Crime and Punishment not fit for purpose - needs overhauling

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TBF, you and I seem to be singing from much the same hymn book.

The particular section of the post you quoted was a response to a very specific point.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of forums it’s easy for the original statement to get lost in the middle pages potentially causing confusion. 🙂
Indeed, hope I didn’t add confusion to a complicated subject ;-)
We do agree that NPCs (excluding thargoids) are fairly easy and could be upgraded
Not sure if we agree on my more extreme position (making them better than humans in some cases)
 
But this is wandering off topic, and there’s a thread specifically about NPCs currently active, so I’ll leave it so we can go back to talking about C&P
It all started with a discussion about ATR and how they could effectively be ‘better than a ganker’ for example by following the perpetrator around the bubble till they get them. I , along with rubbernuke, kind of latched on to that to say that we could also create NPCs unrelated to ATR, but as criminals that in certain BGS or power play conditions would be stronger than humans. It would also ‘bridge the gap’ between pvp and pve to allow a common C&P between the two. The other way (which has its advantages) is to have specific elements of C&P that apply only to cmdrs. All because of engineering!! As I said, it’s complicated 😂
 
Most of us would have more fun if they were more of a challenge, but not if they were unbeatable. If they’re not programmed to be beatable people would get bored pretty quickly.


I mean, how do I answer that? You’re simply wrong. NPCs are programmed to be beatable by players, therefore a good player is always going to be a harder opponent.

Not once have I suggested they be made unbeatable. There is a massive gulf between where they are now and unbeatable. An NPC that is ten times as good as I am wouldn't be unbeatable, even by me; I'd just be forced to retreat far more often than I was able to take that NPC down in a direct confrontation and losing a ship to one would at least be possible.

NPCs are programmed to completely suck, but this doesn't need to be so. There are few technical limitations at play in that decision. We've had better (still not particularly good) NPCs in the past, as far as general combat piloting goes, and the parameters related to their inter-instance persistence and hostility are design choices.

You seem to be implying that what's been chosen must be because it's what's been chosen, which is tautological nonsense.

I'm saying they've made the wrong choices. I don't particularly think they'll ever have any compelling incentive to implement better choices, but they absolutely could.

Which ship is locked behind the Elite rank? It’s been a long time since I got mine so maybe I’ve just forgotten.

None. There are, however, half a dozen ships locked behind Naval ranks that are barriers to gameplay, missions that are uncommon at lower PF ranks that make PF rank a barrier to gameplay, and local and superpower reputation that are barriers to getting missions and such that can make progress through those ranks faster.

My CMDR has more options available to him being an multiple-Elite Admiral-King who is on good terms with hundreds of factions than a fresh CMDR has. I don't think there is anything wrong with this in principle (though the implementation is crap), but it's definitely a thing, and quite deliberately so. This is a motivating factor for trying to bypass all sorts of potentially very repetitive gameplay to get to the gameplay one thinks one wants. An 'AFK build', or any number of other ways to cheese around certain elements can reduce the time one needs to actively participate in what some consider to be little more than tedious grind.

While technically true, no dev would program NPCs to be better than the humans who are fighting them.

I don't agree with that either. That's like saying no one would include any monsters with more than 7HD in the Monster Manual because the average PC party was level four.

Even Elite: Dangerous has some NPCs that are beyond the capabilities of the 'average' CMDR, they're just reserved for purely optional encounters when they could be used better, and the nature of their difficulty is a lazy, almost purely inflationary, implementation.

In fact it’s usual to set the difficulty to be challenging for the average player.

Games where the difficulty ceiling of NPCs is higher than what the average player or player character can reliably handle are not uncommon, and nothing prevents such NPCs from existing in the same setting as much lesser challenges.

I think this game would be able to cater to a much broader segment of players if the NPC capability ceiling was high enough to give the CMDRs of the most skilled players, serious trouble. NPCs of this caliber would never need to oppose most CMDRs, but could be used as soft content gates, or credible opposition to those who've earned the ire of powerful groups, where lesser threats have proven impotent.
 
None up for a discussion on higher order logic?

To put this in another light, higher order means more nuance: murder you say ... what degree? In most sane judicial systems you have to convince jurors that the case fits the rule book definition, but in code as it currently stands it is the black and white version of law that rules the roost. To my mind, it is this aspect of C&P that really needs refinement, rather than altering the laws themselves. The way that the system discerns needs some TLC or otherwise said, the jurors need a buf! This is not a small ask though.
 
None up for a discussion on higher order logic?

To put this in another light, higher order means more nuance: murder you say ... what degree? In most sane judicial systems you have to convince jurors that the case fits the rule book definition, but in code as it currently stands it is the black and white version of law that rules the roost. To my mind, it is this aspect of C&P that really needs refinement, rather than altering the laws themselves. The way that the system discerns needs some TLC or otherwise said, the jurors need a buf! This is not a small ask though.
You’re not really explaining yourself.
If by higher order logic you mean applying a sliding scale or better still a curve to the penalty for certain crimes then I believe that is already the case I.e. notoriety starts off slow then accelerates for each further crime. Many actions that affect the BGS follow an inverse square law, so that it doesn’t pay to do the same action many times but varied actions fewer times.

But I have no idea if I have addressed your post.
 
In most sane judicial systems you have to convince jurors that the case fits the rule book definition, but in code as it currently stands it is the black and white version of law that rules the roost. To my mind, it is this aspect of C&P that really needs refinement, rather than altering the laws themselves.
In the country I live in jurors are used to determine guilt. It is the judge that determines the sentence (punishment), which is modified by circumstances presented during the trial.

In ED Cmdrs don't go to trial. There is no jury. Cmdrs get auto-sentenced.

I'm really not interested in pleading my case in a criminal trial. For a spaceship game auto-sentencing is okay with me. The sentence auto-scales with the crime. And the governments don't take proceeds of crime, or any property involved in the crime (cargo, equipment, ships, fleet carriers).
 
You’re not really explaining yourself.
If by higher order logic you mean applying a sliding scale or better still a curve to the penalty for certain crimes then I believe that is already the case I.e. notoriety starts off slow then accelerates for each further crime. Many actions that affect the BGS follow an inverse square law, so that it doesn’t pay to do the same action many times but varied actions fewer times.

But I have no idea if I have addressed your post.
This is a specific term in computer science and really also philosophy, it pertains to the nature of decision making, in a mechanical way, using a greater number of dimensions. So the result is that rather than a binary 'did you hit a friendly ship' if so make all factions ships hostile, you have a count of hits before shifting into a level that triggers the switch from your comrades. Basically it means making the law AI smarter.

My thought is that you have to do this over a log of recent acts, in many cases for both parties involved, to make a sane logical decision.

Same thing as evaluating the facts, in any judicial situation.
 
Our ship AI, Verity by default, is the perfect witness. They see all, they say all. Space Due-Process is fast, and Space Justice is swift. Or not... Space is big, after all.

Do you think a Dev is sitting at their desk dreaming of "Law & Order in Spaaace"?
 
Often the only witness is our own ship. And it is our ship that notifies us of the crime & penalty. Automatically and immediately. Which implies our own ship is an extension of the legal system. And nobody has figured out how to mod a ship so we aren't being constantly monitored.

It seams logical that the NPC ships are the same. Pirates, Drug Lords, Evil doers of all types. Otherwise for certain tasks we would use a ship like theirs: off the grid.

Or as @Mohrgan suggests, FDev didn't put that much thought into it. Its just a space game.
 
Our ship AI, Verity by default, is the perfect witness. They see all, they say all. Space Due-Process is fast, and Space Justice is swift. Or not... Space is big, after all.

Do you think a Dev is sitting at their desk dreaming of "Law & Order in Spaaace"?
No one needs to dream of it any more, you coded it once, and bingo; Bob is your uncle that got sent to jail for ramming someone with a sidewinder!
 
Often the only witness is our own ship. And it is our ship that notifies us of the crime & penalty. Automatically and immediately. Which implies our own ship is an extension of the legal system. And nobody has figured out how to mod a ship so we aren't being constantly monitored.

It seams logical that the NPC ships are the same. Pirates, Drug Lords, Evil doers of all types. Otherwise for certain tasks we would use a ship like theirs: off the grid.

Or as @Mohrgan suggests, FDev didn't put that much thought into it. Its just a space game.
The CPU sees every single bit, the witness is the ships computer, the same one that counts your kills and gives you rankings; The pilots' federation have the market for these devices, seems that they need a firmware patch is all.
 
This is a specific term in computer science and really also philosophy, it pertains to the nature of decision making, in a mechanical way, using a greater number of dimensions. So the result is that rather than a binary 'did you hit a friendly ship' if so make all factions ships hostile, you have a count of hits before shifting into a level that triggers the switch from your comrades. Basically it means making the law AI smarter.

My thought is that you have to do this over a log of recent acts, in many cases for both parties involved, to make a sane logical decision.

Same thing as evaluating the facts, in any judicial situation.
So please provide an example of the logic C&P uses and how you would improve it using higher order logic!
 
Often the only witness is our own ship. And it is our ship that notifies us of the crime & penalty. Automatically and immediately. Which implies our own ship is an extension of the legal system. And nobody has figured out how to mod a ship so we aren't being constantly monitored.

It seams logical that the NPC ships are the same. Pirates, Drug Lords, Evil doers of all types. Otherwise for certain tasks we would use a ship like theirs: off the grid.

Or as @Mohrgan suggests, FDev didn't put that much thought into it. Its just a space game.
Yeah, as others have said here, you really should get caught before the punishment, maybe frontier feared that us criminals would find too many cracks in the system ;-)
 
So please provide an example of the logic C&P uses and how you would improve it using higher order logic!
A very simple version of a logic that is used in some games, but not that would be ideal here, but to give an idea, Is: the Mayer Briggs model, a profile of a player that is contained within an encrypted state cookie, that is used to evaluate intention in accordance with any act. Now the Mayer Briggs score only requires 4 bits to store. I would envisage something slightly more involved than this, but the same principle.

Addendum:

How it would improve, well the case of a fatal collision, examine both profiles:

1) New player, clean rap sheet, some adventuring.

2) Long time player, serial 'accidental deaths', no time spent mining trading or pirating, numerous kills all dubious circumstances.

logical truth test: Player 2 in unarmed new sidewinder, no shots fired, accelerating out of station after loitering within before collision, player 1 manoeuvring lightly for docking procedure, entering station over speed limit.

Situation is not clear from the local situational data at all, add weights from play style analysis, and the picture becomes somewhat clearer.
 
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A very simple version of a logic that is used in some games, but not that would be ideal here, but to give an idea, Is: the Mayer Briggs model, a profile of a player that is contained within an encrypted state cookie, that is used to evaluate intention in accordance with any act. Now the Mayer Briggs score only requires 4 bits to store. I would envisage something slightly more involved than this, but the same principle.
I think I’ll go and have a beer. Thanks for all the fish!!!!!
 
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