Crime Update Discussion

[Rankaze]

They will also have a lot of fun waiting outside to bump into ships so the other guy gets blown up by the station as they leave if they are breaking the speed limit.

I also figure most people won't even know about the speed limit until it is too late, and this forum will be filled with "I got blown up by the station" threads

Count on it. Even if they put it on GalNet, how many people don't bother reading GalNet? More than a few, I imagine...

Aha! So that's why they're giving us GalNet in our ships! To give us something to read while we're cruising at a blistering 95 m/s from the 5km no-fire limit to the station!

 

[DrKronic]

I'm new to this game(have it for 2 weeks), my impressions of this crime update are not good, I think you kill valid piracy which really isn't the same as psychotic murdering(which should be punished)

I play as a bounty hunter, mainly hunting in RES sites because players are hard to find with bounties, kinda interested in piracy and actually did it once getting some slaves as a reward from a transport, that was fun

also I got totally destroyed by a player in a fer-de-lance for no reason, was in a vulture lol, lost like a million in bounties he interdicted me and killed me no warning with the help of his friend, his penalty was extremely minor under current system, if anything(a few thousand credit bounty to my half million insurance cost)

BUT even with that I don't think the new system is better, you should keep the system simple, the ramming thing can be exploited the other way by naughty players (duh)


if anything make things "crimes" and assign certain bounties to them, like assault is pretty minor, maybe even a fine at first, while destruction of a ship is actually a bounty that you can't clear

I get tons of bounties I have to wash while bounty farming in RES sites because of stupid cops, my wingmates etc getting in the way of my guns

or better yet I'm hostile to the pirate faction so sometimes I forget and shoot them before the scan is done, PRESTO BOUNTY

under the new system THAT would be semi-perm?

TL DR KEEP IT SIMPLE

 

[Syax]

Arggh, it's all too much....I just want to fly among the pretty stars and shoot things with my lazers. lol

 

[kingchub]

about the speed limit, something that may have been overlooked is having a cracked open canopy and the need to get into the station atmosphere asap. how will this be addressed?

 

[Robert Maynard]

about the speed limit, something that may have been overlooked is having a cracked open canopy and the need to get into the station atmosphere asap. how will this be addressed?

The speed limit is not subject to a fine for simply speeding - there has to be a collision before criminal charges are dished out.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Arggh, it's all too much....I just want to fly among the pretty stars and shoot things with my lazers. lol

From a recent post by Sandro:

Combat and law are pretty significant elements in Elite: Dangerous, which was never intended to be an "arcade space shooter". Actions have consequences. This change is to hopefully remedy the issue that crime often does *not* have much consequence at the moment.

 

[kingchub]

The speed limit is not subject to a fine for simply speeding - there has to be a collision before criminal charges are dished out.

i understand that but i think it could lead to unfortunate collisions. Wouldn't it have been more practical to increase the radius of the loitering zone so that people could not hang around outside stations?

 

[CMDR M Kozak]

about the speed limit, something that may have been overlooked is having a cracked open canopy and the need to get into the station atmosphere asap. how will this be addressed?

Sandro has suggested that the docking computer would be immune from the ram penalty so it can move faster.... so fit a docking computer for faster "no-care-in-the-world" docking.

 

[kingchub]

ah excellent

 

[kingchub]

why not make the dc built in on all ships then?

 

[CMDR M Kozak]

never mind. waste of time.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

I'm going to be bluntly honest.

This update, if implemented as described, will drive me out of the game.

1). The ramming penalty is essentially punishing all players (by forcing them to fly excessively slowly, or risk receiving a bounty because some idiot NPC or malicious player places himself in their path) for the actions of a few. It will turn the docking and undocking process, which was actually kinda fun when trying to do it in a relative hurry, into pure mindless tedium and a massive time sink.

2). You just basically ruined the most fun player-organized event that I've ever participated in. So long, Buckyball. It was fun, but it won't be fun anymore in 1.3.

3). The new bounty mechanic is excessively punishing to bounty hunters in numerous ways
- a. Instead of killing an NPC with a Federation bounty, we will now kill an NPC with multiple lesser faction bounties we now have to travel to multiple different systems to collect our money.
- b. In the heat of combat, shooting back at a ship that is shooting at me but has somehow managed to not hit me yet (this can be somewhat difficult to keep up with when trying to evade incoming fire from multiple ships!) now earns me a 7-day bounty? So, if there's a Powerplay goal or a CG going on in that system, I am essentially screwed. All for defending myself against an aggressor.
- c. Bounty hunters tend to fly fast ships, so we're even more punished by the new station speed limit mechanic than other players.
- d. KWS won't pick up dormant bounties, so as soon as that pirate gets a bounty, he can go self-destruct in a Sidey and bounty hunters cannot detect or collect his bounty thereafter.
- e. Why would any player bother being a pirate under these rules anyway? It's not like piracy is profitable. So who will we hunt, besides NPC's?

Basically, you're draining all the fun out of your game because of the actions of a vanishingly small percentage of players that you are too afraid to issue the bans they deserve.

It's unfortunate. I was really coming to love this game. But you're trying very hard to make it unlovable.

I'm not a bounty hunter or a pirate, but the game needs them, and I certainly worry that these changes will not achieve the desired effect. It still seems to be too easy to get away with being a ganker or griefer, since all you have to do is hop away to another system where you are not wanted and you are pretty safe. And you can still launder your bounty with a friend: he kills you and gets the bounties. You have to pay the bounties, but he can give you that money back (or you can launder his bounty in a quid pro quo). Just do it before it gets above the million that seems to have been introduced as a cap. Nett effects is that the bounty is cleared at virtually no cost. Also there are no signs of increased bounties for murder, nor of them putting in the necessary support for 'proper piracy'. Perhaps we need an in-between rule on hunting bounties. How about:

When you use the KWS to discover that a ship has a bounty for a minor faction in the same faction as the current one, then you can attack without getting a bounty yourself.

So you end up with the attack rights of faction bounties rather than minor factions, but with the immediate visibility only of local bounties. A bit like a European wide arrest warrant, only with guns.

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Can our clever ships not know when an aggressor has targeted us and is firing? If it is an NPC, then our client is controlling it already, so it will 'know'. If it is a PC, then there must be some information exchange between the two clients to allow hits to register, so, again, it should be able to know. And we do get the 'under attack' message (sometimes, anyway). I have no problem with the so called friendly fire penalties in most circumstances, but when you are being shot at by several ships it will be impossible to know for sure which ones have hit you. If they target you and shoot, but miss, that should be enough to allow you to shoot back without getting a bounty.

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Ramming is awkward, because it is so difficult to determine intent. But I think these changes merely introduce another way for griefers to operate, similar to deliberately flying into your mining laser. Griefers will be able to cause a collision where they are under the magic speed limit, but the other ship is not. I think FD need more telemetry to help guide the 'was that ramming?' question, and if no damage is done them it should be ignored anyway. I think I have had 2 collisions in the last 4 months, both probably accidental to both parties (they were to me). It should be pretty obvious to spot pilots that loiter around spaceports and have had lots of collisions.

 

[Weps]

What people seem to forget is that FDEV have to cater to all the customers who bought the game. Some of those customers like to be traders, like play at a moderate pace, and get annoyed when they are being killed deliberately and repeatedly by others, without any real reason. Some other customers like to play the anarchy type, they like to kill other players just for the fun of it and not get locked out of the game by doing so.

So FDEV are between a rock and a hard place. They have to find some middle ground to allow both types of gameplay but prevent one side from feeling on the short end of the stick. This is what these changes are meant to achieve - they are not designed to eliminate anarchic killing altogether (otherwise we could have just had automatic billion rebuy costs for any player kill - or simply invincible players to one another). The legacy fine mechanic is simply there to prevent repeated sociopath attacks in a certain area. This way there is some retribution for the actions of the attacker (because he has to move or pay the fine), and some relief for the victim (knowing that his attacker has to move).

I believe FDEV will achieve this objective, because I have seen both type of complains on the forum in the past days. I've seen people complain that this will kill PvP, and I've seen people complain that the penalties are not high enough. In my opinion, FDEV are on the right track.


As for the friendly fire and speed limit mechanics: just be a better pilot. I am having the impression that everyone who complains about this is not confident in his skills as a pilot. I too have accidentally shot security ships and rammed into other haulers, and you know what? It was entirely my fault. If I would have paid more attention to my windshield and to my sensors I could have prevented any of those events.

 

[EdzUp]

Cant FDEV have a poll on the proposed changes then we can air our points at the proper time and they will get a general census of how the general game players actually want.

Its proposing changes where loads feel its not wanted that are causing all these posts.

 

[Kezzer]

Hi Faded Glory,

Just had it confirmed that it is indeed a bug within the game:

We are aware of this happening and it is under investigation. Thank you for reporting.

Just thought I would let you know as promised.

Kezzer a.k.a. CMDR SOS4Biz

 

[Indy Original]

Hi everyone, I've started a thread relating to the new crime system outlined in yesterday's Dev Update and why I find it lacking... if anybody wants to go and comment on it or anything, here it is:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=141915&p=2175218&viewfull=1#post2175218

It's possible that it will just get merged into this thread, but I had to at least try and get the devs attention! Any support would be gratefully accepted.

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

Hi everyone, I've started a thread relating to the new crime system outlined in yesterday's Dev Update and why I find it lacking... if anybody wants to go and comment on it or anything, here it is:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=141915&p=2175218&viewfull=1#post2175218

It's possible that it will just get merged into this thread, but I had to at least try and get the devs attention! Any support would be gratefully accepted.

It seems very unlikely that they have failed to notice the noise. They may not act on it if they still think they are right - they can be stubborn at times. It seems likely to me that most of the comments on these threads will have been brought up during their internal design discussions. But perhaps someone has said something that they had not thought of before that might be enough to change their minds.

 

[ianw]

We know it's a work in progress and we haven't even tested it yet - so there isn't much point banging the table until we have feedback from the beta.

 

[Indy Original]

But perhaps someone has said something that they had not thought of before that might be enough to change their minds.

I know it's a slim chance, but that's what I'm hoping for... thanks for throwing me a bone! I've got to go out now, anyway - will my thread survive on its own? I suppose that really will be the acid test...

 

[steevaavoo]

- a. Instead of killing an NPC with a Federation bounty, we will now kill an NPC with multiple lesser faction bounties we now have to travel to multiple different systems to collect our money.

This I can handle - if a little time consuming - on one condition: That we are given some clue as to where we are supposed to pick up the bounty!

Getting one to collect from "Green Fingers Plant Specialist Faction" for example, is utterly frustrating when one has no idea where they operate.