Direct player to player trades. Why is this missing?

First off, mandatory recognition and gratitude for keeping such an awesome franchise alive. It's latest incarnation is truly amazing and I anxiously await the release of the upcoming 'seasons'. I hope the devs will be able to deliver on all of them considering their size and scope.

Myself and a few good friends spent the entire summer of 85' playing Elite and we have all been waiting for this day to come, for what seems like a very long time.

Sorry if that seemed to drag on but I had to get it off my chest. :)

As a devoted player, I hope to play for a long time to come. I always play with friends, rarely alone. As of late, the lack of a direct player to player trading option has annoyingly presented itself on many occasions. Trading player to player either via credits, commodities, ships, modules or anything else you might want to trade does not exist in Elite’s current state. There are, of course a couple of inconvenient workarounds for this but nothing I was satisfied with. Although, I would love to see all those types of trading implemented, my focus for this post is Credits. This is the base for ANY multiplayer game that includes trading as a core part.

After asking around, reading multiple posts in your forums, reddit and anywhere else they pop-up.The same answer kept floating to the surface.

The developers intentionally left this option out of the game.

Now whether this is 100% the reason the dev’s chose this or just the consensus of the internet at large, I do not know. Something I always find perplexing about questions like these, is that there is almost never somewhere you can go, listed at the source, that not only answers the question at hand but gives a meaningful and descriptive answer detailing the thoughts and reasoning behind it. So, being the inquisitive person I am, I couldn’t help but ask myself...

Why O' Why was this intentionally left out of the game?
Which in turn, sent me on another quest to reveal any possible, logical reason this was not included in a game that uses trading as not only a class/role but as one of the core concepts of the game. Can’t trade player to player? Really?

Here are the questions, answers and possible solutions that I discovered on my journey.

Q: Does trading directly from one player to another somehow make the game unfair?

A: Um, no. Duh.

The first reason that comes to mind is unfair, player advantage for those of us with more affluence. A.k.a. Jimmy pays 20 quid @ Asian Game Coins Market for eleventy billion credits on ED. Now, Jimmy can buy any ship he wants, outfit it with anything he wants and have plenty of credits leftover to buy all that other stuff he didn't really need. All he had to do was drop some bank and poof! He's pwning in Elite.

NOT ELITE, because even though he's wasted 20 quid, he still has to level his character to achieve said status and even with a super awesome gunship that's not gonna' happen. ED seems to be very unfriendly to Jimmy and his ilk. So even with this advantage, he's still gonna' have to learn stuff. Something Jimmy really doesn't like to do. He's still gonna' have to grind stuff and he's still gonna' have to find stuff. All on his own merit and there is no amount of money he can spend to make that happen any quicker. EVEN IF, what possible reason would Jimmy have to play if all this could simply be bought for him?

Griefing? Well, maybe if he just kept suiciding himself in public viewing so we could all shed tears knowing how much we wish we had that precious Vulture or Corvette. After that, I'm just not that inventive, so I'd have to put some very serious thought into the how and why. Equating to a lot of work and remember! Jimmy hates working for stuff, hence his propensity to just throw money at things.

Not only, this doesn't really hurt anyone but Jimmy's (or Jimmy's parents) pocket book. Isn't the Elite Universe very dependent on commodities trading as an integral part of its experience? Forgive me if it seems I am comparing shades of blue but isn't the commodities market based loosely on an exchange of goods for money? Sorta' like something called a stock exchange? Isn't that kinda' reminiscent of capitalism?

How else does this harm the game or persons that play it?

Can't I just circumvent this restriction by waiting outside an easily accessible docking area and 'feeding' my buddy cargo as he docks and re-launches?

Couldn't I also just farm a whole lotta' cr then have my buddy meet me somewhere it's safe and pirate me for it?

Both still give me what I want but both are infinitely more painful than just transferring the credits from one account to another with the click of a button. Something that is fundamental in any game with trading and piracy. Why punish your good players for something you can't stop anyways?

So far as I can tell, either because the galaxy is too vast (not complaining, I love it that way and so do my wingman) or over all player numbers are lower than intended (or both) there just isn't enough people to even make this relevant enough it warrants the exclusion of it. Hence, making it more of a hindrance than an effort to achieve balance.

Q: Is it politically correct? Does it take advantage of the less advantaged?

A: Who cares! It may actually even benefit those unfortunate souls. Kinda' like a misplaced charity.

Okay, let's say that's not really it and I got it all wrong. It's more about the moral implications of game money sweat shops in 3rd world countries and your company doesn't want to be associated with contributing to poor, young, Lang Chi's exploitation for less than minimum wage. Even though without it, there wouldn't have been a job in the first place or to mention his/her's living conditions before said job or even that the pay rate may be equivalent/above that countries cost of living. There is really no way we can equivically know this, making it yet another erelevant reason to exclude it. And besides, isn't Lang getting payed to play ED anyways? Sounds like a dream job to me!

To be honest, I truly hope that's not it, because gaming development should be more about creating incredible games. Not about, "Are we being politically correct?". There is way too much of that going on lately as it is. With things like the Black Market, Illegal Goods & Stolen Goods (Doh! Damn those pirates!) it would seem very silly indeed if that were the case. Can’t a game company leave political choices and stances to politicians? What should your dev’s truly be concerned about? Should it be, “How would this addition to our game impact society?”. Or should it be, “How would this addition make our game more appealing to play?”.

One more question here, perhaps even more delving than the others, “What responsibility do game developers have in shaping the moral/ethical fiber of our communities?”. If your internal voice answered anything but, “None whatsoever.” you’re wrong. They should have absolutely no other concern, other than making the game the funnest it can possibly be.


Narcotics and slaves are my personal favorites for the illicit and immoral black marketplace choices. After looking at the big list, if I may, I would like to suggest you add a few more items and get rid of stuff that sounds redundant and even bordering on the nonsensical in some cases. Things that sound like they may actually be illegal rather than, 'Motrona Experience Jelly' (is it for sore feet?) or 'Resonating Separators' (for a particularly hard to open jar lid?). A couple suggestions would be, 'Surprise! Enema Powder', 'Colon Blowcaine' & 'Peter Poppioids'. Your welcome, those are yours to keep, free of charge. :)

Q: Is it because of those dirty nasty gold-farming bot masters?

A: It shouldn't be, no but as with anything that adds ease of use for real players, so to does it leave way for the dark ones to detestably profit from the eagerness of others in their quest to avoid the grind. May god have mercy on their sidewinders.

**SIDE NOTE: Sometimes I may go just a tad overboard with the embellishments. I do this to make something mundane appear unique and because I enjoy writing not just for the sake of making a valid point but also to entertain. So please forgive me this last section and transgression in hopes you enjoyed it.

It's got nothing at all to do with any of that and once again, all that came before was merely page filling drivel. The REAL DEAL is about gold farming, destabilizing your game's economy and sucking the zeal from the souls of your devoted fan/player base. Oh I am a fan! Believe you me.

Here comes that Jimmy again. With his open ended credit card and his 'Federal Gunship or bust' attitude. Having no clue or independent thought of his own, he simply wants to blow up big stuff and watch newbs cry. Knowing full well, his mom's pocket book and his good buddy, Lang, are going to do all the grind work for him.

This 'trade' agreement destabilizes the game world economy, either making things super cheap or adversely, incredibly expensive. In turn, this alienates your larger fan/player base. Forcing them to flee to other more well balanced games that don't have bots spamming the chat channels offering deals you can’t pass up because hey, “Cheap Vulture!”.

Traveling and exploring faster than any human can do, the bots very quickly spread, reaching a peak saturation point within weeks of their initial infection of the server. They invade and monitor every possible nook and cranny of Elite's galaxy. Unwittingly and with no forethought of the implications, their masters order them to follow their directives. Turning a once proud, interactive and alive community into a mostly playerless void. The greater expanses that were once lucrative trade lanes become patrolled by the largest of the heavy combat ships, completely upgraded and fully mounted. They search aimlessly, hoping for any players foolish enough to stumble into their areas. When presented, they swallow entire factions of ships wholesale. Mocking their helpless opponents, all the while devouring their remains. Leaving nothing to floatilla. What they cannot consume, they destroy.

Inevitably, this becomes a game world of ONLY players like Jimmy. With only each other to prey on, they quickly become disinterested. Forced to see the prospect of lonely, empty darkness, they become unwitting harbingers. Their fever fueled by their unquenchable desire to dominate. If they cannot buy it, it’s immediately assigned to salvage, dismantled and even the smallest parts or modules are tossed into the smelting furnaces. Progressively having to spend more and more to advance beyond the few rivals they have. Just like the proverbial panda bear abandons a crashing Type-6 Transporter, their exodus is imminently and mutually assured. Leaving only the bots in their galactic wake.

Blind and emotionless, the bots continue vainly calling out, searching for just one more mark. Increasingly more desperate and frantic are their attempts. Hunting for the very last dollar they continue to squeeze until not even the cold remnants of the server reserve remain. Flickering out, one by one, until all the calls have grown silent. Retreating back to their base CPU’s, their Generals begin planning a new invasion of more lucrative, populated game worlds.

Until only the hum of the main server pulses, like a remote warning beacon. Ominously cautioning passers by to keep their distance, less they re-awaken Jimmy, the farmers and their army of bots.

Wow. That's a pretty dark and grim future for a game that's potential rivals the light of a supernova.

Surely there is an answer and surely there is something we can do to avoid this. Other than the simpleton effort of just removing it and throwing it away. Making good players suffer for the acts of those few like Jimmy. And hey, let's try not to blame Jimmy to much either. Outside of always wanting to pay for it instead of earning it, Jimmy is actually a pretty swell guy in real life. He has a mom, she has a credit card and Jimmy knows he can use it whenever he needs to. He even donates to the red cross at least once a year. Jimmy is gonna' do what Jimmy does and no amount of removing necessary aspects of a game is gonna' change that. It's just Jimmy, he can't help himself the poor guy.

There is a very bright light at the center of the universe (or so I've been told).


YES! We can not only allow free trade on every aspect but we can also eliminate bots, gold-farmers and even accommodate users like Jimmy. Making everyone happy!

Q: Is it true what they say? Do you have a solution we can all enjoy?

A: Yes! By the power of crisco, open minded devs and the willingness to implement change, we just might pull this off. It really depends on if the devs read the forums, find this post & take it to heart. So probably not, but hey I certainly tried. :)

I've given this a lot of thought so I think it prudent to explain my logic, 1 step at a time which ends in a viable solution that works. Sure it might not be perfect but it gets the job done and it gets us past this whole, “Gold-farmers are Satan's Elves!”

Establishing the existence of tradable currency is as simple as explaining the barter system. Cargo/Commodities sell in the market system for credits. This, unfortunately for now, takes the place of currency trading between players. It's rudimentary and laborious but it's there and if I really, really, really want to I can give you a bunch of credits via cargo drop. Yuck.

Partially quoting from an older post I found, it very relevantly points out that player to player trades (credits, ships, cargo, modules, everything) are extremely necessary for those players wanting to pursue piracy as their career choice (temporarily or permanently). The ability to transfer all of this between players who have no connection to one another other than, "Your money or your life.", is imperative to supporting this role/class. Without its implementation you just simply aren’t a pirate. At the very least, “Your undying devotion or your life? Arrrrrr...”, just doesn’t have the same impact. I don’t think a pirate would even say that really, it’s just all I could think of to fill the quotes.

In fact, if faced with this as their only choice, it wouldn’t surprise me if the player just quit to desktop because they would be to embarrassed and ashamed to do anything else. Sure you can still wear the eye patch and talk like one but piracy should certainly be one of Elite’s paths to reach, well... Elite.

You can't stop the farmers from trying. A farmers gotta' farm just like pirates gotta' pirate. :) Don't hate them, embrace them! As a credit farmer, the incentive is making bank they can put in an RL bank. When they have a decent amount of credits, they sell them back to your companies currency market for what you feel is an equivalent amount of real life money. If done correctly, this makes your company a profit! Again, back to the core of the trading market concept, right?

Now, this is where the magic happens. Rather than waiting for players to make their own trading sites and setting their own values on your game's credits, you as the devs/game producers make these yourself! You set the prices/values. You control the ebb and flow. This could be as simple as a secure trading web site or as in depth as an in-game money market section.

Maybe you could even offer a special membership (one time fee or annual, whatever) that gives currency traders and credit farmers incentives or discounts. Again making your company more profit! Yay! If you wanted to be a little more strict with your currency traders and credit farmers you could make this a mandatory purchase for those wanting to pursue this, forcing them to seriously consider that as their Elite career path. A small but understandable barrier to entry (helps to avoid those nasty sales bots).


Apparently this simple step, single handily eliminates other market sales of your games valuables/currency, sanctioning the official market that your company directs and also has the added benefit of forcing out the less desirable. Those who would rather move to other, more accommodating games that don't require them to 'apply' or 'submit' personal information in order to collect. Nefarious in nature and intent on profiting at any cost those soulless users will then have only 2 choices. Conform or leave.

We’ll see you Satanic Elves in hell!

It was also suggested that this may cause some players to play the currency/valuables market rather than the main, core game itself. As was sometimes the case with other older games that took this same route. I don't really see that as possible for ED, at least as it applies to the majority of players. Anyone who get's this game, gets it for it's sure awesomeness that really, brilliantly stands on it's own. Offering an unfathomable open world with infinite possibilities and having a currency/valuables exchange would just be another facet of that game. If a few of the players eventually become money market traders or currency farmers, so be it. It's their game and like your motto implies....

Let them play it their way. :)

 
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Within 2 days i can get a rookie into a vulture without giving him a dime.

Yes we need player to player trading, but only for commodities and systesys materials. Not for credits.

i had to learn this game on my own, that was really hard. Making credits in a wing is allmost a no brainer.

And jimmy should take a walk or go play COD :D

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And not so long back i came across a guy who tried to sell his ED account on ebay for 500USD. Because he had some small ships... if we can transfer credits there will be some sort of pay to win.
 
Not again... >.<

A few reasons E-bay & Account Hacking.


Besides just transfer cargo.

Yes, as stated above this is the fear.
But I am also pretty sure that a system can be implement that works.
Maybe at stations with special secured "Barter Markets" to keep control for FD.

But we have to wait if they will do at a later (much later time).
For sure not in Season2 but after this, who knows?

Regards,
Miklos
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Yes we need player to player trading, but only for commodities and systesys materials. Not for credits.

If the prices were fixed within prescribed limits by the game in some way then there'd probably be less resistance to player trading.
 
If the prices were fixed within prescribed limits by the game in some way then there'd probably be less resistance to player trading.
yeah but trading to make your wingman rich from your money issnt how it should go.

if player to player trading should be introduced, we should have really rare commodities that we can trade (commodities that you dont trade for credits, but with the coming engineers to do stuff with.) , not dumping a full hold of slaves for your wingmates.
 
Not another thread about this - cant anyone use the search forum to drag up the other 100 discussions or so specifically about the reasons why credit transfers/guild banks and other currency mechanics will never be included in this game!
 
Cargo transfer could use a better system. And it can be done with the tools in the game.

All ships have a cargo scoop. If you deploy your scoop and target a cannister/fragment, you get the graphic to line up the cannister/fragment.

So, when 2 ships have their cargo scoops deployed and target each other, both CMDRs get the same graphic, but this time it's to align with the other CMDRs cargo scoop. At the moment they are lined up, you get the option to transfer cargo. The cannister that needs to be transferred gets fired out of one scoop towards the other scoop.
 
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Give us any good Reason for Player Trading besides giving a new player a better start ?
There is exactly no reason for that and its ok this way.

Otherwise you would attract Goldsellers and the usual Spam from them. I would quickly quit and play only solo with this type of <Ahem>
 
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Give us any good Reason for Player Trading besides giving a new player a better start ?
There is exactly no reason for that and its ok this way.

Otherwise you would attract Goldsellers and the usual Spam from them. I would quickly quit and play only solo with this type of <Ahem>.

There is about a million reasons to do so as it would encourage RPing and new emergent player to player gameplay. Imagine giving out contracts for several different things to other players. Just like the npcs give contracts out to players right now.
 
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There is about a million reasons to do so as it would encourage RPing and new emergent player to player gameplay. Imagine giving out contracts for several different things to other players. Just like the npcs give contracts out to players right now.

Yup, I agree, I have no idea why its missing.
 
OP - you'll have to ask FD their reasons, and they ain't telling, despite the dozens of threads on the topic.

Its one of those things you'll just have to accept until such a time FD reconsiders this, if ever.

Personally i don't care much about the topic, i made my money myself, and when i've helped people out i've helped them by flying with them, not gifting them.
 
Yup, I agree, I have no idea why its missing.


Credit sellers
Boosting friends to the most expensive ships/modules/equipment therefore skipping 95% of the game
Account selling
Pay to Win - ie buy a billion credits for £50

Never ever going to happen
 
Well in ED, money is essentially your "experience" from most other RPGs.

You can't donate experience in EVE, or wow (that I know of!).

If you gave a noobie 500,000,000,000 credits, you effective remove any reason to do anything in the game, except explore.

He'd soon quit from bordem.

Not to mention the other reasons about gold selling and what not.

I do like the cargo transfer idea tho!
 
There is about a million reasons to do so as it would encourage RPing and new emergent player to player gameplay. Imagine giving out contracts for several different things to other players. Just like the npcs give contracts out to players right now.

and it would be a system many would want, but weighed up against the cons, not so much.

any form of ship progression would be obsolete, a sidewinder would be considered a placeholder for a few hours at most, and any form of stepping stones ships would seize to matter.

Any form of trading would be rendered obsolete over time as would the vast majority of missions in any way shape or form.

Opening the door to trading goods or credits would open a door to farmers, exploiters, and other of the sorts whom today have zero zip nada gain from ED xP

i even encountered a goldseller in SC and i dont even know how trading will end up being there if theres gonna be any, but yeah...

for rp stuff i could imagine allowing a special system trading "worthless" things, stuff one cant sold, but it would need other things to have meaning, and trading in general would be nice.

i would love to give my friend a good python, he direlt wants one so bad, does not speak about anything else, but on the same note, im glad i cant, because he learns to enjoy a game in a new sense. A game where you cant reach your hand out and just receive hehe


tl:dr - hackers and goldsellers. Good thing that would kill most forms of mechanics and progression in elite as it is today
 
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