Development Update 4 - September

[tolm]

Despite that David Braben himself stated, quite clearly that further content was going to be added, along with the optimisation process? didn't that inform all who chose to read it that there was no timescale attached to this effort?

I've boght my 3rd copy of Odyssey recently... Others, with allegedly superior hardware have issues running the DLC, it is so poorly optimised currently that even visiting the same installation several times in a play session may have differing levels of slowdown or stuttering. Allegedly it is being addressed, and equally allegedly, once the optimisation (and completion of the content) is at a satisfactory stage the DLC will be converted for last-generation consoles.

You may not like my, or any other's attitude, possibly as all I am doing is reiterating the same information available to all who opt to read it - but untill the DLC is optimised there is nothing further for the CMs to tell us, they have mentioned that a few times also.

Oh it’s the attitude of not understanding other peoples frustration / disappointment / point of view that is irritating me.

But I agree on the optimisation being needed … I’d just like them to quantify that target along with how long they think the console port itself will actually take:

“Given the last-gen consoles hardware specs, we need the EDO base code on PC to achieve <F> fps on <X> hardware specs before we would feel confident in any console version being viable. Based on current progress, we believe we are at least <M> months away from that, at which point we will be able to start the console build and optimisation process. Our last major console port was Horizons and that took us <M2> months to achieve so, at this point, our best estimate would be releasing for console sometime in <Y>“

 

[tolm]

I am interested in the views of others about the game, far more in what they have to say than how they say it.

However there are some more sensitive souls who are sometimes unable to get past the way something is said & unable to move onto what is being said, they may well agree with the principle point of feedback.

That other sections of the community disagree with a point is interesting, and you make a good point about not just shutting up because of those more sensitive members of the community. But the ideal would be to make a good, well reasoned argument while not having the presentation of that argument be lost in a wave of emotion by the tone or attitude of the poster.

That’s fair. I’m passionate about Elite having played it (on and off) since the original BBC Micro version as a kid in the 80s. As a result I probably get a little more heated that is strictly necessary at times.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I would have been very happy had the released (as it was allegedly so) DLC was feature complete and performing as well as Horizons - it wasn't either. Now Frontier have had to make a public statement (but not an apology) to the effect that those who have already paid for a released product have to wait for an indefinite period of time for that product to be both completed and brought to the standard it was supposed to be at launch.

It was also stated that console development of the DLC would be postponed indefinitely, until the PC product was considered complete.

Nothing has changed that situation: Odyssey is still performing, in comparison to Horizons, terribly and is not stable. It would appear that completion is at least 2 updates in the future - update 9 alleges to continue the optimisation of 8, which we have no idea when that is to be released, so Update 9 is still even further into the future.

Has any of the above altered the original statement made by David Braben - that the PC product would continue to receive content whilst work goes on to 'fix' the issues. Those are the very same issues that elicited the statement on console development being postponed indefinitely.

How can any 'statement' on console development be given when there is no actual indication when the PC product is likely to be significantly improved?

 

[tolm]

I would have been very happy had the released (as it was allegedly so) DLC was feature complete and performing as well as Horizons - it wasn't either. Now Frontier have had to make a public statement (but not an apology) to the effect that those who have already paid for a released product have to wait for an indefinite period of time for that product to be both completed and brought to the standard it was supposed to be at launch.

It was also stated that console development of the DLC would be postponed indefinitely, until the PC product was considered complete.

Nothing has changed that situation: Odyssey is still performing, in comparison to Horizons, terribly and is not stable. It would appear that completion is at least 2 updates in the future - update 9 alleges to continue the optimisation of 8, which we have no idea when that is to be released, so Update 9 is still even further into the future.

Has any of the above altered the original statement made by David Braben - that the PC product would continue to receive content whilst work goes on to 'fix' the issues. Those are the very same issues that elicited the statement on console development being postponed indefinitely.

How can any 'statement' on console development be given when there is no actual indication when the PC product is likely to be significantly improved?

Well, yes, they need to define what it is they actually consider to be “fixed” for the PC version irrespective of anything else.

I also maintain that adding new features into an unstable code-base is a stupid idea. That will only make things take longer.

 

[Rojo Habe]

Twin-Seat Combat SRV

Forgive me if this has already been pointed out over the last fifty-one pages (shame on me for not reading them all), but wouldn't the word "combat" make it an SCV, rather than an SRV?

 

[Rat Catcher]

That other sections of the community disagree with a point is interesting, and you make a good point about not just shutting up because of those more sensitive members of the community. But the ideal would be to make a good, well reasoned argument while not having the presentation of that argument be lost in a wave of emotion by the tone or attitude of the poster.

Indeed!

I remember when the FSS was introduced in 3.3. there were equally sensitive members of the community affected negatively by the loss of the ADS.

You may remember those heady days also.

I also recall very recently a console player asking for news about Odyssey on console because nothing had been said for 10 days - is that sensitive?

 

[angusmadmac1]

You may not like my, or any other's attitude, possibly as all I am doing is reiterating the same information available to all who opt to read it - but untill the DLC is optimised there is nothing further for the CMs to tell us, they have mentioned that a few times also.

The issue may be down to the written word where it can be read or written as condescending and possibly patronising whether it was implied or not .

 

[ubermick]

What it boils down to is that Frontier have two sets of customers who are grumpy with them - PC players who are dealing with an unfinished and still-broken product. Console players who don't have the product at all. One set though has bought and paid for something that needs sorting - and are more plentiful and vocal about it - and what Frontier have done is to say that the focus will be on making it right for those who have paid their money, and deliver the product that was promised. As a result, Frontier have announced that the console release is delayed indefinitely, until after the PC side is sorted, and that more news would be shared when there's news to be shared.

That announcement was just six weeks ago.

In the meantime, every time there's been an update, any communication from Community Managers, any livestream, or even lore update, console players have been shouting "Why is there no update about consoles?!?!"

The answer has been "because there is no update to give, we announced it was on hold indefinitely and there's nothing more to say since last week when people asked."

PC players completely understand that console players are eager for the game and frustrated its been put off, but end of the day you're complaining about something you dont actually have. We're far more frustrated at the fact that our version of it is still broken, lacking in many of the features that were promised at launch, and remember - we've actually paid for it.

Having played it, having experienced it, and even just looking at the overall feedback, I don't really fathom why PS/XBX players are clamouring for a speedier release.

 

[Riverside]

That’s fair. I’m passionate about Elite having played it (on and off) since the original BBC Micro version as a kid in the 80s. As a result I probably get a little more heated that is strictly necessary at times.

I think you are pitching your argument just fine (and my avatar is the Acornsoft Badge I won in 1984 for reaching Elite on the BBC ).

However it is easy for other people, reacting to tone to be hypersensitive & over-react to understandable mild frustration and lash out at other customers, criticising any tone that is less than 100% adoration.

Just ignore the tone of others (who may well rudely wish others would just shut up rather than learning to ignore what they don't like), you have not paid them in exchange for goods or services which should work as advertised.

Frontier are doing what they can, and generally give the appearance that they do take pride in their work and don't want to have a reputation for poor quality, mediocre gameplay. ED, including the Odyssey PDLC have some amazing parts, but there is much to be legitimately frustrated about too.

We just have to be patient & look for clues that the company overall is beginning to learn from the experience that continually making the same fundamental mistakes over & over again is not a good long term business model. And until they do (subjectively each of us will have our own key indications) just don't spend more money on their product if you don't want to.

TL;DR They know it's bad, wait & see.

 

[Riverside]

Indeed!

I remember when the FSS was introduced in 3.3. there were equally sensitive members of the community affected negatively by the loss of the ADS.

You may remember those heady days also.

I also recall very recently a console player asking for news about Odyssey on console because nothing had been said for 10 days - is that sensitive?

You will also remember how patiently & politely I clarified the argument that there was no need to remove it among a sea of distraction & trolls Rat Catcher. Not everyone was able to see that.

(subjectively each of us will have our own key indications)

It is not for us to decide where others draw their line in the sand, only our own line.

 

[Rat Catcher]

The issue may be down to the written word where it can be read or written as condescending and possibly patronising whether it was implied or not .

Always the problem with the written word - unless the writer elects to smatter it with emotes to attempt to elude to the manner a comment was made.

There have been multiple responses - mostly by Sally, as she is very evident in her activity here - by CMs that reiterate the same message, that they have nothing to add to when console development will commence, solely because they cannot say when the optimisation of Odyssey will be complete.

I do understand that my echoing those same messages given may be interpreted as condenscending, or even patronising, because there is nothing further to add to them, hotfix 7.01 (or even Update 7) has done little to "significantly improve performance" and Update 8 (which was suggested to bring such) appears to indicate that significant isn't going to be the best description either.

So, with the situation essentially unchanged, and with no indication when this may 'significantly' alter, there is no change to the original plan as put forward in what feels like the distant past. So nothing can be thrown to console players with any honesty by Frontier - currently they are doing precisely what was outlined.

Is there a politer way to phrase all of that? If there is, kindly read it in that manner.

 

[Rat Catcher]

You will also remember how patiently & politely I clarified the argument that there was no need to remove it among a sea of distraction & trolls Rat Catcher. Not everyone was able to see that.

I do remember, it was exactly that, an attitude toward "a sea of distraction and trolls" that was apparent then, and now.

Frontier wasn't popular, with a minority of the playerbase, introducing that change - and those that supported the change (like me) were often called trolls, for whatever reason.

Now, Frontier are not popular because they are following a plan of action laid out by their CEO, despite the chance (I won't use fact, I'm not entirely sure that however much effort is put into optimising Odyssey that it will ever perform optimally on either the hardware specs laid out for it, or last generation consoles - time will tell) of everyone benefitting from their efforts on completion.

ETA: Frontier decided they were removing the ADS: Frontier have decided that Odyssey will be completed, and performing correctly before porting it to console... We do not, as with the removal of the ADS, dictate to Frontier how they make their decisions, even if they are not to our liking.

 

[Riverside]

I do remember, it was exactly that, an attitude toward "a sea of distraction and trolls" that was apparent then, and now.

Frontier wasn't popular, with a minority of the playerbase, introducing that change - and those that supported the change (like me) were often called trolls, for whatever reason.

Now, Frontier are not popular because they are following a plan of action laid out by their CEO, despite the chance (I won't use fact, I'm not entirely sure that however much effort is put into optimising Odyssey that it will ever perform optimally on either the hardware specs laid out for it, or last generation consoles - time will tell) of everyone benefitting from their efforts on completion.

Given my point here is highlighting the distinction between disagreeing on points of discussion about the game (development direction, issues, whatever) and reacting to the tone of other members of the community I don't think you are making a particularly good point here. You raised a specific example (the removal of the ADS in 3.3), a topic I have argued at length over (although still no Hotel California) which is consistent with my point. Discussion over the tone of a post, or 'reading between the lines' looking for ulterior motives is a distraction from the basic arguments about the game itself.

That someone is frustrated (as I am too) about the ongoing issues with the game is a message that is relevant to, and directed towards the game developers, it is a legitimate, fair comment to say that it is still not going well overall, and this tone, when combined with those of other, similar posts is indicative, useful feedback that Frontier hopefully are picking up on (seems so). Commentary by other members of the community on the tone or writing style of other members of the community is not.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Commentary by other members of the community on the tone or writing style of other members of the community is not.

So, you were not doing exactly that by commenting on 'sensitive' community members? Curious, it is as if there are double standards being applied once more.

 

[Riverside]

So, you were not doing exactly that by commenting on 'sensitive' community members? Curious, it is as if there are double standards being applied once more.

I am recommending the ignoring of tone (while not advocating anything other than basic politeness) yes.

I'm sure you are familiar with the phrase 'discuss the post not the poster'. Highlighting unconstructive behaviour in others and recommending it be ignored by those wishing to express their frustration is not hypocritical, nor is calling out people expressing frustration at other members of the community for not simply ignoring the comments of other contributors.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I am recommending the ignoring of tone (while not advocating anything other than basic politeness) yes.

I'm sure you are familiar with the phrase 'discuss the post not the poster'. Highlighting unconstructive behaviour in others and recommending it be ignored by those wishing to express their frustration is not hypocritical, nor is calling out people expressing frustration at other members of the community for not simply ignoring the comments of other contributors.

Very familiar, as are you, with the phrase.

Tone, as was very sensibly mentioned:

The issue may be down to the written word where it can be read or written as condescending and possibly patronising whether it was implied or not .

Is in the reader's interpretation, surely?

But, as you said, so clearly:

However there are some more sensitive souls who are sometimes unable to get past the way something is said & unable to move onto what is being said, they may well agree with the principle point of feedback.

Discuss the post, not the poster.

I guess this isn't hypocrisy?

 

[Rat Catcher]

I sent a DM to Arf a couple of days ago with the suggestion that a thread might be created aimed specifically at the issue with the lack of information on Odyssey and consoles.

I'm sure he gets plenty - so my offering is unlikely to have any result - but having the topic as its own thread does permit any news at all to percolate much more effectively than the "No news" being given in random posts in an assortment of threads.

 

[LeoBartlet]

I sent a DM to Arf a couple of days ago with the suggestion that a thread might be created aimed specifically at the issue with the lack of information on Odyssey and consoles.

I'm sure he gets plenty - so my offering is unlikely to have any result - but having the topic as its own thread does permit any news at all to percolate much more effectively than the "No news" being given in random posts in an assortment of threads.

Good idea and perhaps they can set up an automatic still no news post every day to keep console players informed.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

PC players completely understand that console players are eager for the game and frustrated its been put off, but end of the day you're complaining about something you dont actually have. We're far more frustrated at the fact that our version of it is still broken, lacking in many of the features that were promised at launch, and remember - we've actually paid for it.

Having played it, having experienced it, and even just looking at the overall feedback, I don't really fathom why PS/XBX players are clamouring for a speedier release.

I was about to jump in and say pretty much this...

While I can totally understand the FOMO and impatience that console players suffer, I can not overstate enough by how much EDO has dented my enjoyment of the game because of a number of issues - 1) performance (on beefy enough hardware here, certainly more powerful than last gen consoles) 2) visual changes 3) scope of content and 4) gameplay mechanics EDIT and 5) bugs... they're coming out of the walls, how could I forget them... though some are now bleeding into Horizons which is worrying.

I turned from pretty much Elite-fanboy (not quite White Knight, but close enough) pre-release to Negative Nancy 5 months later... and am currently seriously debating with myself whether I should just uninstall Odyssey entirely (it's a separate install, I have Horizons installed side by side) and just stick with Horizons for the time being, or even give up on the game altogether (not there yet, but getting closer).

The only real fun I've had with the game over the past few weeks was to go through the early ship progression game, playing my copy of Horizons.

Odyssey itself is still not coming together for me, largely because of the aforementioned 5 issues still being a challenge after 7 patches and various hotfixes. The fact we can still access old-school Horizons is a godsent - of course only a thing because of the continued poor state of Odyssey - but it's on borrowed time and I don't know whether I should invest any further time into it doing stuff I've already done throughout the past 7 years of playing it.

Does all that sound like a game one would want to play sooner than later?

 

[Riverside]

I sent a DM to Arf a couple of days ago with the suggestion that a thread might be created aimed specifically at the issue with the lack of information on Odyssey and consoles.

I'm sure he gets plenty - so my offering is unlikely to have any result - but having the topic as its own thread does permit any news at all to percolate much more effectively than the "No news" being given in random posts in an assortment of threads.

Public relations and customer facing roles that include the imparting of new information typically require repetition. It is normal for customers to not understand, to mis-interpret (hype), and overlook or miss information. It is also normal when there has been some significant (subjective) delay for customers to want to chase up progress (are we nearly there yet dad?).

I think most of the community team have me on ignore now, it is also normal & expected behaviour for people to become frustrated when flaws are pointed out (however politely) time & time again. I think it's probably normal for them to expect individuals to eventually give up trying.