No, I wasnt suggesting you condone cheating. And the credit exploits have been going on for years, that is a fact, I thought it was all common knowledge. We shall have to agree to disagree on who is an authority on what is considered cheating although FD is the only developer I know of that seemingly couldn't care less. Other, professional, studios dont tolerate it and for good reason.
Combat Logging
- Thread starter mephisto9466
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No, I wasnt suggesting you condone cheating. And the credit exploits have been going on for years, that is a fact, I thought it was all common knowledge. We shall have to agree to disagree on who is an authority on what is considered cheating although FD is the only developer I know of that seemingly couldn't care less. Other, professional, studios dont tolerate it and for good reason.
FWIW, the post where FDev explain their actions does provide a hypothetical example which agrees with bigity.
Hypothetical.
I'll give you that it was possible that a cheat's fleet had a mix of legal and illegal G5 modules. Or a mix of G5 illegal and G3 or G4 legal modules.
However, I'll still say it is extremely improbable that if a cheat had several ships with G5 DD, for instance, that even a single one was gained legally. Neither would a cheat leave a legal G3 if *another* illegal G5 was within grasp. It's all so seedy.
So I still believe that the cheats never really had anything taken away that wasn't illegally obtained. And that the removal of illegal modules was all that happened. There was no extra punishment involved, merely a return to the status quo.
Hope that makes more sense and is more agreeable to you... All I'm saying is that it is extremely unlikely that anything legally obtained was removed, and even if there were, it doesn't really add much in the way of punishment.
Cheerz
Mark H
Whether CQC uses a players main account fleet or not is largely irrelevant.
You say it is "a" PvP Mode.
I agree.
Further, it being the "only" PvP-only Mode, then it is strictly speaking "the" PvP-only Mode.
Or am I missing something?
Sorry for the late reply but I didn't see this.
That was my point.
You can't rock up at a tennis court, put on your shorts, get out your raquet, play for a couple of hours and then, when it's apparent you're going to lose, try to opt-out in a way that renders the match void.
If you opt-out, you will lose and the other player will win.
Losing means you forfeit the prize money and winning means the other guy gets it instead.
And then, beyond that, the outcome of the match might mean that you drop down the rank table and your opponent rises up it.
Same thing applies in ED.
When you decide to play in Open mode you are, effectively "rocking up at the tennis court, putting on your shorts and getting out your raquet".
And, as you say, in that situation a person who forfeits the "match" should actually lose and the other person should win.
The match shouldn't just end with no declared result.
I don't have any problem with people ending combat via any means that involves piloting their ship.
In context, successfully doing that is a "win" for the target and a "loss" for the attacker.
When you exit the game mid-combat, however, you are "forfeiting the match" and that should be considered a "win" for the other guy, both in personal terms (loot, bounties etc) and in broader terms (BGS, Powerplay, CG goals etc) too.
The one GIGANTIC problem I have with all this is that, in my experience, the game is likely to hang during transitions so, as a target, I might have "won" the encounter by successfully high-waking but then the game will hang and I might be considered the "loser" because I quit out of the game.
Any kind of "fix" for CLing needs to be able to positively confirm that a player quit the game rather than the game hung.
Maybe this could be achieved via some kind of log file which records server errors and connection status and uses that information to decide what happened?
If I task-kill then no log-file will be generated.
If I yank a cable then the log-file would record a server error and no internet connection.
Both of these would indicate CLing.
If, OTOH, the log-file records a server error AND records that an internet connection is still present then it would suggest the game screwed-up through no fault of the player.
Course, what the game would then do about it is anybody's guess.
Bad analogy, cos pvp is inherently unfair. A tennis match is inherently fair. If you changed tennis so one guy was firing balls at the other and if he hits him twice he wins, whereas if the opponent successfully dodges every shot, we call it a draw. Or see my analogy of a heavyweight boxer going to a shopping center and randomly beating people up because if they can't run fast enough they deserve it. It's ridiculous and unfair from BOTH sides.
Oh, I agree that I doubt many of those people lost a lot of stuff they legitimately earned.
TBH, I suspect that FDev's actions were more a result of expediency than any desire to levy a "punishment".
It was probably just easier to delete every type of module where a dodgy example was found instead of checking through hundreds of modules (don't forget, we're not just talking about up to 64 stored modules here. We're talking about potentially hundreds fitted to ships too) individually.
You think it's "fair" when somebody like Serena Williams shows up at Wimbledon and goes into a 1st round match against Jane Bloggs?
When a player signs up for a tournament like Wimbledon, 90% of them know that they're probably going to have their butts handed to them within the first couple of matches.
Again, same thing applies in ED.
When you click that "Open" button you are, effectively, "signing up for Wimbledon".
You're agreeing with each other while trying really hard to disagree.
Watchdog.exe would still be running and able to monitor the status of the NIC at that point, wether media disconnected or no valid IP from cable pull, or switch power off, or if the client was killed. These are all events the OS makes available for monitoring by Watchdog.exe.
Unplugging your PC, triggering a hard crash by outrageous overclock, overloading your PSU etc are all events that happen "under" the level of inspection, but will still get picked up as unexpected shutdowns that may, or may not, point to nefarious logging activity.
Sorry for the late reply but I didn't see this.
That was my point.
You can't rock up at a tennis court, put on your shorts, get out your raquet, play for a couple of hours and then, when it's apparent you're going to lose, try to opt-out in a way that renders the match void.
If you opt-out, you will lose and the other player will win.
Losing means you forfeit the prize money and winning means the other guy gets it instead.
And then, beyond that, the outcome of the match might mean that you drop down the rank table and your opponent rises up it.
Same thing applies in ED.
When you decide to play in Open mode you are, effectively "rocking up at the tennis court, putting on your shorts and getting out your raquet".
And, as you say, in that situation a person who forfeits the "match" should actually lose and the other person should win.
The match shouldn't just end with no declared result.
I don't have any problem with people ending combat via any means that involves piloting their ship.
In context, successfully doing that is a "win" for the target and a "loss" for the attacker.
When you exit the game mid-combat, however, you are "forfeiting the match" and that should be considered a "win" for the other guy, both in personal terms (loot, bounties etc) and in broader terms (BGS, Powerplay, CG goals etc) too.
The one GIGANTIC problem I have with all this is that, in my experience, the game is likely to hang during transitions so, as a target, I might have "won" the encounter by successfully high-waking but then the game will hang and I might be considered the "loser" because I quit out of the game.
Any kind of "fix" for CLing needs to be able to positively confirm that a player quit the game rather than the game hung.
Maybe this could be achieved via some kind of log file which records server errors and connection status and uses that information to decide what happened?
If I task-kill then no log-file will be generated.
If I yank a cable then the log-file would record a server error and no internet connection.
Both of these would indicate CLing.
If, OTOH, the log-file records a server error AND records that an internet connection is still present then it would suggest the game screwed-up through no fault of the player.
Course, what the game would then do about it is anybody's guess.
OK I'll humour you.
A Clean player is at a BH CG and gets attacked by another player. (for *some* reason)
The attacked player realises it is a player attack and menu logs.
In this case the attacking player has won. In game terms, the attacking player must have been playing some "role" in the game which means that the Clean player now not being in the BH location- he can no longer gain any more bounty vouchers. So the Clean player has lost that opportunity. A tangible loss. Perhaps they also suffered damage. Another tangible loss of Cr.
*OR* - is the attacking player demanding that the Clean player is destroyed and encounters the re-buy screen, because that is the attacking players version of the other guy losing to him. (surely that is an out-of-game reason and has no real place in the tennis match analogy.)
Or a Clean player in a conflict zone. Another player joins the instance - sees another CMDR - and deliberately joins the other faction just because this way they get to fight another CMDR with PvP combat. Goody. (Naturally, the attacking player is in a more powerful ship!) The Clean player menu logs. He has been forced to flee and has therefore lost and has therefore forfeited the opportunity to gain any more Combat Bonds. Even if he kept any already gained Combat Bonds - when turned in the BGS effect is lesser. Perhaps they also escaped with damage and this incurs a loss of Cr.
*OR* - is the attacking player demanding that the Clean player is destroyed and *must* encounter the re-buy screen, because that is the attacking players version of the other guy losing to him. (surely that is an out-of-game reason and has no real place in the tennis match analogy.)
I could go on with other examples that demonstrate that the Clean player who uses menu log - or high wake - or low wake - has actually lost out on something tangible as well as any role-play in-game reasons you wish to butter on top.
If I may, though, much of this talk of tennis considers there is some kind of level playing court. Tennis matches and tournaments are mostly played by players of equivalent-ish ability and absolutely with equal equipment. Now if a Pro Tennis player grabbed *me* and coerced me to play tennis in my work boots and coveralls and an old wooden bat, while he uses shorts and trainers and a superior racquet... I'm a certain loser after losing 2 sets 6-0, 6-0. I may use the equivalent of a menu log when I realise my arm no longer has any strength in it and I walk off the court and have lost the match. The Pro doesn't need to see me lose the final set. He knows he is better equipped and better trained, but will definitely not insist I stay to the conclusion if I'm not enjoying the game. He considers that he won the match and that is all that he requires. Whether I walk off the side of the court or the back of the court or run and jump over the net toward him, is utterly irrelevant. High wake. Low wake. Menu Log. Irrelevant. Attacking CMDR takes the metaphorical win.
Well I was in my srv on a mission, trying to find some relay point high up on a +++planet place, I was getting busted up as I looked around and was repair synthing a lot. Wasnt in danger of dying immediately and my ship had been dismissed. Well my nearest and dearest came home and told me to stop. So I had to take a 15second disconnect.
Is that logging? Real life means we need to disengage sometimes and it would take too long to drive out (would have been shot to pieces by system security). When I log back I will be straight into being shot up again, so there you go.
Not sure how to get up to the comms relay, maybe there is a ramp somewhere.
Is that logging? Real life means we need to disengage sometimes and it would take too long to drive out (would have been shot to pieces by system security). When I log back I will be straight into being shot up again, so there you go.
Not sure how to get up to the comms relay, maybe there is a ramp somewhere.
sorry but relying on the accountability of any code running on the client the user has physical access to is just delusional. this is security 101, never ever trust a client. any client.
frontier's watchdog.exe is just a helper app for post mortem diagnosis in a (hopefully) good faith policy, and probably trivial to hack, patch and redistribute.
the sensible and secure way to monitor and log user actions is serverside. oh wait ...
Real life takes precedence over internet space-ships, just laugh contemptuously at anyone who ever tells you different. I menu logged on an NPC anaconda last night rather than risk burning the toad in the hole.
Combat logging would be much less of an issue if the penalty for being destroyed by an attacker wasn't so high in this game. Other games, like World of Warcraft, have tiny, almost non-existent consequences for dying in PVP. Which is why I am happy to play on a PVP server in Wow, but will never play in Open in ED.
Influence effects from combat bonds are actually calculated on a per-transaction basis, rather than a value basis.
Two bonds of ~4,000cr each (shoot a ship-launched fighter), dropped one at a time, are more effective than one drop of 1,000,000cr. Being chased out of a conflict zone by another player is basically good for the faction you're fighting for.
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According to what the devs have said, using the "Exit Game" function and waiting (helplessly) 15 seconds to exit isn't combat logging. Some have used the term "Menu logging," though I'm not sure if that's official or not.
Alt-tabbing and ending the task, pulling your network cord, etc. is considered combat logging by the devs and supposedly they will punish you for it if you're caught.
So Menu logging is legal, and Combat logging isn't. As far as etiquette goes, some people frown on both, others only on true combat logging. So you may get yelled at by other players if you Menu Log, but it's not a punishable offense.
I base all this on reading numerous posts, including responses from moderators and devs, and watching several live streams over the last two years.
The issue is that there is no salt to be mined from you. Your just another useless spacer!
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