Crime and Punishment not fit for purpose - needs overhauling

[Ian Doncaster]

All in all I think one of the main issues seems to be the fact that C&P system does not differentiate between PVE and PVP bounties, while all the other aspects of the game do make that distinction and treat PVE and PVP slightly differently - from skill level to motives. This seems like an omission - or perhaps a system implemented only partially?

Separating the two completely I think would be absolutely essential for using any bounty-like mechanism for PvP.

Players wouldn't even see other player's PvE bounties (they'd just appear Clean if they only had that sort) and couldn't claim them; PvP bounties conversely would always be incurred to some virtual faction that doesn't hold territory or influence and can't issue PvE bounties, regardless of the system owner and even in uninhabited space - and therefore wouldn't attract NPC bounty hunters or other PvE consequences.

Probably scrap notoriety entirely and just remove the ability to pay off bounties at an IF entirely as well - you either hand yourself in (which you can't do for PvP bounties) or clear it on death, your choice.

(The PvP bounty would end up being more a flag to say that "this player doesn't look where they're going when docking" than something with actual gameplay consequences, in this model)

On the topic of influence, honest question because I am really not that familiar with th BGS: wouldn’t / shouldn’t this be a zero sum game? Don’t murders lower INF?

E.g. Player B kills NPCs in jurisdiction A, this lowers Faction A INF. Player B allows Player A [Faction A] to claim his bounty, this boosts Faction A INF. Different than wanted NPCs where they just spawn with those bounties.

It's more complicated than that, because the BGS always is

The two big things are that:
- murder and bounties are on separate tracks with their own diminishing returns curves, so the two aren't going to cancel out exactly (which one is bigger will depend on what else happened in the system that day)
- Faction A has a separate jurisdiction and influence track for each system, so the negatives can be incurred in one system and the positives in another (because you don't have to hand the bounties in to the system they were generated in), to the potential "benefit" of both.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Separating the two completely I think would be absolutely essential for using any bounty-like mechanism for PvP.

Players wouldn't even see other player's PvE bounties (they'd just appear Clean if they only had that sort) and couldn't claim them; PvP bounties conversely would always be incurred to some virtual faction that doesn't hold territory or influence and can't issue PvE bounties, regardless of the system owner and even in uninhabited space - and therefore wouldn't attract NPC bounty hunters or other PvE consequences.

Probably scrap notoriety entirely and just remove the ability to pay off bounties at an IF entirely as well - you either hand yourself in (which you can't do for PvP bounties) or clear it on death, your choice.

(The PvP bounty would end up being more a flag to say that "this player doesn't look where they're going when docking" than something with actual gameplay consequences, in this model)

If FD had a consistent approach to lore, these PvP bounties really would be Pilots Fed issued ones and that over a certain threshold the offender would be expelled.

But then I'd be twiddling my pen and think 'so what benefit does the PF have for staying clean?'- rebuys certainly, but I'd also be trying to think of pros and cons for being PF or truly separate- and that perhaps non criminals might actually want to renounce PF membership too.

The more I think about it the more I get depressed about the amount of potential thrown away here. Done right you'd have lore, C+P, BGS and gameplay all in lockstep.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

but I'd also be trying to think of pros and cons

This is always the problem with "Crime and" in the Elite setting - same with the first three games, and it feels very similar in even vaguely-Elite-like games like NMS or the X series too - yes, crimes and criminals exist, but the clear intention is for them to primarily be EvP to provide opposition (ahem, or targets) to the player, rather than something the player actually does.

The advantages to staying "legal" are obvious:
- authority forces will be neutral or even helpful to you
- no fines or similar to pay off
- full access to lawful-side facilities, which is almost all of them by number

So the advantages to criminal activity need to be substantial to counteract that. Really the game would need to be designed from the ground up the other way round to have PvE crime make sense:
- the majority of activities and all the lucrative ones are criminal
- legal activities are low-paying and mainly for learning basic skills or lying low after something goes wrong or having something to do while back home, you'll never get rich that way
(Odyssey missions sort of go in this direction, but run into multiple problems with the rest of the game not having been built that way in the process)

At the moment the punishment for doing crime in ED is primarily that you could have done something legal instead and earned ten times the reward for half the effort.

 

[aRJay]

If FD had a consistent approach to lore, these PvP bounties really would be Pilots Fed issued ones and that over a certain threshold the offender would be expelled.

But then I'd be twiddling my pen and think 'so what benefit does the PF have for staying clean?'- rebuys certainly, but I'd also be trying to think of pros and cons for being PF or truly separate- and that perhaps non criminals might actually want to renounce PF membership too.

The more I think about it the more I get depressed about the amount of potential thrown away here. Done right you'd have lore, C+P, BGS and gameplay all in lockstep.

The concern if they are all in lockstep is would there be room for a player to play their own way or would they also have to be in step.

 

[nemolomen]

Plus this is a game, not real life. Everyone has access to the tools they need, they just have to use them.

One can lead a horse to water but can't force them to drink it...

Elite Dangerous advertises itself as a game that one can play on one's own terms, even if one wants to ignore 90% of the game and only concentrate on the 10% one actually likes.

Its like CGs, where many players will always choose the low hanging fruit or the shiny...myself included in many cases...

 

[SergMx]

I still don't really see what you are getting at- however I would say that there should be a 'forgiveness' bracket at not.1 where most people seem to get and panic after an accident.

For that it might be better to see notoriety gain on some sort of curve rather than being 'flat'- so that at the low end its fast to clear but rapidly gets harder to shift further on.

You don't earn NOTORIETY by accident. You know exactly when you're getting it and it's your choice.

As written above people don't play 24 hours a day, they still sleep. Based on this, there is a complete lack of punishment in the game, as it disappears on its own.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The concern if they are all in lockstep is would there be room for a player to play their own way or would they also have to be in step.

What I mean is, you have gameplay that backs up lore that feeds into the BGS- say for example you could be part of the PF or The Club with corresponding perks and areas you can go. So if you are goody goody PF you have one set of perks (Shin D, rebuys etc) while the Club might offer other places and things.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You don't earn NOTORIETY by accident. You know exactly when you're getting it and it's your choice.

You do, sometimes- people ding other ships, they blow up and the 'kill' goes to them with the notoriety.

 

[Greasetrap42]

You don't earn NOTORIETY by accident. You know exactly when you're getting it and it's your choice.

Like when a low health NPC ship zips between a cmdr and the target they are actively firing at?

 

[Greasetrap42]

It would be nice if your standing with a faction acted as a modifier to fines and notoriety.

Super friendly status = less fines and more forgiveness
Unfriendly status = full fines and no forgiveness. The smallest most unlucky 'crime' get full weight of the law.

 

[nemolomen]

nvm...

 

[SergMx]

You do, sometimes- people ding other ships, they blow up and the 'kill' goes to them with the notoriety.

Like when a low health NPC ship zips between a cmdr and the target they are actively firing at?

If you put your fire somewhere else when firing, it's your own fault. And don't call it an accident

 

[Rubbernuke]

If you put your fire somewhere else when firing, it's your own fault. And don't call it an accident

Don't look at me, look at the normies who have an embolism when it happens.

 

[angusmadmac1]

Like when a low health NPC ship zips between a cmdr and the target they are actively firing at?

There should be a warning if you haven't targeted the ship (like when you shoot your SLF ). Possibly a fine to the amount to repair said ship of the damage ?
If you have targeted it and shot once by accident then it's accident ( and yes I do this quite often ). Only if you have targeted the ship and hit it multiple times should the law jump in .
If you stow weapons then it's a fine, but if you jump or attack the law then all hell rains down on you in that factions systems and PP area ?

 

[Mohrgan]

Like a classic "I Love Lucy", this whole conversation, and ensuing hilarity, stems from a simple misunderstanding. The misunderstanding in this episode turns out to be "Lucy" thinking the C&P system was, is, or should be intended to curb any Commander's behavior.

 

[aRJay]

There should be a warning if you haven't targeted the ship (like when you shoot your SLF ). Possibly a fine to the amount to repair said ship of the damage ?
If you have targeted it and shot once by accident then it's accident ( and yes I do this quite often ). Only if you have targeted the ship and hit it multiple times should the law jump in .
If you stow weapons then it's a fine, but if you jump or attack the law then all hell rains down on you in that factions systems and PP area ?

That's all very well for players with relatively low damage weapons such as Beams and Multicannons but I am told some are packing 4 or 5 Rails or Plasma one hit of which is likely to leave a debris cloud and nothing to hit with any follow on shots.

 

[Mohrgan]

That's all very well for players with relatively low damage weapons such as Beams and Multicannons but I am told some are packing 4 or 5 Rails or Plasma one hit of which is likely to leave a debris cloud and nothing to hit with any follow on shots.

You know?... For some of us, it is a big deal when we can land 4 or 5 PAs in one pass, that took some shooting right there. If I did that, it wouldn't be a mistake.

 

[Greasetrap42]

That's all very well for players with relatively low damage weapons such as Beams and Multicannons but I am told some are packing 4 or 5 Rails or Plasma one hit of which is likely to leave a debris cloud and nothing to hit with any follow on shots.

Even with regular lasers & multicanons, accidentally tagging a friendly ship low on HP and about to explode anyway I believe gives notoriety. Is there a minimum dmg for kill credit and notoriety? I'm not sure.

 

[aRJay]

You know?... For some of us, it is a big deal when we can land 4 or 5 PAs in one pass, that took some shooting right there. If I did that, it wouldn't be a mistake.

I will start using Rails and PAs when they come on anything other than fixed mounts.

Even with regular lasers & multicanons, accidentally tagging a friendly ship low on HP and about to explode anyway I believe gives notoriety. Is there a minimum dmg for kill credit and notoriety? I'm not sure.

Yes but this is where turrets and smart rounds help out.
It used to be if you tagged a friendly you could avoid the bounty if you could leave the instance before they were killed by other NPCs.

 

[metatheurgist]

Like when a low health NPC ship zips between a cmdr and the target they are actively firing at?

A lot of that would've been avoided without the 'player gets credit even after for 10s after' rule, because some peeps were they didn't get all the bounties. Though according to one of the latest updates they fixed that blame accreditation problem. Would've been nothing to fix if they didn't cave to the , again.