Did Fdev just let slip the origin of Thargoids?
- Thread starter Louis Calvert
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@Anubite Oh please don't start with "O and K" again... https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/382959-These-are-the-warlike-Klaxians/page7
Those symbol you mentionned (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...s-Compendium?p=5958777&viewfull=1#post5958777) are currently of unknown meaning, as seen with the CMDR name on the down right it is a player generated image, they can write whatever they want in it, it doesn't make it true
Those symbol you mentionned (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...s-Compendium?p=5958777&viewfull=1#post5958777) are currently of unknown meaning, as seen with the CMDR name on the down right it is a player generated image, they can write whatever they want in it, it doesn't make it true
The LMC is only 163,000 LY, that's not that far given the span of the disc is approx 100,000ly - You can imagine the Thargoids travelling that either in Witchspace entirely or over a series of long jumps or something - that's also the one that might fit the "logo" on the interceptors and the barnacles...
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@Anubite
Those symbol you mentionned (https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...s-Compendium?p=5958777&viewfull=1#post5958777) are currently of unknown meaning, as seen with the CMDR name on the down right it is a player generated image, they can write whatever they want in it, it doesn't make it true
Agreed, I was going to say this myself. Anubite if you go further in that thread you'll see that I'm one of the (many) people doing the data-gathering to make the logogram charts from the first appearance, and there is only one central symbol that's shared by the Barnacles, Basilisk and cyclops
ONLY ED and the official novels are Lore. Anything else is 100% definitely not. Previous games are at best "legends" -and should only be taken as "stories or rumours". Fdev has a stated policy of "being informed by past games, not bound by them", and Oolite is 100% not Lore, it's just a very good fanfic game
Certain elements have made it from Oolite fanfic to ED because of Drew's novels, where he used certain characters (like Rebecca) in both his Oolite fiction and his officla ED lore, and certain concepts from Oolite and various Elite fanfics over the years will have made the jump due to popularity - that does not make Oolite Lore If you want to read about how I think the Lore from the game and novels ties together, here's my theroy on the Klaxians and Oresrians: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...hargoid-(or-What-s-going-on-in-the-Pleiades-) I attempt to bring together all the things we know from only Lore sources and put together a narrative that makes sense of the little bits we have
IMO -given that I've extensively studied all the Lore sources. Thargoids are not connected to Raxxla at all.
There's plenty of references in past games to theories about the Thargoids being extra-galctic, and since that was in the mind of DB back then, it's not inconceivable that it's made it into ED.
This a good source for "legends", it's the old journals from FFE, if you search for Thargoid, you'll find some good stuff
and you'll see how certain elements of this have made the jump to ED, but not all of it. http://www.dream-ware.co.uk/first-encounters/journals/all/In short - until it appears in ED, or one of the offical novels, it's not Lore. But that doesn'tt mean we can't use outside sources for guesses about what might be coming, or possibilities as to how things link together, but be wary of stating things as Lore or Fact unless it's possible to back them up in-game or via a novel (and some things in the novels might not be accurate, as Drew says:
Oresrians were in the original Dark Wheel novella (alongside the original Elite game) as distinct from Thargoids. They were supposedly a peaceful race similar in appearance to Thargoids. As such they both will appear in some fan-fic by me and other authors.
Klaxians, however, are only present in ED lore.
Within ED, Klaxians and Oresrians have been revealed to be subsets of the generic term 'Thargoid' (so the Dark Wheel description of the Oresrians has been retconned). Also bear in mind these are human names for alien creatures. Those creatures are unlikely to use such terms themselves.
The only two books referring to the Klaxians and Oresrians are T. James' "Out of the Darkness" and my "Premonition". These are based on the lore of the game and can be considered canon in this regard. However, readers should be cautious in assuming that a statement on the Thargoids (Klaxian or Oresrian) by a character in a book is specifically correct in detail. They might be, but that character could be wrong, or lying for their own reasons. The books aren't 'pure lore', they are narratives of events in the ED universe.
Also, many of those characters are in privileged positions of knowledge, which is not available to Commanders in their ships. As such, until your ships' HUD clearly indicates "Oresrian" or "Klaxian" or something else (perhaps by some Galnet or pilots federation universal ID update or something), I think it's fair game to speculate on whether what we're seeing in game is attributable to those labels or not.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Drew.
EDIT: This one is a particular favourite of mine from the Tinfoil journals of FFE (It's clearly mad, but I love the concept):
MATHEMATICAL PROOF CLAIMED FOR 'OCTA-WAVE' THEORY
S.L.A.M
One popular theory proposed to account for the sudden appearance and equally sudden disappearance of the Thargoids received - in the eyes of its supporters at least - a renewed boost recently with the publication of a mathematical model purporting to confirm the predictions made by the theory.
The 'octa-wave' theory, like many others, begins from the observation that no Thargoid home planet has been discovered, and proposes that the Thargoids are a migratory species making their home in deep space. The model claims to support the central idea of the theory, namely that the Thargoid vessels encountered in human space were merely one vertex of a vast octagonal array of migrating ships slowly rotating its way through our galaxy.
According to the theory, it is possible that other parts of the migration may in their turn pass through human space, with, no doubt, dire consequences. Professor Ghesrabeen's analysis seems compelling, but other scientists remain unconvinced.
"If I postulated as many missing data points as he does, and applied half as much computer time, I could give you convincing proof that the Thargoids were writing out the lyrics to Jjagged Bbanner's 'Zirconium Stardrive' in letters six parsecs tall." said one.
S.L.A.M
One popular theory proposed to account for the sudden appearance and equally sudden disappearance of the Thargoids received - in the eyes of its supporters at least - a renewed boost recently with the publication of a mathematical model purporting to confirm the predictions made by the theory.
The 'octa-wave' theory, like many others, begins from the observation that no Thargoid home planet has been discovered, and proposes that the Thargoids are a migratory species making their home in deep space. The model claims to support the central idea of the theory, namely that the Thargoid vessels encountered in human space were merely one vertex of a vast octagonal array of migrating ships slowly rotating its way through our galaxy.
According to the theory, it is possible that other parts of the migration may in their turn pass through human space, with, no doubt, dire consequences. Professor Ghesrabeen's analysis seems compelling, but other scientists remain unconvinced.
"If I postulated as many missing data points as he does, and applied half as much computer time, I could give you convincing proof that the Thargoids were writing out the lyrics to Jjagged Bbanner's 'Zirconium Stardrive' in letters six parsecs tall." said one.
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Since the original Elite it was rumored that the Thargoids come from another galaxy or parallel, spatial dimension. This is the first time that Frontier indirectly confirmed it though.
The Thargoids came from another galaxy, we don't need to visit that place, cause we barely explored 1% of the Milky Way.
The Thargoids came from another galaxy, we don't need to visit that place, cause we barely explored 1% of the Milky Way.
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I would love that.
It would be like a sword of Damocles hanging above our heads: Whatever of the Thargoids we encounter here in our Galaxy is just some sort of colonization effort of possibly a far larger and more powerful civilization from another Galaxy. The Thargoids might be a true intergalactic species and already be present in dozens of Galaxies.
That would be awesome and humbling.
It might be reason to be a bit more careful.
Who knows what resources the Thargoids can command.
Perhaps the relatively peaceful Thargoids we have encountered so far are intergalactic refugees fleeing for a much more aggressive conquering Thargoid faction from another Galaxy.
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There was a theory about Thargoids being some kind of weapon engineered by the guardians, since the part about their (the guardians) skills in manipulating DNA from the logs we got from Ram Tah.
I don't think anything certain has been said about their origin, they could be engineered life-forms, they could be from another Galaxy, from another dimension, from behind a very old garbage can, or many other possibilities.
We know only that we don't know much ^^
Edit: Ah, someone already talked about that on the first page, my bad.
I don't think anything certain has been said about their origin, they could be engineered life-forms, they could be from another Galaxy, from another dimension, from behind a very old garbage can, or many other possibilities.
We know only that we don't know much ^^
Edit: Ah, someone already talked about that on the first page, my bad.
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No matter if thargoids are from our galaxy or another... Stating that there is no direct link to other galaxys within elite lore as such the lizard people in the original elite where from the andromeda galaxy and also state that they have met the thargoids to a fatal end before coming to our galaxy....
I like the garbage can hypothesis.
We need to find it.
I have already looked behind mine.
Nothing going on there.
There were a few small ones behind mine some time ago. Hopefully I had several cans of AX Spray Size 27, so that sub-species won't bother our descendants
They are
Still not a fact ^^ I know it is said so in two books, but Drew also said "The books aren't 'pure lore', they are narratives of events in the ED universe. "
Damn, I think I'm having Vietnam flashbacks from another thread
Have you read both novels? Because before I had, I argued against the Klaxians and Oresrian Lore aspects myself
It boils down to either: a) Oresrians are lying or b) They're not lying.
if a) Then they've maintained a lie (for no apparent gain) for a while (at least 40-60 years or more), and at least two groups have got the same info at different times (unless The Club and Linnaeus are working together/sharing sources (which is massively unlikely given the personalities involved and the secret nature of Linnaeus' base and work)).
if b) Then... there Klaxians are coming or are here and the Oresrians can't beat them.
I agree that we don't yet have all the facts, but if you read both of those novels, you'll see that it's very likely that the Klaxians/Oresrian war is real - to some degree. My theory here delves into it pretty deeply: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...hargoid-(or-What-s-going-on-in-the-Pleiades-)
EDIT: Forgot to mention. The Club and Linnaeus both know about the Civil war, but The Club thinks the Oresrians are trying to use humanity as a meat shield and Linnaeus is working with the Oresrians to create super-human mercenary pilots to help them defeat the Klaxians directly - this to me indicates that The Club and Linnaeus have different sources (I've explained in my Theory that I think The Club have outdated info and Linnaeus' is more recent).
EDIT EDIT: And knowing that the Civil War is real - it seems unlikely that we could have not seen any evidence of it at all yet in almost 200 years of contact with the Thargoids - so, that lends a bit of weight to the idea that the Thargoids are extra-galactic, since the Klaxians have only recently made it to our galaxy, it's possible the Oresrians got here 200 years ago and came across space-monkeys.
It boils down to either: a) Oresrians are lying or b) They're not lying.
if a) Then they've maintained a lie (for no apparent gain) for a while (at least 40-60 years or more), and at least two groups have got the same info at different times (unless The Club and Linnaeus are working together/sharing sources (which is massively unlikely given the personalities involved and the secret nature of Linnaeus' base and work)).
if b) Then... there Klaxians are coming or are here and the Oresrians can't beat them.
I agree that we don't yet have all the facts, but if you read both of those novels, you'll see that it's very likely that the Klaxians/Oresrian war is real - to some degree. My theory here delves into it pretty deeply: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...hargoid-(or-What-s-going-on-in-the-Pleiades-)
EDIT: Forgot to mention. The Club and Linnaeus both know about the Civil war, but The Club thinks the Oresrians are trying to use humanity as a meat shield and Linnaeus is working with the Oresrians to create super-human mercenary pilots to help them defeat the Klaxians directly - this to me indicates that The Club and Linnaeus have different sources (I've explained in my Theory that I think The Club have outdated info and Linnaeus' is more recent).
EDIT EDIT: And knowing that the Civil War is real - it seems unlikely that we could have not seen any evidence of it at all yet in almost 200 years of contact with the Thargoids - so, that lends a bit of weight to the idea that the Thargoids are extra-galactic, since the Klaxians have only recently made it to our galaxy, it's possible the Oresrians got here 200 years ago and came across space-monkeys.
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As I said in the other thread, no I didn't read them. But it's not about what is written in them, it's the fact that books are to be taken as "narrative content" rather than "pure lore" as Drew said. Nothing written in the books is "the truth", it is "a truth" from a character point of view, at least that is what has been said about it and also what I understand from Drew's various statements.
Therefore, it's not proof, if it was a post on these forums we would be saying "Pics or it didn't happen" ^^
I'm not saying that was is written in books is false, I'm saying that the books themselves aren't a fully reliable source of information. It may be true, it may be partially true, it may be false, it is a story built upon events in the game(s), not a chronicle of recorded facts.
And so far, nothing from the books has been proved or disproved (as far as I know of course). It's a kind of grey area.
Edit: You're saying "Osresians are lying or not". What about being lied about the very existence of those two clans? That may be answered in books, but that would be an auto-validation (what is written is true because it's written in the books)
Therefore, it's not proof, if it was a post on these forums we would be saying "Pics or it didn't happen" ^^
I'm not saying that was is written in books is false, I'm saying that the books themselves aren't a fully reliable source of information. It may be true, it may be partially true, it may be false, it is a story built upon events in the game(s), not a chronicle of recorded facts.
And so far, nothing from the books has been proved or disproved (as far as I know of course). It's a kind of grey area.
Edit: You're saying "Osresians are lying or not". What about being lied about the very existence of those two clans? That may be answered in books, but that would be an auto-validation (what is written is true because it's written in the books)
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Can someone point to the list of "Official" ED novels, and their order?
Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
The novels are all independant stories and have no order except some take place in the recent past of the ED universe.
Drew said: "readers should be cautious in assuming that a statement on the Thargoids (Klaxian or Oresrian) by a character in a book is specifically correct in detail. They might be, but that character could be wrong, or lying for their own reasons. The books aren't 'pure lore', they are narratives of events in the ED universe. ".
However, as I've said, two novels set in different time periods featuring entirely unrelated character sets, motives and narratives both share two common factors:
1) Two races of 'Thargoids' called Oresrians and Klaxians.
2) They're in a long-duration civil war for survival.
Those two broad-stroke facts remain the same in both novels. Again, from Drew: "Within ED, Klaxians and Oresrians have been revealed to be subsets of the generic term 'Thargoid'" I think that's fairly definitive that Oresrians and Klaxians are "in ED" and Lore.
Drews remarks were about narrative details - if you read up from his quote you'll see it's me he's replying to as I'm discussing details of the The Club's specific interactions in the novels and actually arguing your points about us not knowing whether they're telling the truth, because in Premonition there's literally just a few lines of dialogue under questionable circumstances that give us that info
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?p=6009199&viewfull=1#post6009199It's clear that Fdev has approved the Oresrian-Klaxian narrative for use in two distinctly separate sections of ED Lore in two different time periods (Linnaeus' and The Club) - which means it's almost certainly fact - even if details of that fact, as I said, are different. The Club has the "meat shield" details (and built entire multi-decade spanning plans around that "truth") and Linneaus has the "Oresrians want human help" details (and built multi-decade spanning plans around that "truth").
Those "details" are what I think Drew means - the plot points that motivate the characters in the novels: Are the Oresrians looking for allies, or are they looking to trick us into fighting a war while they escape? I think given what we've learned (again, if you read my theory, there's a lot of stuff relating to this in there), it seems highly likely that the"long-duration civil war" is accurate - although whether the details of that revelation or true or not, we'll have to wait and see - for all we know the Klaxians are the good guys and hunting the genocidal nutjob Oresrians to extinction before they can nova-bomb another galaxy - those are again the types of details I think Drew refers to.
And despite all this, whichever way it ends up (Klaxians or no Klaxians), none of this actually impacts on the origin of the Thargoids themselves - the purpose of this thread
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Here's the list: https://www.frontierstore.net/books.html
There is an order, but I don't think it's immediately obvious. For example Reclamation takes place in 3300, Premonition is 3302 (I think, maybe the cusp of 3303), Out of the Darkness takes place around 3270. I've not read the rest, but my guess is they will either be post 3300 or just prior.
While I agree with most of what you said, that still doesn't mean that this "backstory" is linked with what we see today in-game.
Saying that "Yes they are fleeing from Klaxxians" implies that they're Osresians, when it could be anything. Those clans could be done with their war, it could be a third unknown clan, anything really. Nothing proves it so far, it is just theory, not fact. We're not seeing O fleeing K, we're seeing Thargoid ships with no clear differences, sometime in wings. All the rest is still theory, and that's the whole point I was making in the other thread, the only fact we know is that we see a single (as in, not shooting each others) Thargoid force.
You're making a guess, sure, an educated guess, with possible links to book-based lore, but still not a fact
Edit: And indeed, we're getting carried again, sorry TC, getting back on thread purpose ^^
Saying that "Yes they are fleeing from Klaxxians" implies that they're Osresians, when it could be anything. Those clans could be done with their war, it could be a third unknown clan, anything really. Nothing proves it so far, it is just theory, not fact. We're not seeing O fleeing K, we're seeing Thargoid ships with no clear differences, sometime in wings. All the rest is still theory, and that's the whole point I was making in the other thread, the only fact we know is that we see a single (as in, not shooting each others) Thargoid force.
You're making a guess, sure, an educated guess, with possible links to book-based lore, but still not a fact
Edit: And indeed, we're getting carried again, sorry TC, getting back on thread purpose ^^
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