Combat Logging

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Stealthie

Stealthie
Rampant said:
OK I'll humour you.

A Clean player is at a BH CG and gets attacked by another player. (for *some* reason)
The attacked player realises it is a player attack and menu logs.
In this case the attacking player has won. In game terms, the attacking player must have been playing some "role" in the game which means that the Clean player now not being in the BH location- he can no longer gain any more bounty vouchers. So the Clean player has lost that opportunity. A tangible loss. Perhaps they also suffered damage. Another tangible loss of Cr.
*OR* - is the attacking player demanding that the Clean player is destroyed and encounters the re-buy screen, because that is the attacking players version of the other guy losing to him. (surely that is an out-of-game reason and has no real place in the tennis match analogy.)

Or a Clean player in a conflict zone. Another player joins the instance - sees another CMDR - and deliberately joins the other faction just because this way they get to fight another CMDR with PvP combat. Goody. (Naturally, the attacking player is in a more powerful ship!) The Clean player menu logs. He has been forced to flee and has therefore lost and has therefore forfeited the opportunity to gain any more Combat Bonds. Even if he kept any already gained Combat Bonds - when turned in the BGS effect is lesser. Perhaps they also escaped with damage and this incurs a loss of Cr.
*OR* - is the attacking player demanding that the Clean player is destroyed and *must* encounter the re-buy screen, because that is the attacking players version of the other guy losing to him. (surely that is an out-of-game reason and has no real place in the tennis match analogy.)

I could go on with other examples that demonstrate that the Clean player who uses menu log - or high wake - or low wake - has actually lost out on something tangible as well as any role-play in-game reasons you wish to butter on top.


If I may, though, much of this talk of tennis considers there is some kind of level playing court. Tennis matches and tournaments are mostly played by players of equivalent-ish ability and absolutely with equal equipment. Now if a Pro Tennis player grabbed *me* and coerced me to play tennis in my work boots and coveralls and an old wooden bat, while he uses shorts and trainers and a superior racquet... I'm a certain loser after losing 2 sets 6-0, 6-0. I may use the equivalent of a menu log when I realise my arm no longer has any strength in it and I walk off the court and have lost the match. The Pro doesn't need to see me lose the final set. He knows he is better equipped and better trained, but will definitely not insist I stay to the conclusion if I'm not enjoying the game. He considers that he won the match and that is all that he requires. Whether I walk off the side of the court or the back of the court or run and jump over the net toward him, is utterly irrelevant. High wake. Low wake. Menu Log. Irrelevant. Attacking CMDR takes the metaphorical win.
Click to expand...

Short answer is that I've got no idea. :)

Honestly, I'm only attempting to establish a common idea of what we're actually discussing rather than attempting to suggest what a reasonable outcome might be.

Clearly, there are some PvPers who consider any combat that doesn't end with a pretty explosion as some kind of gameplay shortcoming.
Equally, there'll be some space-hippies who think they should be able to skip merrily through the daisies, in Open, and then task-kill as soon as some nasty PvPer shoots at them.

Both of these extreme opinions are equally ridiculous.

The facts of the matter are that Open mode allows players to carry out criminal attacks and anybody who plays in Open should accept the possibility of this happening AND that the BGS is common between all modes so people have a right to complain about BGS-related shenanigans being carried out in Solo or PG' where it's impossible to counter them.

Personally, i've never attacked another player as long as I've been playing ED.
I do, however, enjoy the interaction that comes with Open mode so I accept the risk I am taking when I play in Open.
I don't like being interdicted and shot at and I sincerely wish that there were consequences to deter people from random attacks but I'm not going to task-kill or menu-log when I'm attacked because I freely made the choice to play in Open.

The whole thing about getting duffed-up by a boxing champion in a shopping mall, or being forced to play tennis against Rafael Nadal is fallacious because we're not being forced into that potential situation.
We're freely choosing to put ourselves in that position by playing in Open.

Those analogies would be more applicable if you got destroyed while playing in, say, Mobius because you have no reason to expect PvP there.
In Open, I'm afraid you should.

This is a concept that really shouldn't be up for debate.
Bad things can happen in Open.
Accept it.

What we should really be discussing is what can be done to create a more realistic, plausible representation of a functional society, whereby bad things DO happen but the people that do them usually suffer consequences for their actions and most people moderate their behaviour to avoid unwanted attention from the authorities.
 

Rampant

Rampant
the100thmonkey said:
Influence effects from combat bonds are actually calculated on a per-transaction basis, rather than a value basis.

Two bonds of ~4,000cr each (shoot a ship-launched fighter), dropped one at a time, are more effective than one drop of 1,000,000cr. Being chased out of a conflict zone by another player is basically good for the faction you're fighting for.
Click to expand...

Wasn't aware if that my bad. I really thought that a 1,000,000Cr drop plus 4,000 Cr drop was more influence than a 4,000Cr drop plus a 4,000Cr drop.

Thanks for input
 

Rampant

Rampant
Stealthie said:
Short answer is that I've got no idea. :)

Honestly, I'm only attempting to establish a common idea of what we're actually discussing rather than attempting to suggest what a reasonable outcome might be.

Clearly, there are some PvPers who consider any combat that doesn't end with a pretty explosion as some kind of gameplay shortcoming.
Equally, there'll be some space-hippies who think they should be able to skip merrily through the daisies, in Open, and then task-kill as soon as some nasty PvPer shoots at them.

Both of these extreme opinions are equally ridiculous.

The facts of the matter are that Open mode allows players to carry out criminal attacks and anybody who plays in Open should accept the possibility of this happening AND that the BGS is common between all modes so people have a right to complain about BGS-related shenanigans being carried out in Solo or PG' where it's impossible to counter them.

Personally, i've never attacked another player as long as I've been playing ED.
I do, however, enjoy the interaction that comes with Open mode so I accept the risk I am taking when I play in Open.
I don't like being interdicted and shot at and I sincerely wish that there were consequences to deter people from random attacks but I'm not going to task-kill or menu-log when I'm attacked because I freely made the choice to play in Open.

The whole thing about getting duffed-up by a boxing champion in a shopping mall, or being forced to play tennis against Rafael Nadal is fallacious because we're not being forced into that potential situation.
We're freely choosing to put ourselves in that position by playing in Open.

Those analogies would be more applicable if you got destroyed while playing in, say, Mobius because you have no reason to expect PvP there.
In Open, I'm afraid you should.

This is a concept that really shouldn't be up for debate.
Bad things can happen in Open.
Accept it.

What we should really be discussing is what can be done to create a more realistic, plausible representation of a functional society, whereby bad things DO happen but the people that do them usually suffer consequences for their actions and most people moderate their behaviour to avoid unwanted attention from the authorities.
Click to expand...


Much rep+++ given.

Good post.
 

Shinji Ikari

Shinji Ikari
Stealthie said:
You think it's "fair" when somebody like Serena Williams shows up at Wimbledon and goes into a 1st round match against Jane Bloggs?

When a player signs up for a tournament like Wimbledon, 90% of them know that they're probably going to have their butts handed to them within the first couple of matches.

Again, same thing applies in ED.
When you click that "Open" button you are, effectively, "signing up for Wimbledon".
Click to expand...

Except in tennis, there is public. Either way, in chess you can resign in any moment of the match and there’s nothing wrong about it so there are analogies for and against Clog.
 

IndigoWyrd

IndigoWyrd
As always, the only solution is to replace the ship just disappearing with a ship explosion animation.
Attacker sees that they've "won", gets all the same things they would otherwise receive from blowing up a ship (aka nothing), and these kinds of posts vanish.

Everybody wins.

Or, Frontier makes enough money that they can afford to dispatch a Monitoring Supervisor to every player's physical location to ensure they do not pull the plug, kill a task, memory edit windows to generate an application crash, DoS their own connection, or someone else's or otherwise "cheat", and these kinds of threads go away. I'm banking on the first solution being far more practical.
 

Tuzmaal

Tuzmaal
Stealthie said:
Equally, there'll be some space-hippies
Click to expand...

This was the first that came to my mind:

image.php
 

Deleted member 110222

D
Stealthie said:
Me too. :p

Which, to be completely clear, is not to say that I think ziggy is one of these oddballs who'd be outraged at the possibility of being attacked in Open, of course. [up]
Click to expand...

To be fair, I think he's stated several times that he doesn't play in Open.

Which is fair enough. Not really anything that can be said against that LOL.
 

RidingTheFlow

RidingTheFlow
IndigoWyrd said:
As always, the only solution is to replace the ship just disappearing with a ship explosion animation.
Attacker sees that they've "won", gets all the same things they would otherwise receive from blowing up a ship (aka nothing), and these kinds of posts vanish.
Click to expand...
Lol, this is brilliant idea! Rep'ed.

They could actually make attacker side see the disconnected ship as losing pilot - so attacker is free to blow it up. The logged out person will not see it same way and not actually lose anything, but who cares - as you said, from game standpoint they are hardly affected ;)
 

Ozram

Ozram
RidingTheFlow said:
Lol, this is brilliant idea! Rep'ed.

They could actually make attacker side see the disconnected ship as losing pilot - so attacker is free to blow it up. The logged out person will not see it same way and not actually lose anything, but who cares - as you said, from game standpoint they are hardly affected ;)
Click to expand...
Brilliant, except for when it’s people who are combat ready and do it intentionally so they can log back in and continue fighting. Wouldn’t that be nice? You see the ship explode and then when you move on to the next ship they reappear behind you with all their damage and shields restored and open up. Great stuff!
 

znôrt

znôrt
IndigoWyrd said:
As always, the only solution is to replace the ship just disappearing with a ship explosion animation.
Attacker sees that they've "won", gets all the same things they would otherwise receive from blowing up a ship (aka nothing), and these kinds of posts vanish.

Everybody wins.

Or, Frontier makes enough money that they can afford to dispatch a Monitoring Supervisor to every player's physical location to ensure they do not pull the plug, kill a task, memory edit windows to generate an application crash, DoS their own connection, or someone else's or otherwise "cheat", and these kinds of threads go away. I'm banking on the first solution being far more practical.
Click to expand...

or ... what about frontier fixing their crappy code once and for all (like any half serious mmo does) and impersonates your toon to be diligently gutted in space, as it should be?
 
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