Crime and Punishment not fit for purpose - needs overhauling

[rootsrat]

Bounties don't tank inf.

Don't they now? Hocus pocus maybe they do if done correctly

Regardless, as mentioned multiple times, this topic is a very broad one and it does indeed affects many aspects of the game, BGS included. Feel free to post your suggestions how to make the C&P system better.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

I'm a leader of a faction that controls the 3rd biggest territory in the game. There are much better ways to tank the INF.

Whoever said anything about tanking INF? Working in favor of a faction that has no bounty hunting spots is extremely tedious in order to collect bounties. Being able to just have some guy murder 20 NPC's, then a full wing getting 80 million bounties issued by the faction would be a fairly OP way of boosting inf

And, I suppose it wouldn't be much of an exploit if the bounty was actually divided vs players (If you have 100 mill bounty and 2 players kill you, 2 get 50 mill) because the dead criminal does have to pay out that bounty in the end when they die

 

[Screemonster]

When you have a fine, however, you can't 'turn yourself in' since it's not a bounty. But you can't pay it off either since your 'notoriety is too high'. Not at the station, nor at interstellar factors. The only way to get rid of a fine while you have notoriety in order to continue to use that particular station is to have them kill you lol. So it's a PITA to have notoriety and no bounties, but you scratch a fat Type 9 on the way out of the mailslot and suddenly you have to die in order to use that station again.

protip: land at an odyssey base they own, shoot the first person you see in the face and incur a 1000cr murder charge that upgrades your fine to a bounty, then get back in your ship.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

protip: land at an odyssey base they own, shoot the first person you see in the face and incur a 1000cr murder charge that upgrades your fine to a bounty, then get back in your ship.

Thanks, I was thinking as I typed it out that maybe I could upgrade it to a bounty and I'll def use this.. It's still kind of silly though how I'd rather have a bounty on my head than a fine for littering

 

[Vandaahl]

Feel free to post your suggestions how to make the C&P system better.

I just did, by not re-introducing crap that has been fixed long ago.

 

[Kira Goto]

I think there was some misconception here about bounty vouchers and the bounties obtained by murder...

... and if the BGS effects were a concern then maybe something could be done that avoids the BGS effect which a removal of a player bounty cap would have? I dunno. Just spitballing a little while mostly reading from the sidelines here.

 

[rootsrat]

I think there was some misconception here about bounty vouchers and the bounties obtained by murder...

Possibly It doesn't matter though, I've been here long enough to know not to engage when "I'm always right" attitude is surfacing slowly but steady... Nevermind, let's just get back on topic.

All in all I think one of the main issues seems to be the fact that C&P system does not differentiate between PVE and PVP bounties, while all the other aspects of the game do make that distinction and treat PVE and PVP slightly differently - from skill level to motives. This seems like an omission - or perhaps a system implemented only partially? (Karma system where are you? Were there other parts we don't know about?).

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

I think there was some misconception here about bounty vouchers and the bounties obtained by murder...

... and if the BGS effects were a concern then maybe something could be done that avoids the BGS effect which a removal of a player bounty cap would have? I dunno. Just spitballing a little while mostly reading from the sidelines here.

There was no confusion, really. When a player kills NPC's or commits crimes, they are given a bounty. That player is wanted and with a bounty. That bounty is issued by a particular minor faction.

If you kill said player, any player that killed them would be awarded bounty vouchers by the faction that issued the bounty in the first place, and you can redeem those to greatly influence the BGS. It takes a long time to gather 80 million bounties. Lots of work and bounty hunting. A player killing 20 NPC's then letting their friends kill them? Doesn't take that long at all. Not to mention plenty of factions straight up do not have bounty hunting grounds like a Res Site or a Compromised NAV beacon

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

Possibly It doesn't matter though, I've been here long enough to know not to engage when "I'm always right" attitude is surfacing slowly but steady... Nevermind, let's just get back on topic.

All in all I think one of the main issues seems to be the fact that C&P system does not differentiate between PVE and PVP bounties, while all the other aspects of the game do make that distinction and treat PVE and PVP slightly differently - from skill level to motives. This seems like an omission - or perhaps a system implemented only partially? (Karma system where are you? Were there other parts we don't know about?).

This would make the most sense. To just have bounties that you earn through killing wanted players not affect the BGS in any way is a simple solution that deals with the exploit for BGS purposes.

For money-making purposes the exploit still exists, but, honestly, it's not even worth worrying about since it's still slower than just making money the normal ways

 

[Kira Goto]

There was no confusion, really. When a player kills NPC's or commits crimes, they are given a bounty. That player is wanted and with a bounty. That bounty is issued by a particular minor faction.

If you kill said player, any player that killed them would be awarded bounty vouchers by the faction that issued the bounty in the first place, and you can redeem those to greatly influence the BGS. It takes a long time to gather 80 million bounties. Lots of work and bounty hunting. A player killing 20 NPC's then letting their friends kill them? Doesn't take that long at all. Not to mention plenty of factions straight up do not have bounty hunting grounds like a Res Site or a Compromised NAV beacon

From rootsrat thinking it was about the bounties awarded on murder, not the voucher which could be claimed by killing the player doing the murdering. Just my observation though.

And thanks, but I've done enough BGS work to know the difference myself. And the time it would take to gather 80 mil worth of vouchers from killing pirates even if you get a megaship spawning scenarios where you can earn them.

 

[KKomrade Sylas]

From rootsrat thinking it was about the bounties awarded on murder, not the voucher which could be claimed by killing the player doing the murdering. Just my observation though.

And thanks, but I've done enough BGS work to know the difference myself. And the time it would take to gather 80 mil worth of vouchers from killing pirates even if you get a megaship spawning scenarios where you can earn them.

I get around 5 to 8 million per scenario, main problem being that they only spawn on certain states. Spent a few days getting a system into boom just to get them, though not to the point here anyway, I'm yapping.

It's just that bounties awarded on you because of murder and bounty vouchers granted by players that kill you are both linked of course

 

[rootsrat]

This would make the most sense. To just have bounties that you earn through killing wanted players not affect the BGS in any way is a simple solution that deals with the exploit for BGS purposes.

For money-making purposes the exploit still exists, but, honestly, it's not even worth worrying about since it's still slower than just making money the normal ways

Precisely! It's a (conceptually, I have no idea about coding side) easy fix that is a no brainer really.

 

[metatheurgist]

No!!!

I'm glad the bounty exploit is finally decimated, and you wanna happily bring it back, lol.

Its not that much work to gather a 20 mil bounty. Now get in a wing of 4, all take a shot at the guy, until he explodes. 5 minutes of work, 80 mil bounties to hand in as a result.

Never again.

Oooo. Magic bounty multiplier. Another thing I really despise, that's C+P adjacent right? So I can moan about that here?

 

[Dragsham]

One extremely simple way of policing ganking is to remove the rebuy 'over time'.
So ganker kills cmdr he gets flagged as notorious which in turn runs out after a few hours or days depending on level of notoriety. Kill again and it's a sliding scale as we all know.
So apply that to rebuy. As notoriety hits 10 (distinction would have to be in place that the victims were cmdrs not npcs), the cmdr is no longer able to insure his ship. No rebuy.
Simples.
Course the devil's in the detail.
How does this system differentiate gankers from pvpers who've consented, or pirates going about their trade?
But if these issues could be addressed via ingame code it would surely stop gankers once & for all. Lose their murder boat, no insurance, their gonner have to buy one and engineer it from scratch.
I'd like to see this in place and yes it's been suggested before but it's possible IF fdev change a few things ingame.
Also... like that other game, just highlight them on the galmap. Filterable of course.
Everytime they log on their shining bright as a button.
Perma noteriety too. All these things are possible, as nothing is impossible. But I get it it's ruddy hard to implement.
Just thought.. "report crimes against me", off which is what l do and most pvpers do when ingame pvping legitimately, assumption is that gankers have this ON. And their victim would have it on by default.
So what if.. assuming its ON. They kill a cmdr, and get fined instantly a substantial sum which is taken out of their bank right there n then?
On a sliding scale to account for "accidents". So a one time accidental killing is fined say 100k. Which is deducted on the spot. Keep killing and obviously its no longer accidents its deliberate and the sliding scale comes into effect resulting in billions deducted per kill. Hehe.?

 

[nemolomen]

I do find it interesting how this opinion has taken root in Elite, because as you point out, in other games people don't complain. But what makes it "part of the game" in those and not Elite? When the game gives you full control over what level of player opposition you might see, why does this keep coming up?

You mention that those games "establish very early on" the stakes, and Elite could certainly do a better job of communicating the power gap between NPCs and players and how to deal with that. But I also wonder if giving that choice did somehow lead to the idea that being completely safe in Solo is the "true" game, and therefore Open is out of place for going against that. The game gives effectively no useful information on how to survive these encounters, yet there's a big button on the main menu that says "never get attacked again". I wonder if those other games would see similar effects if they also included a button to deny all player opposition.

I think, not "I know", this goes all the way back to the kickstarter where all of the "investors" wanted something different...and so to get the investment from the investors, many different play styles were catered to.

I say I think and not "I know" as I've only been around ED for 4 years, and a couple of weeks. I've read words to that effect in other threads on this forum.

Back in fall of 2015, I was looking for a new game, I narrowed it down to two choices. Elite Dangerous and Wasteland 2. Research told me that Elite dangerous had PvP, and I didn't want any part of that, it scared the hell out of me. I've, even to this day, never been a competitively skilled player in any game. Wasteland 2 was purchased.

In mid to late summer 2020, I was looking for a new game...I tried Solar 2, Warframe, Destiny 2, Drifter, Ravensword, Neverwinter, EVE and Everspace over the course of about 4 to 5 weeks, then I "broke down" and tried Elite Dangerous and I remembered playing both Elite on PC in the 80s and Frontier on Amiga in the 90s, and it fit like a glove, and then I got ganked, several times, in different locations (CGs, AXCZ, Deciat, etc...), and I almost quit, that was not fun...so I played in PG, mostly all by myself...

Fast forward to now, I play 99% in Open, I never fight against other players, except among friends, I play a very slow game of progression* and even I am starting to see the seeds of meaningful PvP in my future...someday...today I always run...and I almost always, > 85%, get away...but I also never risk anything when I go to "play with the gankers" either...so its still meaningless...and gets boring quickly...

* I have over 5500 hours of play time, I don't have all of the ships unlocked, I have not unlocked all of the engineers, I have not tried all of the mission types, I have only soloed a cyclops, I've done almost no Ody engineering, etc...

 

[Rubbernuke]

There's no such thing as a fair shot at notoriety in the game.
You can't get notoriety without deserving it.

I still don't really see what you are getting at- however I would say that there should be a 'forgiveness' bracket at not.1 where most people seem to get and panic after an accident.

For that it might be better to see notoriety gain on some sort of curve rather than being 'flat'- so that at the low end its fast to clear but rapidly gets harder to shift further on.

 

[Screemonster]

I still don't really see what you are getting at- however I would say that there should be a 'forgiveness' bracket at not.1 where most people seem to get and panic after an accident.

For that it might be better to see notoriety gain on some sort of curve rather than being 'flat'- so that at the low end its fast to clear but rapidly gets harder to shift further on.

For that they'll have to fix the thing where certain missions ("Settlement massacre" missions in particular) don't apply the Mission Target flag to their targets. You can rack up 2-3 notoriety from a single one of those missions despite everyone being a valid kill.

Regular "massacre" or "assassination" bounties correctly apply bounties but not notoriety for killing them (as has been the case for space mission targets since notoriety became a thing)

 

[Rubbernuke]

For that they'll have to fix the thing where certain missions ("Settlement massacre" missions in particular) don't apply the Mission Target flag to their targets. You can rack up 2-3 notoriety from a single one of those missions despite everyone being a valid kill.

Regular "massacre" or "assassination" bounties correctly apply bounties but not notoriety for killing them (as has been the case for space mission targets since notoriety became a thing)

In my world, such missions would only be available to killers on the criminal path in the BGS and the notoriety would be applied if you are caught (by extension only detection of crimes sticks). Killers should be able to dodge infamy if the are skilled.

I really don't like this 'no notoriety because mission' nonsense.

 

[Screemonster]

In my world, such missions would only be available to killers on the criminal path in the BGS and the notoriety would be applied if you are caught (by extension only detection of crimes sticks). Killers should be able to dodge infamy if the are skilled.

I really don't like this 'no notoriety because mission' nonsense.

Oh absolutely. Get rid of the security panopticon and a lot of these problems just disappear.

If I do an assassination by blowing up a barrel next to the target while remaining unseen on a rooftop with a silenced weapon having arrived at the base by walking in from outside sensor range, there's no way that should be traced back to me. If I just land at the base using my own credentials and shoot the dude in the face in front of a dozen witnesses with the loudest gun ever devised by mankind, on the other hand...

 

[Weps]

On the topic of influence, honest question because I am really not that familiar with th BGS: wouldn’t / shouldn’t this be a zero sum game? Don’t murders lower INF?

E.g. Player B kills NPCs in jurisdiction A, this lowers Faction A INF. Player B allows Player A [Faction A] to claim his bounty, this boosts Faction A INF. Different than wanted NPCs where they just spawn with those bounties.