship in danger' 15sec countdown:
Note that the 15 sec 'ship in danger' timer will still work, but can now be increased, provided the player can walk away from the game & is no longer required to confirm after the timer expires as suggested by Stigbob in post #30. This lack of confirmation would need to include the possibility of a rebuy screen, to be shown when the player next logs in. A cancel button during the countdown would allow the player to regain control. The countdown timer should not reset or otherwise change to avoid rewarding 'playful' gankers delaying the legitimate exit.
I propose this countdown be changed to 30secs initially & review up or down in due course.
Potential downsides, stuff to consider:
Risk could be mitigated by the CLogger on rejoining with the in-game blacklist, or router/firewall rules to exclude an IP. Not sure anything can be done (or needs to be done) about this but the mode restricting timer/karma is still some punishment. Pointed out by Vorthax in post #79.
One likely outcome from this would be that habitual CLoggers may tend to move away from open to a group or solo. Improving Crime & punishment mechanics & other aspects of the karma system may help reverse that trend.
There is no monetary nor cargo loss to the CLogger, but their in-game ability to progress will be restricted by their attacker and the mode restricting timer. They save the rebuy cost (assuming they would have died had they not CLogged) but have been prevented from achieving their immediate goal. A ganker does not win, but the blockader achieves their aim. No punishment can be directly applied because we cannot distinguish accidental disconnects from deliberate CLogging. Apart from the effects of the mode restricting timer on mode switching for missions etc, any punishment should only come from the karma based system.
Conclusion:
CMDR_CosmicSpaceHead's idea is independent of the Karma proposal, and can be implemented immediately, along with extending the 15sec timer (along with moving the confirmation to during the countdown instead of after it completes).
This suggestion to deal with Combat logging assumes that a karma system is in place and a robust mechanism for determining if combat logging has occurred is in place. Combat logging is one of the very few acts of blatant cheating I would use a karma system to resolve in Elite. Karma implies death and rebirth so why not add a threat of character death to the game if it can be determined that combat logging has occurred. Character death would effectively mean a player has to start again from scratch, with sidewinder, starting credits even a new character name. All ranks, money, modules, ships etc. would be lost.
How would it work? If an instance of combat logging is confirmed then this effects your karma score. For example, lets say one instance of clogging reduces your karma score by 10%. If you subsequently are destroyed there should be a 10% chance your character dies. Further confirmed acts of clogging would reduce your karma score further, thus increasing your chance of character death on ship destruction. When 100% of your karma is used up it is instant straight forward character death, no ship destruction required! If a cmdr constantly clogs (therefore, avoids ship destructions), then eventually the karma system will catch up with them. Time factors and logarithmic karma loss could also be introduced. For example one clog might be wiped after x amount of time without further incidence. Or if multiple clogs happen in a short space of time karma is used up quicker.
The whole basis of this idea should be a deterrent, would it be worth risking potentially years of grind of losing your character by clogging? Whilst offering a little bit of protection in debatable cases.
How would it work? If an instance of combat logging is confirmed then this effects your karma score. For example, lets say one instance of clogging reduces your karma score by 10%. If you subsequently are destroyed there should be a 10% chance your character dies. Further confirmed acts of clogging would reduce your karma score further, thus increasing your chance of character death on ship destruction. When 100% of your karma is used up it is instant straight forward character death, no ship destruction required! If a cmdr constantly clogs (therefore, avoids ship destructions), then eventually the karma system will catch up with them. Time factors and logarithmic karma loss could also be introduced. For example one clog might be wiped after x amount of time without further incidence. Or if multiple clogs happen in a short space of time karma is used up quicker.
The whole basis of this idea should be a deterrent, would it be worth risking potentially years of grind of losing your character by clogging? Whilst offering a little bit of protection in debatable cases.
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The whole point of the karma system is that Frontier are unable to confirm if someone actually combat logged.
With the above there's a 10% chance a CMDR loses their save due to combat logging when it isn't a combat log.
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From what I understand from the things mention from Sandro etc. then Fdev are working on a karma system that will monitor players behaviour over time. If players have been "confirmed" clogging by Fdev then it's about working out a punishment. If players who genuinely had a system failure can prove the case then there should be no problem. Also there should be a way of players flagging up a potential combat log. For players in countries where system failures are an issue perhaps there can be more, ways to streamline the "report a network failure" mechanism or even a reduced percentage of death based on the network reliability. If clogging is unconfirmed then no action is taken.
I'd say, depending on how the "tag" would work, 30 minutes to 1 hour.
But, because the "tag" would need to be placed the moment you entered danger, and this timestamp is what the Clogging system would read from, I'm leaning towards 1 hour.
Of course, this would increase with additional Clogs. But I think 1 hour is a fair starting point.
The choice whether to use game time, or real time would be up to FD.
Game time is more harsh in the Clogger, than real time. But real time is more forgiving for the accidental Clogger.
The only collateral from my idea is;
If you Clog unintentionally, just before you plan on mode switching for missions, or to meet a friend(s) in another mode, my idea would prevent this.
The latter issue, can be solved by having your friend(s) meet you in your mode instead, unless it was solo. Lol
The only other issue I can think of, is if a CMDR is in a CZ, and has been in constant battle for quite some time, without ever not being in danger. Their "tag" timestamp could already be very "old" so a Clog in this situation may have no punishment.
So maybe the tag could be refreshed every 60 seconds or so, so the latest timestamp is used...?
Unless the timer is started from the moment the game reads the save, and sees a tag is still in place...? Probably should have started with that.
CMDR Cosmic Spacehead
A useful thing possibly for the 15 second exit to menu? Display the countdown to all CMDRs in the instance! I know pirates who start shooting at victims because they "think" they are exiting to menu, and it could just be the victim isn't quick enough to respond in 5-10 seconds!
Displaying if they are exiting to menu, would clear this entirely up.
And if you are hit during those 15 seconds, the first time add another 15 seconds on, making a total exit time of 30 seconds.
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Interesting idea. A slight alternative to the tagging idea:
1) When you enter danger due to other ships, place a tag on the account which contains details of those ships (including faction and mission relevance for NPCs and player ID for players). Periodically sync ship data so long as the player remains in danger to account for extra arrivals.
2) If you log out - be it through a network drop or a 15-second timer - with an active tag, the ship details are saved against your account. With the timer it can do a final sync when you press 'OK'; with the network drop it'll be slightly stale.
3) When you log back in, immediately respawn and set hostile the NPCs in the tag. If there are player ships in the tag, check if that player is in the instance; if not, spawn an NPC ship with identical loadout (including engineering) and combat ranking to replace it. Relative ship position isn't going to be synced often enough, so just put them in front of the player ready to open fire.
(danger due to intense heat, gravity, neutron stars, etc. already basically works like this, after all)
If you intentionally combat log in PvP, then when you return - even if you switch modes - you'll have something fairly dangerous waiting for you. If you logged out because you were losing (no plant, no FSD, shields down, etc.) then the NPCs can probably finish you off. If you logged out as soon as you were attacked, then you still have to at least run from the NPC.
If you do it in PvE, you still get the enemies on your return. You could even remove the timer entirely for causes of danger that weren't players, in that case - honest players will benefit from being able to carry on with the fight they were in the middle of (whether it was network issues or needing to quit to deal with something out of game)
1) When you enter danger due to other ships, place a tag on the account which contains details of those ships (including faction and mission relevance for NPCs and player ID for players). Periodically sync ship data so long as the player remains in danger to account for extra arrivals.
2) If you log out - be it through a network drop or a 15-second timer - with an active tag, the ship details are saved against your account. With the timer it can do a final sync when you press 'OK'; with the network drop it'll be slightly stale.
3) When you log back in, immediately respawn and set hostile the NPCs in the tag. If there are player ships in the tag, check if that player is in the instance; if not, spawn an NPC ship with identical loadout (including engineering) and combat ranking to replace it. Relative ship position isn't going to be synced often enough, so just put them in front of the player ready to open fire.
(danger due to intense heat, gravity, neutron stars, etc. already basically works like this, after all)
If you intentionally combat log in PvP, then when you return - even if you switch modes - you'll have something fairly dangerous waiting for you. If you logged out because you were losing (no plant, no FSD, shields down, etc.) then the NPCs can probably finish you off. If you logged out as soon as you were attacked, then you still have to at least run from the NPC.
If you do it in PvE, you still get the enemies on your return. You could even remove the timer entirely for causes of danger that weren't players, in that case - honest players will benefit from being able to carry on with the fight they were in the middle of (whether it was network issues or needing to quit to deal with something out of game)
Interesting thread that address only a single specific issue and one I suspect may just annoy the OP the most, most of these suggestions (only skimmed) seem to favour the aggressor. In my opinion there can be no action taken against combat logging until there is a balancing that also impacts the aggressor. I am talking specifically about the ganking side, 4 fully engineered FDLs against a trading T7 or similar, bailing out of a PvP agreed fight or closely matched ships is still unacceptable and must be addressed.
Do I condone combat logging, NO is the simple answer, never have or will but can see why some may if there are zero consequences for the aggressor(s) , it boils down to piracy is valid ganking is not, well not without some form of persistent punishment that can not be cancelled by the sidewinder trick.
A holistic approach is required which is where Fdev and the karma system comes in....
Just my thoughts
Do I condone combat logging, NO is the simple answer, never have or will but can see why some may if there are zero consequences for the aggressor(s) , it boils down to piracy is valid ganking is not, well not without some form of persistent punishment that can not be cancelled by the sidewinder trick.
A holistic approach is required which is where Fdev and the karma system comes in....
Just my thoughts
Agreed... And as the suggestion is C&P (karma) is not going to apply in anarchy systems - why? - then every new exploration based site discovered, which becomes the griefer goto location of the week, will remain an example of cynical toxic gameplay... Maybe FD will come up with something else to protect these areas...
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Fair point, though I would hope this would be included as FDev are fully aware of this issue and have said so, the implementation of a Karma system is far from an easy task so I for don't expect anything soon.
Hey there. New to this forum. I think I have an idea to prevent combat logging.
Okay, logging is cheating. I first played in Open a couple of days ago (not counting once in then past when I accidentally left in open after taking a mission from Sothis/Ceos and got killed). I was fine in Solo but I thought I'd see how it is to be in Open. I had no idea how much different combat is. I didn't know the difference the engineering would make. So I lost my Anaconda once and logged the second time. I wanted to see what I did wrong but after talking with a couple of CMDRs I understood that I had no chance. Simply because I don't devote enough time to upgrade my ship and I'm just not as hardcore a gamer as others. I won't practice as much as others. I don't care to do so cause I don't want to think seriously about anything other than my real-life worries. Then I tested my Fer-de-Lance and since I knew what I was getting into, I stayed and got blasted.
So it's like I stand no chance if I play in Open. But still I think we (simple gamers) have the right for it. We bought the same game after all.
I think that creating certain player levels outside the game (not the competent, elit, dangerous thing) can help prevent combat logging. Like 5 "leagues". We all start in No3. If my win/loss ratio in PvP is 45-55% I stay in the same league. If I win more than 55% I go to league No4 whereas when I get less than 45% I go to No2.
This way, after some cycles, I'll get to play in Open with CMDRs of the same level as me, more or less.
The different "leagues" could also effect the PowerPlay respectively, like level 3 is the base, level 4 = x1.5, level 5 = x2, level 1= x0.5, level 2 = x0.75. So if I'm a rookie and play on the safe side, my deeds won't have the same consequences with a top class player.
Still, a top class trader can be at the same level with a top class pirate, if his ship is engineered to cool down fsd faster and by having stronger shields etc, so it won't end like "traders in level1 and pirates in level5"
That's a general idea, the numbers are just examples but I think that this way, the game would be less frustrating for everyone.
Rookies have the right to play with others without being sure they'll be killed more "sooner" than later and experts can feel more sure their enemy won't log, since they won't be so easy to kill anyway...
Sorry for the lost post after all
Okay, logging is cheating. I first played in Open a couple of days ago (not counting once in then past when I accidentally left in open after taking a mission from Sothis/Ceos and got killed). I was fine in Solo but I thought I'd see how it is to be in Open. I had no idea how much different combat is. I didn't know the difference the engineering would make. So I lost my Anaconda once and logged the second time. I wanted to see what I did wrong but after talking with a couple of CMDRs I understood that I had no chance. Simply because I don't devote enough time to upgrade my ship and I'm just not as hardcore a gamer as others. I won't practice as much as others. I don't care to do so cause I don't want to think seriously about anything other than my real-life worries. Then I tested my Fer-de-Lance and since I knew what I was getting into, I stayed and got blasted.
So it's like I stand no chance if I play in Open. But still I think we (simple gamers) have the right for it. We bought the same game after all.
I think that creating certain player levels outside the game (not the competent, elit, dangerous thing) can help prevent combat logging. Like 5 "leagues". We all start in No3. If my win/loss ratio in PvP is 45-55% I stay in the same league. If I win more than 55% I go to league No4 whereas when I get less than 45% I go to No2.
This way, after some cycles, I'll get to play in Open with CMDRs of the same level as me, more or less.
The different "leagues" could also effect the PowerPlay respectively, like level 3 is the base, level 4 = x1.5, level 5 = x2, level 1= x0.5, level 2 = x0.75. So if I'm a rookie and play on the safe side, my deeds won't have the same consequences with a top class player.
Still, a top class trader can be at the same level with a top class pirate, if his ship is engineered to cool down fsd faster and by having stronger shields etc, so it won't end like "traders in level1 and pirates in level5"
That's a general idea, the numbers are just examples but I think that this way, the game would be less frustrating for everyone.
Rookies have the right to play with others without being sure they'll be killed more "sooner" than later and experts can feel more sure their enemy won't log, since they won't be so easy to kill anyway...
Sorry for the lost post after all