Confusion Regarding the Retreat State

[Acroci]

I have confusion regarding the retreat state and how it is used to force factions out of a system. My group is supporting the controlling faction of a system which contains a couple orbital stations and a single planetary base. Our faction controls both orbital stations, while another faction (the one we are attempting to kick out) holds the base.

My current understanding of the system is that if a faction's influence is low enough they will be forced into a retreat state. When they go into retreat, it will run for a few days (I believe 5 after pending) to allow them time to recover from retreat or be removed from the system. I do not know what the exact retreat triggering threshold is (<2.5%?), but I remember reading the "recovery" threshold is >5%, and if this is hit the retreat will automatically "fail". Additionally if they exit the retreat state below 2.5% the retreat will succeed and they will be removed from the system.

The faction we are trying to evict went into retreat state. At this point we made extra efforts to lower their influence by destroying their ships and smuggling goods into their aforementioned base; while also boosting our influence hoping "every little bit" would help. Their influence fluctuated a few times during the days spent in retreat, however they exited retreat (on Friday) at 1.4% influence; while never rising close to 5%.

The faction was not removed from the system, and currently sits at 1.2% influence.


It is my understanding they should have retreated from the system. Is there anything we are doing wrong, and how can we ensure the next retreat is successful?

 

[Jane Turner]

The retreat state is a tricky beast. You will hear different things from different groups and quite a lot of "superstition". Our line on it is this:

You need to keep the faction you want out below 2.5% on the day before the state clears. Be careful also that 2.5 might actually be 2.501. Its a bit like wars, where the outcome is decided the day before the state ends, but there is the added complexity that a war or election may end it early, so the penultimate day can also be the 1st day or the day before the retreat starts.

I expect the AEDC have the best data on retreats.

 

[Roybe]

You cannot cause a retreat on a faction that originated within the system.

You have to war/elect them out of the last station.

 

[Acroci]

The retreat state is a tricky beast. You will hear different things from different groups and quite a lot of "superstition". Our line on it is this:

You need to keep the faction you want out below 2.5% on the day before the state clears. Be careful also that 2.5 might actually be 2.501. Its a bit like wars, where the outcome is decided the day before the state ends, but there is the added complexity that a war or election may end it early, so the penultimate day can also be the 1st day or the day before the retreat starts.

I expect the AEDC have the best data on retreats.

Okay, that doesn't make sense (deciding the day before) but does make sense on how to ensure they are removed. I think their influence was 3.x% or something on the day before retreat completed, so if that is the figure taken into account their retreat did fail due to rising above the 2.5% requirement. Maybe we can keep them close to the current 1.2% and force another retreat in the coming days/weeks. Thanks for the help.

You cannot cause a retreat on a faction that originated within the system.

You have to war/elect them out of the last station.

Thanks for the tip. Fortunately the faction we are trying to remove did not originate in our system, so we will be able to remove them entirely by forcing retreat.

 

[Dommarraa]

And sometimes, it just takes longer than it should. Seen them go 8 days before resolving themselves. No idea why, nothing in the known rules even suggests a way to prolong a "Movement" state.

Lots (if not all) of the states that require a specific % use the value at the beginning of the tick, and it appears as resolved the next tick.

 

[Schlack]

The faction we are trying to evict went into retreat state. At this point we made extra efforts to lower their influence by destroying their ships ?

By murdering their ships you may have been actively working against yourself resulting in the fluctuations. Murder in the ruling factions jurisdiction hurts ruling faction far more that the hit for the target faction. Some in-game information is misleading in this regard.

I'm not the a retreat expert so others can confirm the precise mechanics. My understanding is that if the faction is above 2.5% on the retreat day that it will not retreat. As stated above this retreat day is not the final day where retreat is active (much like the last non war day of war). We have also noted that retreat has something of a variable active period.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

My experience of Retreat is as follows:

- a Retreat will go Pending if a faction is:
-- in a system with >= 4 factions
-- is not native to that system
-- does not already have a Pending Retreat
-- falls to 2.5% influence or lower

- a Retreat will go Active at some point after it goes Pending
-- when the faction is no longer in an Expansion, War or Election state

- once the Retreat is Active it will last
-- 5 days
-- until a War or Election state goes active
...whichever comes first
-- getting above 5% does not end the Retreat early (indeed, if the retreat went pending while a conflict was ongoing and was delayed for it to be over, the faction can spend the entire retreat phase a long way above 5%)

- if the faction has <2.5% (or perhaps <= but with rounding it's hard to tell) influence in the system the Retreat is occurring when the Retreat ends, it will leave the system.


In your case, given what you've described, I'd be asking "are you absolutely certain that the Retreat applied to your system and not a different one" - you can check in local Galnet if it's not been too long - it'll say "Retreat is now complete from <your system>|<somewhere else>" or similar in the faction status.

 

[Walter2]

In your case, given what you've described, I'd be asking "are you absolutely certain that the Retreat applied to your system and not a different one" - you can check in local Galnet if it's not been too long - it'll say "Retreat is now complete from <your system>|<somewhere else>" or similar in the faction status.

Definitely this. It must be the first criterion to be checked, otherwise you can waste time and resources on a faction in one system only to find it leaving another.

 

[Acroci]

And sometimes, it just takes longer than it should. Seen them go 8 days before resolving themselves. No idea why, nothing in the known rules even suggests a way to prolong a "Movement" state.

Lots (if not all) of the states that require a specific % use the value at the beginning of the tick, and it appears as resolved the next tick.

Interesting. So if I'm understanding your first point correctly, even if a retreat (or other) state is successful it has a chance of not resolving straight away? As in even if this retreat were successful it may have taken a day or two for them to actually pack up and leave?

I'll keep in mind (and update my group) that the starting state percentages values are used rather than the ending ones. I think that's what Jane Turner was saying as well, so it's good to have multiple confirmations.

By murdering their ships you may have been actively working against yourself resulting in the fluctuations. Murder in the ruling factions jurisdiction hurts ruling faction far more that the hit for the target faction. Some in-game information is misleading in this regard.

I'm not the a retreat expert so others can confirm the precise mechanics. My understanding is that if the faction is above 2.5% on the retreat day that it will not retreat. As stated above this retreat day is not the final day where retreat is active (much like the last non war day of war). We have also noted that retreat has something of a variable active period.

That murder information definitely is misleading, although it does make sense. While I do not attack clean ships myself, I'll make sure none of my commanders are as well. We don't want to hurt ourselves when trying to evict the others.

You seem to confirm Dommarraa and Jane's information regarding the "effective" influence value for a state being the end of day before. It makes it a little more difficult, but not impossible; especially now that we know what to expect which is always the most important thing. I am not really concerned which day's value is taken into account as long as I know which day's value is taken into account. Albeit it would make more sense to have the "ending" value be the relevant one.

My experience of Retreat is as follows:

- a Retreat will go Pending if a faction is:
-- in a system with >= 4 factions
-- is not native to that system
-- does not already have a Pending Retreat
-- falls to 2.5% influence or lower

- a Retreat will go Active at some point after it goes Pending
-- when the faction is no longer in an Expansion, War or Election state

- once the Retreat is Active it will last
-- 5 days
-- until a War or Election state goes active
...whichever comes first
-- getting above 5% does not end the Retreat early (indeed, if the retreat went pending while a conflict was ongoing and was delayed for it to be over, the faction can spend the entire retreat phase a long way above 5%)

- if the faction has <2.5% (or perhaps <= but with rounding it's hard to tell) influence in the system the Retreat is occurring when the Retreat ends, it will leave the system.


In your case, given what you've described, I'd be asking "are you absolutely certain that the Retreat applied to your system and not a different one" - you can check in local Galnet if it's not been too long - it'll say "Retreat is now complete from <your system>|<somewhere else>" or similar in the faction status.

Doncaster, this is great information. Thanks! I'll add this to a wing doc on our Inara page.

I am 100% certain the faction was in a retreat from our system. The System Map, Faction System Status Panel, and GalNet Faction Summary all indicated the faction was in a retreat from our system. The most confusing part for me was on the last day the Faction Summary said "Faction Influence 1.4%; Retreat from System complete." To me, that last bit indicated the faction should have been removed with the verbiage stating the retreat was completed. I would have expected it to say "Retreat from System failed" if they were to remain in the system. I do have a screenshot somewhere.

 

[Acroci]

Definitely this. It must be the first criterion to be checked, otherwise you can waste time and resources on a faction in one system only to find it leaving another.

Oh I agree completely. This was the first thing we verified. While hurting their influence in our system is always good, it would be wasted if they were busy retreating somewhere else.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The System Map, Faction System Status Panel, and GalNet Faction Summary all indicated the faction was in a retreat from our system. The most confusing part for me was on the last day the Faction Summary said "Faction Influence 1.4%; Retreat from System complete."

Slightly irritatingly, it says "complete" regardless of whether the retreat state resolved in it staying or it leaving...

System Map and Faction System Status Panel are useless for this, by the way - Retreat shows up as a global state, so a faction in Retreat appears to be in Retreat everywhere, including its home system - but the Galnet Faction Summary should be accurate.

 

[Dommarraa]

Interesting. So if I'm understanding your first point correctly, even if a retreat (or other) state is successful it has a chance of not resolving straight away? As in even if this retreat were successful it may have taken a day or two for them to actually pack up and leave?

We have no idea if it was actually successful on day 5, and just took a long time to resolve. What we and a few others have observed is that the "5 days active" rule, is more of a guideline (with a Pirate accent). We kept a retreating faction below 2.5% every day, but it nothing happened till day 8. If you want someone to retreat, keep on hammering them until they do, dont leave it to expectation.
We had to do lots of very complicated Retreats and other actions to take control of Khun. We could have written a Phd paper on it.

 

[Schlack]

If you want someone to retreat, keep on hammering them until they do, dont leave it to expectation.

This!

 

[Starwolfe]

WeIf you want someone to retreat, keep on hammering them until they do, dont leave it to expectation.

I also agree with this.

Leaving it to chance is leaving it able to fail.

 

[Acroci]

Slightly irritatingly, it says "complete" regardless of whether the retreat state resolved in it staying or it leaving...

System Map and Faction System Status Panel are useless for this, by the way - Retreat shows up as a global state, so a faction in Retreat appears to be in Retreat everywhere, including its home system - but the Galnet Faction Summary should be accurate.

It seems more confusing the System Status Panel could show them in retreat even if it isn't for the system the player is currently in; however for this instance (and all BGS) I doubly confirmed the retreat state in the GalNet Faction Summary, so it was for our system (which is not their "home").

We have no idea if it was actually successful on day 5, and just took a long time to resolve. What we and a few others have observed is that the "5 days active" rule, is more of a guideline (with a Pirate accent). We kept a retreating faction below 2.5% every day, but it nothing happened till day 8. If you want someone to retreat, keep on hammering them until they do, dont leave it to expectation.
We had to do lots of very complicated Retreats and other actions to take control of Khun. We could have written a Phd paper on it.

They've fallen another 0.2% since the retreat "ended" so we'll keep the pressure on to ensure their influence doesn't rise above the magical 2.5% figure. Even if it doesn't end up forcing them out because of the most recent retreat state, we should be in a good position to trigger another one after the cooldown (however long that is).

Aside: Great job taking Khun. I was seriously impressed when I heard that happened.

 

[Jane Turner]

Look for kill x faction pirate missions in neighbouring systems - that way you can get the bounty benefit for yourslelves and give them ship losses. Most likely to spawn at ground station

 

[Acroci]

Look for kill x faction pirate missions in neighbouring systems - that way you can get the bounty benefit for yourslelves and give them ship losses. Most likely to spawn at ground station

I never thought to do this, but that's fantastic! The more combat-focused pilots in my group will love this idea. Would these missions be more likely to spawn (or only spawn) in neighboring systems where the faction also has a presence?

 

[Jane Turner]

The only pattern that I have seen is that they are most often in systems close by and most often at military ground stations... oh and it doesn't matter if you don't complete them - you are looking for bounties and of course spawning of Pirates of the right faction.

 

[Starwolfe]

I did one the other day, but I am still getting my usual wanted target non-influence reaction for doing them. Still is the bounty that's doing the influence in my area, and killing wanted ships aren't effecting influence at all.

 

[Acroci]

The only pattern that I have seen is that they are most often in systems close by and most often at military ground stations... oh and it doesn't matter if you don't complete them - you are looking for bounties and of course spawning of Pirates of the right faction.

Nice. I'll head out to some neighboring systems tonight and see what I can scout out for potential hotbeds.