Deliberate Ramming

Seems to me that a series of logical gates could handle ramming and the severity of any response or fine. You have two ships colliding.

Ship 1:

- Was impact within 1KM of mail-slot? If Yes, +1, No -1
- Was Ship 1 travelling >100 M/S? (Y/N) If Yes, +1, No -1
- Did Ship 1 boost within the last ten seconds? Yes +1, No -1
- Were Ship 1 shields up (at least 50% strength) at time of collision? Yes -1, No +1
- Did Ship 1 have docking permission? Yes, -1 No +1
- Was docking computer active on Ship 1 for at least three seconds? Yes -5, No +1
- Was Ship 1 a small ship? Yes, +1 No -1
- Was pilot of Ship 2 killed as result of collision? Yes +3, No -1
Total = X

Ship 2:

- Was impact within 1KM of mail-slot? If Yes, +1, No -1
- Was Ship 2 travelling >100 M/S? (Y/N) If Yes, +1, No -1
- Did Ship 2 boost within the last ten seconds? Yes +1, No -1
- Were Ship 2 shields up (at least 50% strength) at time of collision? Yes -1, No +1
- Did Ship 2 have docking permission? Yes, -1 No +1
- Was docking computer active on Ship 2 for at least three seconds? Yes -5, No +1
- Was Ship 2 a small ship? Yes, +1 No -1
- Was pilot of Ship 1 killed as result of collision? Yes +3, No -1
Total = Y

Ex: Let's say Ship 1 was a Python trader and Ship 2 is a shield-less Sidey hanging around outside of a station who rammed the trader deliberately in the mail slot with boost. Python is making a fast approach with dock permission, but without a docking computer. Given that scenario:

X = 2 and Y = 6

Ex 2: Ship 1 is an Anaconda. Docking computer active, not speeding, shields up. Ship 2 is Sidey, no shields, boosts into side of Conda near mailslot.

X = -4 and Y = 6

In both cases, Y is higher than X and should therefore be assessed as being at fault. If the Y pilot dies as a result of the collision, then the blame is on them and the other pilot does not pick up a 5,000 murder bounty. There will be fines assessed to each pilot based on their scores. The fines survive death.



Obviously, those who take care with slow approaches will get much lower fines and should never get dinged for a murder, if deliberately rammed. Those making hot approaches (smugglers and the like) would get higher fines, but should still come out on top of a deliberate ram situation.

EDIT: Added DC use for three seconds minimum.
 
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Had a quick go a finding a hole.
Seems solid!

+1
Rep for the thought. :)

Oops, found a hole.

T7, unshielded, damaged, coming in to dock.
No DC, but is speeding. Died from impact
Anaconda, shielded, boosted, rammed T7, with docking permission. All within 1km.

Anaconda 0
T7 +1

Unless I messed up...?

Never mind, I messed up. Lol

Anaconda is +3, T7 is -2. Lol
 
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Lots of good thinking here, it would seem.

I don't like the high valuation given only for using a docking computer. I never run one, in fact I don't think I've ever owned a docking computer. So my freighter would lose a 5 point advantage in that case.

Perhaps this could be tied to an additional trigger condition:

How many prior seconds had the ship been traveling less than 100m/s? Then score -1 for each prior second, up to max -5.

That would let me fly in legal under the speed limit, without docking computer, and still get that bonus for my safe prior flying. I doubt many suicide ships would fit that condition, especially if they boosted.

Taking it further, though perhaps more math intensive, would be to consider the acceleration delta over the prior 5 to 10 seconds. A ship approaching at a steady pace would show very nearly zero delta. A ship that had been slow or stopped, lurking, and then accelerated suddenly to cause a collision would show a higher delta.
 
The only thing I can think to say here:

If UsingDockingComputer = True Then Fine == 0

In all cases, at all times. If you're using a Docking Computer, you should never be fined, because you are no longer in control of your ship, Fight Control is, and any wrongdoing would be on Flight Control, not you.

Crushed an Orca full of Space Nuns with a Corvette while Auto-Docking? Not on you. Flight Control has some 'splaing to do there.
 
The only thing I can think to say here:

If UsingDockingComputer = True Then Fine == 0

In all cases, at all times. If you're using a Docking Computer, you should never be fined, because you are no longer in control of your ship, Fight Control is, and any wrongdoing would be on Flight Control, not you.

Crushed an Orca full of Space Nuns with a Corvette while Auto-Docking? Not on you. Flight Control has some 'splaing to do there.
What if you line yourself up and then activate the docking computer so it has no choice but to ram another ship? In my experience it's pretty derpy at best.
 
What if you line yourself up and then activate the docking computer so it has no choice but to ram another ship? In my experience it's pretty derpy at best.
I'd say if the Docking Computer is unable to perform basic collision avoidance (basic slowing or stopping), it should be fixed.

EDIT: I misunderstood the example situation.
 
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More simple solution would be
if within fire zone, x collisions / y time = death by station.
Pick a ratio that makes sense.
 
What if you line yourself up and then activate the docking computer so it has no choice but to ram another ship? In my experience it's pretty derpy at best.
If UsingDockingComputer = True && DockingCompTime >3sec Then Fine == 0
 
I'd say if the Docking Computer is unable to perform basic collision avoidance (basic slowing or stopping), it should be fixed.
If you get docking permission, boost straight at somebody and throttle to 0 to engage the DC less than a second before impact, you will still hit with the DC enabled but it would not be the DC's fault.
 
Edited my post multiple times. Lol
My reading and maths is poor today.


I thought of a semi solution, that would be somewhat simple to implement, but requires players to not be brain dead.
And extended "zone" around the station, maybe 1.5km bigger than the speeding zone, which, when entered, simply warns the pilot of upcoming speeding zone, with a countdown distance to the speeding zone, based on the closest point of entry at current vector (Doesn't show if distance from speeding zone is growing, thus leaving the station).
There are no additional rules here, just a warning.

That way, pilots docking are repeatedly prewarned of the upcoming speed limit, and how far it will be. Instead of just crossing an invisible line, and instantly breaking the law.
So if you're accidentally coming in hot, you can adjust course to bleed off speed before entering the speeding zone, then enter at 100m/s at usual.
Or ignore it entirely. :p
 
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It is already impossible to commit a station ramming crime if the docking computer is active, irrespective of speed. It confers complete immunity.
 
If you get docking permission, boost straight at somebody and throttle to 0 to engage the DC less than a second before impact, you will still hit with the DC enabled but it would not be the DC's fault.
Yep, I just realized what he meant by "line yourself up". I was thinking with the airlock to land, he was thinking "collision course with another ship"...

One idea is that the docking computer cannot be activated unless the ship is a either at stop, or maybe from below 50m/s, and no boost is activated. Just like trying to charge the FSD with gear down, it will fail to engage.
 
Honestly, I'm going to go way out on a limb here, and quote one of those "funny" Flight Control voices: "Learn to fly your ship."

I've actually only been involved in two collisions between the end of the toast rack and my assigned landing pad, in either direction.

The first was an NPC Beluga that came right down the middle of the mailslot like it was the only ship in space - I scrapped myself against the walls to avoid it, but there's no avoiding those things. We went clunk. Their shields failed, they went clunk a few more times, and in total I think three other ships perished along with the Beluga. I got a 400 Cr fine and yelled at a lot.

The second was one of my very few ventures in open, and involved another commander in a shieldless, damaged sidewinder who attempted to slam into me. I boosted out of the mailslot and he did the bug on someone else's windshield. I think I might have laughed at him a little.

Actually, I take that back - there was one other incident, but it was completely on purpose. I was docked to turn in some contracts, when I heard an NPC announce "It's time for me to go." because he was chasing after me for some reason related to another mission I'd not yet completed. I made for the mail slot full speed ahead, and he was right behind me, when I cut my throttle, dropped my landing gear and used the inside edge of the slot as an emergency brake - causing him to slam into me and go splat. That might have been funnier than the failed griefing attempt.
 
If UsingDockingComputer = True && DockingCompTime >3sec Then Fine == 0
While a DC is in control of your ship, the pilot is still in command and responsible for any outcomes. I did think of using the DC while ramming, but immunity in that case could allow a griefer to get away Scott-free. When taken with all the other parameters, the DC alone will not get you off killing someone.

I do like Blips amendment above.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly, I'm going to go way out on a limb here, and quote one of those "funny" Flight Control voices: "Learn to fly your ship."
Your two examples were accidental collisions. This is where you are targeted. Huge difference.
 
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Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous
Frontier
Hello Commanders!

Some thoughts.

Most of the issues we are aware of with ramming are malicious attempts rather than accidents.

The docking computer is meant to confer immunity from prosecution because we know for a fact that it does not have malicious intent.

The challenge with players is that we can never know intent, which is why we have to rely on quite blunt mechanisms that do not give benefit of the doubt (i.e. no crimes for collisions under 100 m/s, always a crime for speeds above, the reason being that it's extremely difficult to cause damage to ships flying below this speed). This is why we never want to assign blame to a Commander using a docking computer when they collide with another Commander's ship; we can never know how much the other Commander might have been to blame.

In addition, we feel that verisimilitude has its limits. Just because in real life a pilot might be responsible for their craft when using autopilot does not mean we want to emulate this in the game.

Also, I'll have to re-check the docking computer: it really should only engage if throttled down *and* going very slowly.

Looking to the future, if/when we get to add a karma system (no ETA, no guarantee) it will allow us to add another layer of finesse to the thorny issue of ramming accountability. Such a system will allow us to track trends over time. An honest Commander who has the occasional mishap will trend very differently to a malicious serial rammer intent on farming salt. We will be able to use this trend tracking (hopefully) even for slow speed collisions, so malicious "grind-rammers" should start to stand out and be punished appropriately.
 
Hello Commanders!

Some thoughts.

Most of the issues we are aware of with ramming are malicious attempts rather than accidents.

The docking computer is meant to confer immunity from prosecution because we know for a fact that it does not have malicious intent.

The challenge with players is that we can never know intent, which is why we have to rely on quite blunt mechanisms that do not give benefit of the doubt (i.e. no crimes for collisions under 100 m/s, always a crime for speeds above, the reason being that it's extremely difficult to cause damage to ships flying below this speed). This is why we never want to assign blame to a Commander using a docking computer when they collide with another Commander's ship; we can never know how much the other Commander might have been to blame.

In addition, we feel that verisimilitude has its limits. Just because in real life a pilot might be responsible for their craft when using autopilot does not mean we want to emulate this in the game.

Also, I'll have to re-check the docking computer: it really should only engage if throttled down *and* going very slowly.

Looking to the future, if/when we get to add a karma system (no ETA, no guarantee) it will allow us to add another layer of finesse to the thorny issue of ramming accountability. Such a system will allow us to track trends over time. An honest Commander who has the occasional mishap will trend very differently to a malicious serial rammer intent on farming salt. We will be able to use this trend tracking (hopefully) even for slow speed collisions, so malicious "grind-rammers" should start to stand out and be punished appropriately.
Official response!

Any word on if this new Karma System will be an automated process, or down to individual CMDRs to "up or down vote" other players? (Kinda like our rep button here on the forums)
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Looking to the future, if/when we get to add a karma system (no ETA, no guarantee) it will allow us to add another layer of finesse to the thorny issue of ramming accountability. Such a system will allow us to track trends over time. An honest Commander who has the occasional mishap will trend very differently to a malicious serial rammer intent on farming salt. We will be able to use this trend tracking (hopefully) even for slow speed collisions, so malicious "grind-rammers" should start to stand out and be punished appropriately.
Hi Sandro!

Will this Karma system also include, say, non anarchy illegal attacks on other players? Or is it reduced to this collision element? And will NPCs, i.e. bounty hunters, and security react to it differently depending on karma level? i.e. more difficult opponent AI.
 
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Official response!

Any word on if this new Karma System will be an automated process, or down to individual CMDRs to "up or down vote" other players? (Kinda like our rep button here on the forums)
I imagine such a thing would be automated. Allowing CMDR's to upvote or downvote other CMDR's? - I can foresee 'vote brigading' in order to mine salt. That's a massive no-no :)
 

Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous
Frontier
Hello Commander CMDR_Cosmicspacehead!

Again, without any promises, we'd definitely want the core system to be automated, using analysis of mechanically verifiable events. Personally, I also like the idea of player driven rep, but it's often very hard to prevent undesirable manipulation that eventually might need intervention to resolve.

***Ninja'd!***
 
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