Crime & Punishment just needs tweaks!

The C&P system still sucks. Sorry.
However, there are some great concepts in the current system that just need a little tweak or some fleshing out to make C&P work!

1. Notoriety
The Notoriety system doesn't quite work as implemented. It might be working as designed, I get that, but that's not the point.
For a start, it isn't consistent. If you get Noto for murdering people - NPCs and CMDRs alike - then you should get noto when you're doing "wet work" missions, too.
[side note: please fix massacre missions so that "mission targets" show up in the mission target signal sources... this has been a problem for a long time now - contact me for details of latest issue]
But really, getting notoriety for killing NPCs is silly. Notoriety should be reserved for those who murder CMDRs and capping it at 10... well, why? I'm no carebear, by any means, but I also believe that open mode =/= asking to be murdered mode. I have lots of positive interactions with other CMDRs in open that don't involve one of us having to shoot the other. Consensual PvP is great. Non-consensual PvP has its place, too, but the C&P system is supposed to give those actions consequences. If it doesn't, then what's the point?

2. ATR
ATR is something of a joke - at least until you've racked up 10 notoriety and hundreds-of-millions in bounties! This could be expanded on. With notoriety based on CMDR murders, ATR could be made increasingly deadly. Starts off with a combat-equipped Anaconda and a couple of Vipers, naturally. Get enough notoriety and/or kill enough of the ATR and they're showing up in 4-ship wings of fully-engineered Federal Corvettes, each with fighters! The only way to escape ATR should be to retreat to anarchy systems.

3. Notoriety cooldown
With notoriety only coming into play for CMDR murders, the cooldown mechanic could be tweaked, too. I think 2 hours of gameplay is still reasonable but being docked at a station should not count. Why? Because there's no risk that way. If the notorious player, then, decides to place his ship just outside the station (in an anarchy system, of course) and go AFK, an NPC or a CMDR could happen along, KWS him and collect the bounty - which notoriety should, by the way, automatically confer to the player, not just the ship. When our notorious CMDR returns, they might find that their ship was destroyed AND they're still notorious! The same kind of thing could happen if they put their ship in supercruise or just full-thrust in normal space - NPC bounty hunters don't mind anarchy systems!

4. Bounty-hunting - Fo' Realz!
While I don't have this fleshed out in my head quite yet, it would be interesting to introduce a mechanic to the game whereby CMDRs get a kill-order for a notorious CMDR via in-game message and/or mission boards - perhaps based on the location of the murder and/or if the victim was a member of a Squadron tied to that faction, whatever. CMDRs could accept the mission or not, and it would be a wing mission, so sharable. I would suggest the following parameters for when these missions appear:
  • Notorious CMDR is in the same system, or within jump range. Mission is offered by the controlling faction of the current system (non-anarchy)
  • You are in a [non-anarchy] system where a murder occurred within the previous hour & notorious CMDR is still in game and in open/same PG as you. Mission is offered by the controlling faction of the current system. (This could be affected by BGS security states.)
  • You are in a system [anarchy-included] in which [non-anarchy] FactionX, which the victim (through a Squadron) was pledged to, has a presence. Mission is offered by FactionX.
Mission details would include the current location of the notorious CMDR, current ship, notoriety level etc.

So, in conclusion, the effect of these changes would be to make the C&P system work as advertised to create real consequences for actions. CMDRs would have to carefully consider their tactics, and overall strategies, in dealing with the system - instead of just leaving the game logged in overnight with them docked at a station out of reach. It would make the entire concept more realistic, while still allowing for all types of gameplay.
 
I would have notoriety on the ships and bounty on the player. Especially if space legs is the next big expansion.
No, because then you could just park your notorious ship and avoid consequences.

If you're notorious enough, I want the game to send everything it has at you - ATR, Bounty hunters, other players. Just imagine the emerging gameplay from that!
 
I would add one thing:

- When you reach notoriety 4 (for example) you only can play in open until you low it
So, I gave that some thought. FDEV are never receptive to such ideas because of their equal access policy. However, I don't think you'd need to implement that, anyway. The CMDRs who would be getting that notorious are the ones aching for more player interaction. I think they'd stay in open and HOPE that a posse came through looking for them.
 
No, because then you could just park your notorious ship and avoid consequences.

If you're notorious enough, I want the game to send everything it has at you - ATR, Bounty hunters, other players. Just imagine the emerging gameplay from that!
Eh. No you wouldn't as you would still have s bounty on your head.

Currently if you get a bounty, you can just fly a different ship. It makes no sense. The bounty should be ok on the commander, and if you have a bounty it should matter what ship you fly.

Then by putting notoriety on the ship, you can then put restrictions on the ship, it makes it more difficult to use in law abiding places and so forth as that ship is notorious for whatever it keeps doing.

Make snore sense then a bounty on the ship. So that when space legs come, you can just murder people as you go along but nobody will do anything as you have no bounty on your head, it would be on your ship.

Maybe the ship and the commander could have there own notoriety. But bounty should be on the commander.
 
Eh. No you wouldn't as you would still have s bounty on your head.

Currently if you get a bounty, you can just fly a different ship. It makes no sense. The bounty should be ok on the commander, and if you have a bounty it should matter what ship you fly.

Then by putting notoriety on the ship, you can then put restrictions on the ship, it makes it more difficult to use in law abiding places and so forth as that ship is notorious for whatever it keeps doing.

Make snore sense then a bounty on the ship. So that when space legs come, you can just murder people as you go along but nobody will do anything as you have no bounty on your head, it would be on your ship.

Maybe the ship and the commander could have there own notoriety. But bounty should be on the commander.
There is a reason that the bounty is on the ship instead of the CMDR - exploits. Before the current system, a CMDR with a bounty could just buy a sidewinder, get himself attacked by a station, and then take the free sidewinder option instead of paying the rebuy + bounty. By having the bounty on the ship, you can't lose the bounty without either paying it or losing the ship. No, the system as it is makes sense and we're not trying to reinvent the wheel - and we're especially not trying to reinvent an OLD wheel!

The idea I'm proposing fixes the problem you're thinking of, anyway. If a CMDR is notorious, that follows him no matter what ship he's flying and the ATR etc are being sent after him, not the ship. Notoriety doesn't get cleaned away like Bounties do.
 
There is a reason that the bounty is on the ship instead of the CMDR - exploits. Before the current system, a CMDR with a bounty could just buy a sidewinder, get himself attacked by a station, and then take the free sidewinder option instead of paying the rebuy + bounty. By having the bounty on the ship, you can't lose the bounty without either paying it or losing the ship. No, the system as it is makes sense and we're not trying to reinvent the wheel - and we're especially not trying to reinvent an OLD wheel!
Your ships will have notoriety which means it cannot be swapped out in law abiding places. You would need to travel to an anarchy to swap out your ship, while having a bounty being hunted down by bounty hunters. That is already a disadvantage. The only thing that needs to be changed is how bounties are worked out.

What I would do is have the bounty that you need to pay off at the detention centre (i really don't care about the ship you are in), but you are also heavily fined (a payment that does not go to the bounty hunter but the local jurisdiction). This could be equal or 2 or 3 times the amount of bounty you have on your head or maybe base it on the ship you are using to commit the crime in or the ship you have commited the crime against. You would not only need to pay off the bounty, you would need to pay off the fine to be released from the detention/prison ship.

That way it doesn't matter which ship you are flying when caught .

Also when a ship has notoriety it would have all the negative that it would have had if it had a bounty in the old system, the ship and modules are considered hot.

The idea I'm proposing fixes the problem you're thinking of, anyway. If a CMDR is notorious, that follows him no matter what ship he's flying and the ATR etc are being sent after him, not the ship. Notoriety doesn't get cleaned away like Bounties do.
If someone is notorious with no bounty (like flying a different ship) ATR will completely ignore them as will all the other security ships. Instead of having notoriety follow him around, have the bounty, so that ATR/Security will actually attack.

Make having a bounty a tough thing to have even if you jump into a sidewinder and effectively commit suicide.

Also your system doesn't circumvent the issues if we get space legs next year, which is a distinct possibility.
 
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I'm not sure where the communication deficiency is but.... I'm suggesting tying ATR response etc to notoriety as well as to bounty - so that no matter what ship a notorious CMDR is flying, he'll be unwelcome anywhere but anarchy systems (ATR hunting him down, can't land on stations not controlled by anarchy factions, etc). Perhaps a solution to your conundrum is that if/when you're caught and summarily executed, to clear the notoriety costs you 10 million per point or something. You could chose to remain notorious with all the problems that brings, of course, until you'd accumulated enough game time to decrease the noto.

The main issue with what you're suggesting is that it has been done before and changed twice. People keep saying how "stupid" it is that bounties are now tied to the ship instead of the CMDR but trust me, if there was a way they could've made it work before, they would've done so. I'm trying to propose tweeks to the current system because they're more likely to be implemented than a complete overhaul of the system (again.)

As for space legs, I don't see your point. If you're notorious, you're notorious whether you're sitting in a ship, walking around a base, driving an SRV or in hand-to-hand combat with Thargoids. All that changes is the mechanic of who is coming to hunt you down and how. But, right now, it's kinda irrelevant to speculate on how a game mechanic that we don't even know will exist, yet alone how it will be implemented, and try to work that into solutions for a part of the game that is broken now.
 
I'm not sure where the communication deficiency is but.... I'm suggesting tying ATR response etc to notoriety as well as to bounty - so that no matter what ship a notorious CMDR is flying, he'll be unwelcome anywhere but anarchy systems (ATR hunting him down, can't land on stations not controlled by anarchy factions, etc). Perhaps a solution to your conundrum is that if/when you're caught and summarily executed, to clear the notoriety costs you 10 million per point or something. You could chose to remain notorious with all the problems that brings, of course, until you'd accumulated enough game time to decrease the noto.
I don't like the idea and think it will make it worse. Hence the reason why I gave my alternative. It would be too extreme for people that want to be pirates. It would be so bad that it wouldn't be a viable way to play.

The main issue with what you're suggesting is that it has been done before and changed twice. People keep saying how "stupid" it is that bounties are now tied to the ship instead of the CMDR but trust me, if there was a way they could've made it work before, they would've done so. I'm trying to propose tweeks to the current system because they're more likely to be implemented than a complete overhaul of the system (again.)
Not in the same way as I suggested.

As for space legs, I don't see your point. If you're notorious, you're notorious whether you're sitting in a ship, walking around a base, driving an SRV or in hand-to-hand combat with Thargoids. All that changes is the mechanic of who is coming to hunt you down and how. But, right now, it's kinda irrelevant to speculate on how a game mechanic that we don't even know will exist, yet alone how it will be implemented, and try to work that into solutions for a part of the game that is broken now.
I don't like your version as it is too punishing and will actively discourage that kind of gameplay. Your solution would be more broken in my view.
 
Frontier is never going to go for CMDR only notoriety as one of the main reasons for implementing it was to reduce the prevalence of murdering gobs of clean NPC ships as a quick and easy way to reduce faction influence and security.

Personally, I'm not at all in favor for Pilots Federation members getting any more special advantages over NPCs. C&P could certainly use some more work, but it's purpose cannot simply be to deter 'non-consensual PvP'.

you should get noto when you're doing "wet work" missions, too.
You don't get notoriety for these because your employer supresses the criminal identification network with regards to penalties for killing mission targets. If they did not do this, they would need to vastly increase payouts to make the mission profitable after accounting for bounties.

being docked at a station should not count. Why? Because there's no risk that way. If the notorious player, then, decides to place his ship just outside the station (in an anarchy system, of course) and go AFK, an NPC or a CMDR could happen along, KWS him and collect the bounty - which notoriety should, by the way, automatically confer to the player, not just the ship. When our notorious CMDR returns, they might find that their ship was destroyed AND they're still notorious!
Setting a ship to drift in normal space is essentially 100% safe. The only risk is running out of fuel, if one is reckless.

Low-wakes dissipate relatively quickly and won't place those that use it in immediate proximity to a ship that has moved away. If nothing shows up within the first few minutes, nothing is going to show up.
 
Good ideas, I've been pretty much preaching the same gospel.

It would also be awesome if white knighting would be encouraged more, and CMDRs choosing to hunt notorious murderers would have better tools at their disposal for locating them. For example, galmap could show markers for recent CMDR murder, stating who murdered and when. Bounty hunters should also have some sort of an informant network, that notifies when and where a target has been spotted. Perhaps one could set up a list of targets, up to n notorious CMDRs, and get a notification whenever a target docks at a friendly/allied station. Or alternatively, instead of friendly/allied status, one would have to spend credits to hire informants at stations (I'd opt for the reputation option, since credits are pretty meaningless to HC players).
 
You don't get notoriety for these because your employer supresses the criminal identification network with regards to penalties for killing mission targets. If they did not do this, they would need to vastly increase payouts to make the mission profitable after accounting for bounties.
As a matter of fact, gaining notoriety and upping the payouts from criminal missions would be a good idea. Criminal careers need more love.
 
Notoriety for NPC kills should remain in play. People choose to play SOLO only, and to remove notoriety would be to remove an element from the game for one section of players. You'd somehow have to ensure that a player (if the system you suggest was adopted) who gained notoriety in OPEN, couldn't simply switch to SOLO where there was no longer any notoriety. I doubt that's going to change (no notoriety for NPC kills), and nor should it.
 
The fact that you are transported fro ceos to maia for a 200 credit fine is insane.
the fines and bounty system really destroys the game.
At present i am wanted by Palin, try paing that fine...
Make fines payable everywhere and do not transport someone 300 ly for at 200 cr fine.
 
The fact that you are transported fro ceos to maia for a 200 credit fine is insane.
the fines and bounty system really destroys the game.
At present i am wanted by Palin, try paing that fine...
Make fines payable everywhere and do not transport someone 300 ly for at 200 cr fine.
I didn't think you got incarcerated for just a fine, as far as I can see you don't, and fines can be payed at security contacts in most stations.

You get deported for bounties, which are different from just fines.
 
I didn't think you got incarcerated for just a fine, as far as I can see you don't, and fines can be payed at security contacts in most stations.

You get deported for bounties, which are different from just fines.
To a non native englishspeaker it is splitting hairs to differetiate between bounty and fine. the only good part is tat if you get transported 300ly ou get rid of the thing. Does everything have to be a grind in this game? Even paying fines? Just admit thart it is a broken system. make fines or what ever you call it payable anywhere.
 
To a non native englishspeaker it is splitting hairs to differetiate between bounty and fine. the only good part is tat if you get transported 300ly ou get rid of the thing. Does everything have to be a grind in this game? Even paying fines? Just admit thart it is a broken system. make fines or what ever you call it payable anywhere.
You don't get incarcerated for a fine, and there is a big difference between the two, enough for anyone to understand whether they be english speaking or not. People who don't speak aren't stupid, they are quite capable of understanding this difference.
 
To a non native englishspeaker it is splitting hairs to differetiate between bounty and fine. the only good part is tat if you get transported 300ly ou get rid of the thing. Does everything have to be a grind in this game? Even paying fines? Just admit thart it is a broken system. make fines or what ever you call it payable anywhere.
All you need is an interstellar factors contact, which are in pretty much any low sec system. Get a non-murder bounty for Palin and you just fly to a station that has one of these and pay it off. You don't get transported anywhere.
 

dxm55

Banned
Agreed with the ATR thing.
Once you've reached a certain Notoriety or Bounty amount, a super ATR squad should be sent after you and interdicting you the moment you get into high or med sec space. And less frequently in low sec. None in Anarchy.

After all, if you're a wanted crim, the Feds and SWAT would be after you the moment you stepped into and are spotted, in a place like NYC or London.
 
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