CRIME & PUNISHMENT - Notoriety Should not be limited to 10 (& possibly increase time taken for notoriety to decay)

Some great posts here.

In my opinion the whole C&P - nah the whole game - needs a complete balance pass, not just some small minor corrections.
It has so many great ideas which are lacking in their implementation.

Examples:
  • notoriety should be visible and trackable
  • bounties shouldn't be capped
  • there should be leaderboards for criminals to brag & track (that's gonna make a great tagline 🤔)
  • system states should make a difference, a real, tangible difference (this is a pet peeve of mine tbh)
  • security should be persistent, especially ATR
  • there should be missions to reduce notoriety
  • notoriety should be attached to the CMDR again, not the ship (have to think this through from a gameplay-pov, but from a logical view it makes sense) edit: I made a mistake, notoriety is CMDR, Bounty is ship. But it makes no sense for the bounty to be put on the ship...
  • etc...
 
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Nah it isn't I dun goofed. Bounties are with ships, notoriety with CMDR.
I wanted to say all consequences should be tied to CMDRs, not ships. Sorry.
Oh phew.

And yeh, I would prefer consequences tagged to commanders, not ships, but I'd prefer all those examples you added above. The whole perspective of C&P, especially in consideration of the lack of extant negative states in the BGS, needs a total overhaul... again.
 
Don't mind about the cap being removed, However, the time for a single kill is about right. I sometimes destroy someone by accident when attempting piracy against commanders not following the approved policy I give to my customers, and I dislike it, because I often swap modules, and this stops me from swapping them.
 
Actually quite like all this, good combination of ideas in here, i'd wouldn't mind seeing something like this added. Can see why BGS may be reasoning to keep notoriety level gain the same per player/npc. I have a feeling that even a positive change like this to C&P should it get implemented will drive up casualty reports initially, but if left to run its course could be a really nice & needed buff to bounty hunting, especially if being able to track nearby high notoriety commanders (Informant Perk) within a certain range e.g 40ly. Could make it easier to police & enforce jurisdictions. This may also cause ship builds to adjust to meet the new change, if you're trackable up to a range in Open once you've gained a certain amount of notoriety.
 
The Crime and Punishment section of the Pilot's Handbook indicates that notoriety increases to a maximum of 10 - with each kill of a 'clean' Commander. Notoriety decreases by 1 point for every 2 hours of 'gameplay'. This appears to mean that a player can expect a maximum of 20 hours of notoriety, regardless of how many 'clean' players are killed once the murdering player has reached a notoriety level of 10 - their maximum punishment will only ever be 20 hours (not taking into account the time they spend on their murdering spree).

Now, I don't know how many 'clean' Commanders a player can murder in one night (or over a weekend) - probably quite a number - but it seems to me this notoriety feature isn't that well balanced.

Let's say a player kills 20 players for no reason. In reality, they should have to wait 40 hours to have a notoriety of 0, but for whatever reason it's apparently been capped at 20 hours (max 10 notoriety).

I suggest that notoriety increase is connected to the amount of people murdered - with no cap. If you kill 20 players, expect a wait time of at least 2 hours for each player (regardless of number) before your notoriety is set to zero.

I'd love to hear the justification in limiting the number to 10 - meaning that any murder committed after you've hit that number becomes irrelevant (apart from the added increase in bounty, and possibly rebuy costs).

As for being able to simply be sat docked at a station, running down the clock while asleep, or at work/school, I'm not sure what the solution to this could or should be. Perhaps increasing the time it takes for notoriety to decay should be bumped up - 4 hours of in-game play to reduce notoriety by 1.
I think it should be a real Punishment for clean players killing not 2 hours. Unless the two players agree on Ganking each other before the fight. Then they could have a pass.

I think it should be progressive Notoriety like listed below. Or after 3 they are shadowban to a solo mode for 6 hours so they can do no more harm until the 6 hours.
1 2 hours
2 +4 Hours
3 +8 Hours
4 +16 Hours
and so on.
 
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I think it should be a real Punishment for clean players killing not 2 hours. Unless the two players agree on Ganking each other before the fight. Then they could have a pass.

I think it should be progressive Notoriety like listed below. Or after 3 they are shadowban to a solo mode for 6 hours so they can do no more harm until the 6 hours.
1 2 hours
2 +4 Hours
3 +8 Hours
4 +16 Hours
and so on.
Seems a little excessive to me... Interested to hear what others might think.
 
I cant for the life of me remember the circumstances but I do know that GTA online had a system where an aggressor would have to pay for the rebuy of the ‘victim’s’ car.
 
a fair bit of narrow views here regarding the killing of clean ships.
It has already been mentioned that often in playing the BGS this is going to happen.
Also people need to understand the differences between honest and dishonest. There are roles in this game, Piracy, Bounty Hunters , Mercenaries and simply people defending themselves from invasion, all of these roles can easily get a person bounties. Many mission types get people bounties for what is considered honest or lawful play.
In this game there is a very large amount of conflict and what is lawful and honest for one faction is of course seen as the opposite to another faction

I agree that the C&P has needed and still needs adjusting, but lets get it done for the right reasons. Most of what I read here is all about the punishment of Griefers/gankers whatever you want to call them, so lets try a bit harder not to paint legitimate gameplay with the same brush and at the same time realize also that Fdev considers that legitimate gameplay too, otherwise they would ban or otherwise punish people for killing defensless players.
Consider what can be done and do it, this is the wild west in space and good luck getting the greedy corporations and superpowers to care about any individual.

So if you are being harassed, there are rules for that
If you are being killed because another player kills you and its a legit part of his game play, learn how to survive. And if you can manage to hire mercs to help you, do so, use the forum to advertise for help..sadly that might get you help but is more likely to bring out the forum gankers and trolls all telling you to git gud or suffer.
All part of the game and part of the forums
TBH the game always has been and likely always will be best suited to survival of the fittest and the weakest be fodder.
 
I would add that as a cmdr that has had notoriety of 10 for weeks and weeks at a time as well as extremely large bounties on various ships, it has not once ever affected my game play in any way at all.
And because this was all incurred by me defending against BGS system invasion, any punishment was considered unfair to me. Regardless of whether my thousands of kills were NPC or cmdrs.
I control a system, they invade, I fight back. In my opinion in a situation like this all C&P would have been better suited to side with me and intentionally sided against the invader.
There were a few times where I happily even killed my own ships for firing on me, their commander. And more than a few times wished there was a way to blow up a station.
This aspect of the game is so unrealistic that the C&P happily sides with an invader because there is a war ongoing and I kill their ships where ever I see them is dead wrong.
But we live with it. I would have my own troops killed if they didn't follow my lead in an invasion and any business other than detrimental would/should be prohibited and KOS warrants to be issued against all enemy supporters.
It is my belief that fdev has not even had a few thoughts on this aspect of the game and that then also says the entire C&P is not close to their thoughts/hearts.
Again I state my #1 thing about the caring/loyalty of the systems/npc's - they will blow up a billion credit ship for loitering - to this I say Yay Anarchy.
Anarchy is by far, more fair in this game than any other.
 
I would add that as a cmdr that has had notoriety of 10 for weeks and weeks at a time as well as extremely large bounties on various ships, it has not once ever affected my game play in any way at all.
And because this was all incurred by me defending against BGS system invasion, any punishment was considered unfair to me. Regardless of whether my thousands of kills were NPC or cmdrs.
I control a system, they invade, I fight back. In my opinion in a situation like this all C&P would have been better suited to side with me and intentionally sided against the invader.
There were a few times where I happily even killed my own ships for firing on me, their commander. And more than a few times wished there was a way to blow up a station.
This aspect of the game is so unrealistic that the C&P happily sides with an invader because there is a war ongoing and I kill their ships where ever I see them is dead wrong.
But we live with it. I would have my own troops killed if they didn't follow my lead in an invasion and any business other than detrimental would/should be prohibited and KOS warrants to be issued against all enemy supporters.
It is my belief that fdev has not even had a few thoughts on this aspect of the game and that then also says the entire C&P is not close to their thoughts/hearts.
Again I state my #1 thing about the caring/loyalty of the systems/npc's - they will blow up a billion credit ship for loitering - to this I say Yay Anarchy.
Anarchy is by far, more fair in this game than any other.
What was the objective of the BGS invaders? I've never, so far, really tried to play the BGS to any great extend - only play for faction influence or whatever for what I gain from it (access to ships, rank/title, etc.). Unless I was part of a minor faction added to the game, the BGS doesn't affect me that much.

Same with PowerPlay - I only use it currently for what I can get - I haven't felt any great need to get involved any deeper at present. Still, if there were a way to weave all of these elements into one harmonious system - C & P, PowerPlay, BGS, Minor Factions, etc., then it might be worthwhile - even necessary. These features seem so detached from each other at present, I just haven't got the inclination.
 
At the time I controlled 18 systems, fdev put a pmf in my largest system and gave them a cg to take it away from me.
So I fought back with every BGS tool I could. 1 guy against literally hundreds of cmdrs.
So, yes I killed every clean ship that didn't belong to me or any of the other local factions
The result was obvious from the start, that I would lose a 6bil population system that cost me hundreds of millions and hundreds of hours to expand to and take control of.
On top of the CG Fdev also cheated and forced a war between me and the opposition, when the opposition was actually equalized with a faction that I spent time equalizing them with.
My only regret is that I could not kill them all and to aid them in that of course a large portion of them playing solo.
That loss cost me my largest system and a 2.6bil bounty, not to mention the hundreds of hours it cost me to get the system in the first place.
That was to me more of a lesson on how little fdev cares about the efforts of individual cmdrs. But it was also a huge lesson in how poorly setup the C&P is in regards to what happened. My own faction hunting and trying to kill me for protecting and fighting for what I worked for and earned.
Rank meant nothing, being the commander meant nothing, being the boss of 18 systems and their controlling faction all means nothing to the C&P system.
Also apparently means nothing to fdev.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game and I love the BGS. but the C&P is not a part of the pmf + BGS, it is against us.
From my perspective of that situation, there is absolutely no reason why I should ever have incurred any bounty against me, if it were real life scenario, every officer at my command that went against me would have been KOS and families either exiled or imprisoned for treason.

Its not easy to understand the BGS if you don't take part in it.
Some systems can be expanded to and taken over with extreme ease, some are very difficult and harder to take control of and usually the larger they are the longer it takes and as long as there is opposition, even if not intentional but simply random cmdrs doing their thing, it can be much much harder.
I now have presence in 34 systems and it has cost me billions and thousands of hours and it would be nice if the C&P actually took the appropriate actions for those of us that occasionatly have no choice but to resort to violence in order to force a retreat or to keep certain detrimental faction activities under control.
My factions mandate is actually to have peaceful trade routes in my systems and violence is a last resort, but it happens. An enemy clean ship does not mean they are honest law abiding or in any way a positive addition to a system, when an invader expands into a system and tries to take it over instead of melding in and just contributing, that makes their actions criminal to the current faction controlling the system, especially if it starts with deaths and acts of violence on day 1 of the invasion such as this one was.
And it has not stopped, they still continue to invade my systems on almost every expansion they do and continue to start wars in attempts to take more of my systems. To me they are a virus and I do what I have to, to keep them under control. There are a number of BGS tools that help in that, but none are as effective as killing their clean ships.
 
My point has not been aginst PP or BG where each is fighting for a set goal Once you join one of those groups you should have its own set of rules.

My point is with players who are not part of BG or PP and they get Ganked and they are clean.
 
At the time I controlled 18 systems, fdev put a pmf in my largest system and gave them a cg to take it away from me.
So I fought back with every BGS tool I could. 1 guy against literally hundreds of cmdrs.
So, yes I killed every clean ship that didn't belong to me or any of the other local factions
The result was obvious from the start, that I would lose a 6bil population system that cost me hundreds of millions and hundreds of hours to expand to and take control of.
On top of the CG Fdev also cheated and forced a war between me and the opposition, when the opposition was actually equalized with a faction that I spent time equalizing them with.
My only regret is that I could not kill them all and to aid them in that of course a large portion of them playing solo.
That loss cost me my largest system and a 2.6bil bounty, not to mention the hundreds of hours it cost me to get the system in the first place.
That was to me more of a lesson on how little fdev cares about the efforts of individual cmdrs. But it was also a huge lesson in how poorly setup the C&P is in regards to what happened. My own faction hunting and trying to kill me for protecting and fighting for what I worked for and earned.
Rank meant nothing, being the commander meant nothing, being the boss of 18 systems and their controlling faction all means nothing to the C&P system.
Also apparently means nothing to fdev.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game and I love the BGS. but the C&P is not a part of the pmf + BGS, it is against us.
From my perspective of that situation, there is absolutely no reason why I should ever have incurred any bounty against me, if it were real life scenario, every officer at my command that went against me would have been KOS and families either exiled or imprisoned for treason.

Its not easy to understand the BGS if you don't take part in it.
Some systems can be expanded to and taken over with extreme ease, some are very difficult and harder to take control of and usually the larger they are the longer it takes and as long as there is opposition, even if not intentional but simply random cmdrs doing their thing, it can be much much harder.
I now have presence in 34 systems and it has cost me billions and thousands of hours and it would be nice if the C&P actually took the appropriate actions for those of us that occasionatly have no choice but to resort to violence in order to force a retreat or to keep certain detrimental faction activities under control.
My factions mandate is actually to have peaceful trade routes in my systems and violence is a last resort, but it happens. An enemy clean ship does not mean they are honest law abiding or in any way a positive addition to a system, when an invader expands into a system and tries to take it over instead of melding in and just contributing, that makes their actions criminal to the current faction controlling the system, especially if it starts with deaths and acts of violence on day 1 of the invasion such as this one was.
And it has not stopped, they still continue to invade my systems on almost every expansion they do and continue to start wars in attempts to take more of my systems. To me they are a virus and I do what I have to, to keep them under control. There are a number of BGS tools that help in that, but none are as effective as killing their clean ships.
Thanks for the added info, quite interesting.

When you say that you have a presence in 34 systems, how is that possible? Is it through a minor faction you had added into the game? Also, are you actually the leader, or simply considered to be an employee of the faction? For example, when I become allied to a faction I am not a member, or the leader - simply an ally. Is there some difference in your scenario, or are you allied and working to expand that faction?
 
For me its a combination of the 2
I started by supporting a faction I was allied with and led them into several expansions and led them into controlling systems.
Eventually I got my own PMF and I also use and support them into doing the same.
So I actually use and support and control a pmf as well as an npc minor faction.
You could say I work for them or you could say they work for me. I see it as they work for me because without me and my guidance and my efforts they would still only be in their home system. But, YES Ally is all fdev seems to be able to allow us to be.
I am the guiding force that allowed and guided them into expansions and the force that allowed them to win hundreds of conflicts in order to continue expansions and to control many of the 34 systems they are present in.
My play in the game has given me meaningless ranks of King and Admiral and Elitex3, but my play has pushed these factions nowadays governed by my squadron into these systems and it is me that puts them in control of the systems they control.
I actually control more than 2 factions doing all this.
At the same time, I assist some other pmf's and occasionally I am sure offend a couple others. I have only had talks with 2 of them and as far as I know am considered an ally with one and total enemies of the one that continues to cause me grief.
Yes, I consider myself their leader..mostly because I have done this on my own, I have tried to get other players to be a part of it but oddly that is surprisingly complicated and difficult so its 99.9% me.
Obviously none of them(npc's) listen to me, nor is there any form of loyalty or attachment. But they are where they are and have control of systems and stations because of things I have done.
It would be nice if there were some actual reward or real power in it all, but all there is, is the satisfaction I get from being able to direct their movements and the success of those directions. And in it all I do create more and more places where it is easy for me to generate credits and in all this my multi-billion credit fortune has done nothing but grow.
As many of us say, the BGS is the end game and I do enjoy it and I do it because I have done everything else I can find to do in the game, and still do it all, I have to in order to keep things moving in many cases.
 
My point has not been aginst PP or BG where each is fighting for a set goal Once you join one of those groups you should have its own set of rules.

My point is with players who are not part of BG or PP and they get Ganked and they are clean.
I agree with this completely, I think fdev just has to figure out how to do it without giving everyone their own security force.

Otherwise though, as I previously stated, fdev does seem to consider what people call ganking a legitimate part of the gameplay.
And I have to agree.
If you have read my other posts in here about the invasions, I would love the opportunity to 'gank' my invaders, and if I could I would happily kill them every time I saw them in the game.
They do what the people that don't like being ganked need to also do, play in solo or PG, or just get better.
While you are learning or ranking up and slowly getting better, or foolishly hauling freight in unarmed or otherwise defenseless ships, there is no real good reason to risk getting killed other than to learn from getting killed, solo and pg is there just for that reason.
As much as I dislike that PG and solo players also still affect the BGS and Powerplay, its there for people to stay alive and safe in without fear of others killing them for what might be or might appear to be no good reason.

I have also picked on so called defenseless player. simply for being in my system, doing trade with the wrong station and totally ignoring my presence.
I had to kill them several times just to get their attention and to talk. Until I killed them a few times they refused to communicate.
Call them newbies if you will, I'm sure they were, but flying t-7's and ignoring a fellow cmdr in a vette is not wise, they switched to solo and that was fine, even though they continued to cause me problems, at least I got the opportunity to talk to them and ask them questions and even tried to steer them to better systems.

FWIW, it actually does me very little good to kill like that, I can fight the trade easily by simple methods. but attitude and ignoring is not any way to get along in the game either.
As a teenager I also got in fights lots with people with attitude, often total idiots that felt they were above those around them. its a mild form of bullying and for some of us with real short tempers was often good enough reason to break noses.

In the game, I get that they had no idea or even cared about the BGS, but now they know, and they also know why they got killed several times.
After lots of encounters like that a person eventually can easily get to the point of, here we go again and why bother to get frustrated if they choose to ignore, and what the heck, its just faster and easier to kill them a bunch of times and see if they go away.
I normally do NOT act that way nor do I care to, but I have my bad days too, for some folks those bad days last years. I know that because I grew up being constantly bullied by idiots and just like this game, I learned how to defend and fight back. Anyone can still be caught off guard, but if you never learn how to defend or fight back, then you are always going to be a target.
And I know there are lots of players that simply don't want to kill anything, sadly they need to remain in Solo or PG because these ships have weapons and they will be used.
Consider how boring a game like Unreal Tournament would be if all the opposition ever did was run and hide. Not a lot different here, really.
You and I are game content, its that simple.
And whatever C&P develops into won't make any difference to those who wish to kill for fun, consider what gun laws IRL do, all they do is keep guns out of law abiding citizens hands, real criminals,killers, will never be without what they need to commit crimes. And for many, knowing that getting caught could mean death or jail, rarely prevents them from doing what they are going to do.
 
I was thinking about this sort of thing this morning, can't even remember why. Ended up brainstorming something I think would be neat to see:
  1. New crime added, simply called "Piracy". This is a bounty-level crime that you commit when firing a hatchbreaker at someone, instead of it being "Assault" as it is now. It would be treated as a similar level to trespass now, where it's still a bounty that makes it legal to shoot you, but doesn't summon authority ships.
  2. Interdiction also upgraded to the lowest of the low level bounty, but again doesn't summon authority ships until you actually assault someone.
  3. If a player has zero notoriety and keeps their nose clean for 2 hours (same as losing a point of notoriety they don't have) any bounties <5000cr are downgraded into fines.
  4. If a player does have notoriety, ignore that part about cops not showing up. If a notorious player interdicts someone, for instance, the cops won't wait for them to start shooting.
  5. optional: have the cops show up at a security level 1 grade lower for piracy and two grades lower for interdiction? ie. lowsec won't come for these crimes at all, medsec will only come for piracy (on a lowsec response timer), and highsec come for interdictions with the reponse you'd expect for an assault in lowsec? Might actually make low/medium/high sec mean something.
tl;dr is that doing just about any crime while notorious would bring the cops running, but nonviolent crimes would bring a slower (or nonexistent) police response while giving you a bounty that makes it legal for your victim to defend themselves.
 
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