Have they actually run permanent bans? I was unaware of that.

You do have a point about modes.

I could only provide you with evidence of one example - the guy took the whole thing to reddit including emails from Frontier Support he posted himself telling him to get lost - permanent shadow ban.

An hour ban for a connection failure would make the game unplayable for people without very stable connections. Not everybody lives in cities or geographically compact European nations.

There's also the technical issue with the fact that a p2p connection between two players can be dropped, intentionally or otherwise. If you go ahead and assume that a lost p2p connection during a PvP fight means whoever was loosing cut it, griefers would inevitably attack people, gain a clear advantage and then cut the connection to trigger an illegitimate reprisal against the victim.

Combat logging is an untreatable symptom of a treatable illness. By all accounts, the overwhelming majority of logging is done by players being attacked by somebody with a far superior ship, and griefers facing players who try to stop them. If you solve the griefing problem, combat logging will naturally fade away.

I'm afraid that a fair degree of logging is neither innocent escaping overwhelming evil, nor evil escaping justice. It's, for example, Powerplayer escaping Powerplayer: straight up cheating, pure and simple.

EDIT: I would like to add, concerning my Powerplay example, that in my own lengthy experience, said loggers are very much a minority. The reason I add this is that although I know others have had a much more negative experience, my own experience has always been that the vast majority of the player base are honourable pilots - however much I might decry the minority.
 
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What a grand idea! I lose connection for any period of time, in my control or not, thus I must stay off of the game longer. Yea, can we not go with this one, please?
 
From the feedback over the last day or so it seems clear that there are lots of things in the game that some people consider to be exploits, but one that stands out as fairly universally accepted to be a 'cheat' is Combat Logging.

There are lots of innocent reasons why a client may disconnect ungracefully, and unlike the recent Engineers cheat it's much harder to determine whether a CLogger did so deliberately or not.

I'd like to propose a simple 1hr ban from the game following any disconnect, no matter what the reason.


If a client is having connection difficulties, waiting a while before trying to reconnect is probably a good idea anyway, if they are genuinely trying to diagnose why the game crashed or their internet connection dropped, pinging the server & other stuff can be done in this time anyway.

If the client CLogs to avoid being ganked the gankers 'win' by preventing the CLogger from reaching the station (for an hour) etc, adding something to the gameplay rather than simply avoiding it.

If the client CLogs to avoid punishment (eg spawncamper being attacked by the AA) then the newbies have been given some breathing space where the ganker cannot simply relog & carry on popping sidewinders.


Would this be a reasonable compromise all round?

I get knocked off the game from time to time and I've never logged. That would be a serious annoyance. Rather, I'd say if evidence is brought of a log, some priority should be given to the investigation (resources allowing) and increasingly long periods of solo only handed out. Iow, maybe start with a 24 hr ban from Open and group, then a week long ban, working its way up to a month and any further infraction from there becomes permanent solo (no group access either).
 

Deleted member 115407

D
I get knocked off the game from time to time and I've never logged. That would be a serious annoyance. Rather, I'd say if evidence is brought of a log, some priority should be given to the investigation (resources allowing) and increasingly long periods of solo only handed out. Iow, maybe start with a 24 hr ban from Open and group, then a week long ban, working its way up to a month and any further infraction from there becomes permanent solo (no group access either).

I've got a better one then, every time someone combat logs, Ozram forfeits a portion of his bankroll equal to their rebuy.

Yeah? I like it.
 
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Not impressed with idea ... since I had about three or four CTD's during the Beta and at least one since then. So you purpose to punish everyone for the few (I have no idea how many there are)? Personally I am not fond of dying but i won't log or be accused of being one if it's not my fault.

Chief
 
The complete post above (snipped for brevity) is the most pertinent one of all in this thread at this moment. If you haven't read it all, do so before moving on. It puts the persepective on Combatlogging where it should be.

For my part, a two-fold solution is needed:
1. The Timer needs to be extended. I'd say atleast 30 seconds, preferably 60.
Even though FDev acknowledges that it is a legitimate way to exit the game, its intention was never to be a "get out of jail free card." At 15 seconds you should not be dead, unless you're flying a shieldless, paper-hull, maxed-for-cargo trader, or are being ganked by the most extreme wings out there. So it is currently a "get out of jail free card" and it is being abused because FDev have stated that it's a legitimate way to exit the game.
If RL happens, well those are the risks we take everytime we sit down in front of our computer to play a game, be it this or any other. A lot of players should stop using that as justification for combatlogging.
If a bug happens and you die because of it, contact FDev Support. They are extremely frivolous with their refund policy, so an actual bug will have no issues passing their lacking litmus test.

2. FDev needs to start using that telemetry they have bragged about before.
If someone is reported once for combatlogging, then as Red Anders stated, it may just be a fluke but that should be logged at FDev.
If it happens twice we're still in the land of coincidences, as Darkfyre99 was talking about, but depending on the amount of time between the two, some red flags should start popping up in the offices of FDev.
The third time someone is reported for combatlogging, FDev should start going through netlogs to look for a pattern.
If the player has an extraordinary amount of disconnects, but they are completely random and rarely when in combat with other players, a friendly mail suggesting that they have a look at their connection and should reconsider playing in Open would be in order.
If a pattern of disconnects mainly, or very often, when in danger can be established, the player receives a not so friendly letter from FDev stating what they have found and that their account will be monitored for the next 3 months.
If during that time the same pattern continues, a timeout (aka Shadowban) for 30 days should be implemented. Following the shadowban the player will be on probation for 6 months.
Any reappearing pattern within those 6 months will lead to a permanent shadowban for that account.

And before you all throw yourselves at the keyboards with all possible explanations for how someone can be falsely accused, or it was legitimate; read the above again. We've passed the realm of chance or coincidence, and entered the realm of "most likely deliberate." Then gone back through this player's logs and found a consistent pattern of the behaviour. We've given them a chance to change that behaviour, and/or contact FDev Support with an explanation after the findings. The pattern has still not changed. That's where we are at. And that's the point where actual sanctions should get implemented.

The onus is on FDev for this though! They have sent out letters similar to the ones I describe above, but there have been an extremely low report-rate of people actually getting shadowbanned. That is not common for an online game if people are actually getting banned. This is also one of the reasons why we are in the 5-for-1 debacle right now, because FDev have never shown the will or effort to do anything about it except talk. There have been little to no substance behind their words of "exiting the game ungracefully is not condoned." That needs to change. Talk the talk, and then make sure you walk the walk as well!

^^This is how i would also deal with combat logging

REP +
 
What a grand idea! I lose connection for any period of time, in my control or not, thus I must stay off of the game longer. Yea, can we not go with this one, please?

I completely agree. I lose connection from the game quite regularly. Not yet during a PvP encounter fortunately, though I have crashed a couple of times just by scanning a CMDR.
 
Maybe people wouldn't combat log, if they didn't risk losing hours if not HUNDREDS of hours because of one griefer.

My ship's rebuy cost is over 30m. That reprensents about 6hrs of legit "fun" game time (I do not personally consider trading or exploiting the missions system to be fun). Which means that taking risks with it is a big no no.
Maybe tweak the pvp rebuy cost if you wish to see people not combat logging. Because until then, I'll be doing anything to save my Elite crewmember (worth a good 30ish hours of grind).

It's a bit sad to have to play solo-fleetcom to avoid that :/
 
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I'm afraid that a fair degree of logging is neither innocent escaping overwhelming evil, nor evil escaping justice. It's, for example, Powerplayer escaping Powerplayer: straight up cheating, pure and simple.

EDIT: I would like to add, concerning my Powerplay example, that in my own lengthy experience, said loggers are very much a minority. The reason I add this is that although I know others have had a much more negative experience, my own experience has always been that the vast majority of the player base are honourable pilots - however much I might decry the minority.

Fair point, I don't tend to think of Powerplay during these discussions since it isn't often brought up. Although my preference would be for some nuance to be introduced into PP rules of engagement, where being engaged in a PP activity (and maybe being in enemy territory at any time) is what makes you a legitimate target, rather than merely being pledged while minding your own business. That would probably have to go hand-in-hand with changes encouraging more people to spend time actually playing PP, but I digress.

Powerplay-specific issues aside, your edit captures what I'm getting at quite nicely. You're not setting out to ruin other players' experience of the game, so most people you interact with are happy to play with you. Logging mostly happens when one party to an interaction (maybe the logger, maybe not) is already playing the game in bad faith.
 
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Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
Maybe people wouldn't combat log, if they didn't risk losing hours if not HUNDREDS of hours because of one griefer.
Oh, ! Some of the most prolific combatloggers are noobkillers in Eravate. Their logging has nothing to do with the hundreds of hours their losing.
 
I've got a better one then, every time someone combat logs, Ozram forfeits a portion of his bankroll equal to their rebuy.

Yeah? I like it.

Not sure what the point of that statement was. No feelings or opinions on what you wrote one way or another. Could you clarify what you're getting at?
 

Deleted member 115407

D
Not sure what the point of that statement was. No feelings or opinions on what you wrote one way or another. Could you clarify what you're getting at?

A poor attempt at comedy. This forum has been so cutthroat today that I thought we needed a little lightheartedness. :)
 
A poor attempt at comedy. This forum has been so cutthroat today that I thought we needed a little lightheartedness. :)

Ah, sorry. My daughter was crying for twenty minutes straight and I just got back home. My brain is still realigning. Anyway, I do think something should be done about it so long as it's actual combat loggers getting the punishment, as opposed to the innocent drops. I pay for the "best" connection available where I live and right now my internet is out and I don't know for how long!
 
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you know what? Up until about 2 months ago, I would have been totally onboard with combat log punishment.

Now, though...

And here's why. At my new residence, there is no ethernet cable to my room, and wifi is not good enough to reach my room, despite having upgraded the system with Mikrotik and Ruckus. Let's just say, when it comes to houses, they don't build 'em like they used to!

So, I'm relying on an Ethernet over Power connection, and the reliability is maddening. It has a habit of disconnecting me just prior to taking down an Elite Cutter, after spending a good 15 minutes taking down the shields in my Vulture. Or just as I complete a mission. Or just as I am about to explode. I have had more than 10 disconnects in the last 2 days, and it always seems to happen at some critical point, like the time that the game checks with the transaction server is exactly the moment when something is about to go boom (either something else, or you).

I'm not a logger, but I bet it would sure look like it were I to come up against a another CMDR and the same thing took place, and I have no clue how I'd prove otherwise, short of setting up video cameras to record me playing the game.

Z...
 
Is there though?
<snip>

This pretty much says it all. The only thing I'd like to suggest in addition is some in-game education. If there was an ungraceful exit or connection loss during combat then there could be a friendly message in your Inbox reminding you that deliberate action of such nature is against the TOS. This can happen without any involvement by FDev on every occasion. Raising awareness that CL-ing is a big no-no may well stop some up and coming CLers in their tracks and guide them unto the path of righteousness.
 
I think we can be a little more gracious about this, CLing is a thing, and cannot be prevented. It can & should be discouraged though.

It can't be prevented short of someone coming round to the player's house and standing over themn ready to intervene as they do it. When I say a player 'can't' do it, I mean in accordance with the rules. They still don't absolve themselves from the rule by doing it, which is what the player I was addressing was arguing - that the rules just don't apply to him because he's special. It just means he's breaking them. It's his refusal to accept that they a) exist and b) apply to him that I find bizarre.
 
So not during a 15sec timer event then?
I don't get what you are saying.

But if the game was to keep a copy of your ship around for 15 seconds after you disconnect, and if someone (including a station) destroys it in that time, the game should record this and send you to the rebuy screen on login. I have no problem with this. Though I suspect that it would be fairly simple to exploit for griefing.
 
you know what? Up until about 2 months ago, I would have been totally onboard with combat log punishment.

Now, though...

And here's why. At my new residence, there is no ethernet cable to my room, and wifi is not good enough to reach my room, despite having upgraded the system with Mikrotik and Ruckus. Let's just say, when it comes to houses, they don't build 'em like they used to!

So, I'm relying on an Ethernet over Power connection, and the reliability is maddening. It has a habit of disconnecting me just prior to taking down an Elite Cutter, after spending a good 15 minutes taking down the shields in my Vulture. Or just as I complete a mission. Or just as I am about to explode. I have had more than 10 disconnects in the last 2 days, and it always seems to happen at some critical point, like the time that the game checks with the transaction server is exactly the moment when something is about to go boom (either something else, or you).

I'm not a logger, but I bet it would sure look like it were I to come up against a another CMDR and the same thing took place, and I have no clue how I'd prove otherwise, short of setting up video cameras to record me playing the game.

Z...

It might look that way to him (which obviously risks you getting put on a KoS list...) but as I and a few others have pointed out it wouldn't look like that to FDev because on checking the logs, your pattern of disconnects would show that you weren't only disconnecting at the critical point of pvp combat. Yes, there shouldn't really be a distinction between pvp and pve since logging is logging, but in the real world I think I know which one most players are concerned about. In particular, if you're dropping connection at points when the server is trying to send information that too will be noticeable from the game logs. This is something else to remember - if we can think of these scenarios and factor them in, I'd damn sure that professionals working for a game developer can.

Yes, someone could start just pulling the plug randomly every 20 minutes whilst they're playing and honestly, if someone is prepared to go to those lengths I think all you can really do is shake your head and move on.
 
Yes, someone could start just pulling the plug randomly every 20 minutes whilst they're playing and honestly, if someone is prepared to go to those lengths I think all you can really do is shake your head and move on.

Or they could just sign up with an el-cheapo ISP that does all that for them automatically :)

I've been trying to help my friend for the best part of this evening - watching their ADSL drop like a ton of bricks as soon as it even gets a faint whiff of a packet.
 
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