Direct player to player trades. Why is this missing?
- Thread starter UberCrue
- Start date
Why not also for Credits? What on earth?
You can always limit the amount of credits.
ONE EXAMPLE:
I would like to see that a player is able to set a Bounty on another players head who killed him. Max. it e.g. to 2 million credits and player A is only able to do it if / after player B killed him. Then he's hunted by other players and the one who knocks him out, gets 2 Mio. Credits. How much fun would that be.
But FD is very restrictive in giving us multiplayer "tools". Nothing goes. That's where the big BOOOOOOOOOOOORING comes from.
You can always limit the amount of credits.
ONE EXAMPLE:
I would like to see that a player is able to set a Bounty on another players head who killed him. Max. it e.g. to 2 million credits and player A is only able to do it if / after player B killed him. Then he's hunted by other players and the one who knocks him out, gets 2 Mio. Credits. How much fun would that be.
But FD is very restrictive in giving us multiplayer "tools". Nothing goes. That's where the big BOOOOOOOOOOOORING comes from.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
How would this be restricted to targeting players who had actually destroyed the player placing the bounty?
What do you mean? I don't know exactly what you want to say? Can you repeat your question in a different way?
Do you mean that other players would attack the player who placed the bounty on B? What I described here (and in more detail in another thread) is a player generated mission for other players, or even more, a mission system that enables players to generate PvP or multiplayer missions. If the game would support us in doing so, with other features and ideas, the multiplayer experience would increase heavily. I'm really bored with Elite as I bought it for the multiplayer part, not NPC-based gaming. But the "tools" are not there. CGs are ok but just a tiny start etc. ...
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Why would it need to be?
If I'm flying my cutter into port, and you zip in front of me in your Vulture and nearly cause me to slam into the wall, why shouldn't I be able to put a million credit bounty on your head?
Even if players inconsequentially start placing arbitrary bounties on other people for no reason, what does that hurt?
The issue is if player bounties are done they can't be done in the Traditional Frontier Development fashion of "Well, lets give it a good try and move on to something else before we finish." They need to do it right.
First, if I want to place a bounty tax me 15% of what I'm placing.
If I place a bounty on a player, make that a mission on the BB's in the systems that they are in or near, but only if the system authorities, NPC bounty hunters or another player scans the bounty. If you don't have that BB mission, a player bounty is not considered in "Wanted" status and thus attacking the player incurs a fine or bounty in response. Once Crime and punishment is fixed, this solves harassment by placing a bounty just to have an excuse to pop someone.
Next: You can only collect in bounty value the value of the insurance replacement of the target's ship per kill. No more jumping in a sidewinder to get your bounties cleared by a friend.
Do those 3 primary things and you have a strong foundation for a working player bounty mechanic. No restrictions on how you can place bounties needed, which allows players freedom to use the system creatively without abusing it.
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Arbitrary and useless restriction. If I accidentally get a friend's Corvette blown up, I don't want to have to spend the next 2 months trading credits with him to give it back.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
To avoid spurious bounties being levied on players - which could constitute a form of harassment.
Player imposed bounties were discussed in the DDF. The final proposal on Criminality included this:
And a lot of those mechanics just got rolled into other parts of the game, sans the players placing their own bounties part.
Players can use anything to harass other players. I can grab a T-9 and go to a belt to drop toxic waste on the miners. That's effectively harassment. Is that against the game's rules? No. Is it against the spirit of the game? No. In fact many players would find it hilarious.
There's a difference between harassment and targeting. What I outlined prevents targeting simply because it becomes a hassle. That's all you need to do.
Or when docked, the option currently to abandon/jettison cargo, could instead be to give it to one of your three potential Wingmen (who are also docked there too)! Done
This would of course increase cargo transfer efficiency with what ever "issues" people foresee this creating!? eg: We sit in a station, and I simply buy Gold, immediately give it to a wingman, who instantly sells it (for a lower price of course)...
EDIT: And this suggestion of course is only a tiny step away then from direct CR transfer
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Bit of an aside, but here you go. Simon Cowell's singing show (forget which one, the wife watches it when I'm gaming) had a couple of women contestants. The first had been singing professionally since she was eleven. She was twenty-something at the time and had been performing in dive bars, nightclubs and seedy establishments looking for her break. She had multiple tattoos, had taken several knocks, looked like a pro and experience had taught her many skills that she used daily.
The second was straight out of high school and as naive as a new born. Both could sing, but I was under no doubt who could handle the fame better. The experienced singer, obviously. The one who had been there and done that.
Learning to fly a Sidey, then a Hauler, Adder, Viper or Cobra will teach you how to play the game. That experience will see you in good stead as you progress. So when you get into a Vulture, you A) know how to fly and manage your ship B) know the in's and outs of the ships you took to get there and can use that knowledge to your advantage in a fight.
A new player getting a gift of a few million from a buddy can go straight into a Vulture who will then proceed to get it shot out from under him many times over because they have no idea what to do. Frustration, annoyance, and eventually a rage quit is soon to follow. It isn't the ship, it's the pilot who determines the outcome of a battle. No ship can equalize inexperience.
If you have a buddy you want to get in the game, start them at the tutorials then let them play their way up the food chain. Anything else is a disservice and frankly a disaster waiting to happen.
The second was straight out of high school and as naive as a new born. Both could sing, but I was under no doubt who could handle the fame better. The experienced singer, obviously. The one who had been there and done that.
Learning to fly a Sidey, then a Hauler, Adder, Viper or Cobra will teach you how to play the game. That experience will see you in good stead as you progress. So when you get into a Vulture, you A) know how to fly and manage your ship B) know the in's and outs of the ships you took to get there and can use that knowledge to your advantage in a fight.
A new player getting a gift of a few million from a buddy can go straight into a Vulture who will then proceed to get it shot out from under him many times over because they have no idea what to do. Frustration, annoyance, and eventually a rage quit is soon to follow. It isn't the ship, it's the pilot who determines the outcome of a battle. No ship can equalize inexperience.
If you have a buddy you want to get in the game, start them at the tutorials then let them play their way up the food chain. Anything else is a disservice and frankly a disaster waiting to happen.
Best not make direct player interaction other than shooting each other or dropping laughable scraps of cargo for each other to gobble up an integral part of the game.
It could be misused! *shudder*
On a more serious note: I would hope that trade eventually becomes one of the important player interactions in Elite. Just being able to shoot others while doing all major trade with the procedurally generated computerized BGS is a rather dry implementation of a MMO space sim.
But that would require player trade to provide any benefits in the first place, which is not the case in the current game mechanics. I'm hoping that crafting may be a gateway towards meaningful player trade, but we'll see.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Dropping cans in a RES stops being an annoyance to the miner as soon as the miner leaves the area / instance / mode. A bounty would persist until collected (presumably).
If players could place a bounty on any other player for no reason then it would facilitate harassment by proxy - with the bounty hunters being none the wiser that they were facilitating the harassment.
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Because then it becomes a rich player's feature.
I just got started and bought a shiny new hauler. First time I'm taking off and you barge in with your cutter demolishing my feeble Hauler. This hauler only has the option to place a bounty of several thousand credits on your head.
Fair enough. But the way you want credit transfers to be implemented in the game (no restrictions whatsoever) is probably never going to happen. FDEV would rather reconsider selling credits for real money on the Frontier Store.
I'm all in favor of player-to-player transactions, but I'm also being realistic about how the devs view the whole matter. Just trying to reach some common ground.
This post is on fire! Not sure whether to say, "Your welcome" or "I'm sorry".
To the troll that implied I have some sort of nefarious intent of starting an in game market to fleece stupid players, "Meet me in Potrini, I got some credits I'll give you for free. Right after I collect the illiterate bounty you have for not reading a damn thing."
E-bay has come up a lot. How does allowing player to player trades accommodate a bad (or seemingly evil) transaction on E-bay? Assuming it does, can't FD just request from e-bay to block sales relating to Elite (the whole copyrighted content thing should come into play no)? I apologize if I seem naive, I don't frequent e-bay very often.
Account Hacking. Again, not sure how it fits into the whole player to player trade thing. Could you please elaborate? Also, has this and won't this always be a problem for any game regardless of what you add or don't add into a game? In fact, I hear this quite often no matter what game I am playing.
Fear, is and always will be a factor for the masses. We must face our fears. We will permit them to pass over us and through us. When they have gone past, we will turn the inner eye to see their path. Where our fears have gone, there will be nothing. Only we will remain.
Example - I spend the next 3 days grinding and I manage to sock away 10 million credits, then I see some random dude in a space station with a sign that reads, "Lost in space. Ninjas kidnapped my companion bot and I need 5 million credits to learn kung-fu." Shouldn't it be my prerogative if I want to give it to him or not? Also, I have a GF that plays with me sometimes, she can’t play with me as often as I play. It would be really nifty if I could just give her one and we can go play rather than me not playing for several hours (or even days) while I wait for her to level. And finally, I have a slightly disabled cousin, he doesn't have any arms (it's okay, he's fine with it, he was born that way). Should I really have to wait for him to grind out a Vulture? Wouldn't it be a lot nicer just to give him one?
At this point I can only assume credit/gold sellers are the same thing. How does not allowing player to player credit trading make this any more or less viable? There are already trading methods in place for transferring credits from one player to another. A credit/gold seller would only benefit from this addition slightly whereas the common player would benefit significantly and in many different ways. Who do we want to help the most? Gold/Credit Sellers or regular players? Not allowing this option really only hurts the regular players. Gold/Credit Sellers can still get their job done.
To the troll that implied I have some sort of nefarious intent of starting an in game market to fleece stupid players, "Meet me in Potrini, I got some credits I'll give you for free. Right after I collect the illiterate bounty you have for not reading a damn thing."
E-bay has come up a lot. How does allowing player to player trades accommodate a bad (or seemingly evil) transaction on E-bay? Assuming it does, can't FD just request from e-bay to block sales relating to Elite (the whole copyrighted content thing should come into play no)? I apologize if I seem naive, I don't frequent e-bay very often.
Account Hacking. Again, not sure how it fits into the whole player to player trade thing. Could you please elaborate? Also, has this and won't this always be a problem for any game regardless of what you add or don't add into a game? In fact, I hear this quite often no matter what game I am playing.
Fear, is and always will be a factor for the masses. We must face our fears. We will permit them to pass over us and through us. When they have gone past, we will turn the inner eye to see their path. Where our fears have gone, there will be nothing. Only we will remain.
Example - I spend the next 3 days grinding and I manage to sock away 10 million credits, then I see some random dude in a space station with a sign that reads, "Lost in space. Ninjas kidnapped my companion bot and I need 5 million credits to learn kung-fu." Shouldn't it be my prerogative if I want to give it to him or not? Also, I have a GF that plays with me sometimes, she can’t play with me as often as I play. It would be really nifty if I could just give her one and we can go play rather than me not playing for several hours (or even days) while I wait for her to level.
And finally, I have a slightly disabled cousin, he doesn't have any arms (it's okay, he's fine with it, he was born that way). Should I really have to wait for him to grind out a Vulture? Wouldn't it be a lot nicer just to give him one?At this point I can only assume credit/gold sellers are the same thing. How does not allowing player to player credit trading make this any more or less viable? There are already trading methods in place for transferring credits from one player to another. A credit/gold seller would only benefit from this addition slightly whereas the common player would benefit significantly and in many different ways. Who do we want to help the most? Gold/Credit Sellers or regular players? Not allowing this option really only hurts the regular players. Gold/Credit Sellers can still get their job done.
This post is on fire! Not sure whether to say, "Your welcome" or "I'm sorry".
To the troll that implied I have some sort of nefarious intent of starting an in game market to fleece stupid players, "Meet me in Potrini, I got some credits I'll give you for free. Right after I collect the illiterate bounty you have for not reading a damn thing."
E-bay has come up a lot. How does allowing player to player trades accommodate a bad (or seemingly evil) transaction on E-bay? Assuming it does, can't FD just request from e-bay to block sales relating to Elite (the whole copyrighted content thing should come into play no)? I apologize if I seem naive, I don't frequent e-bay very often.
Account Hacking. Again, not sure how it fits into the whole player to player trade thing. Could you please elaborate? Also, has this and won't this always be a problem for any game regardless of what you add or don't add into a game? In fact, I hear this quite often no matter what game I am playing.
Fear, is and always will be a factor for the masses. We must face our fears. We will permit them to pass over us and through us. When they have gone past, we will turn the inner eye to see their path. Where our fears have gone, there will be nothing. Only we will remain.
Example - I spend the next 3 days grinding and I manage to sock away 10 million credits, then I see some random dude in a space station with a sign that reads, "Lost in space. Ninjas kidnapped my companion bot and I need 5 million credits to learn kung-fu." Shouldn't it be my prerogative if I want to give it to him or not? Also, I have a GF that plays with me sometimes, she can’t play with me as often as I play. It would be really nifty if I could just give her one and we can go play rather than me not playing for several hours (or even days) while I wait for her to level.
At this point I can only assume credit/gold sellers are the same thing. How does not allowing player to player credit trading make this any more or less viable? There are already trading methods in place for transferring credits from one player to another. A credit/gold seller would only benefit from this addition slightly whereas the common player would benefit significantly and in many different ways. Who do we want to help the most? Gold/Credit Sellers or regular players? Not allowing this option really only hurts the regular players. Gold/Credit Sellers can still get their job done.
Account hacking - people hack your account to strip all your credits and assets to give to another, you log in and are presented with 1000 credits and a freewinder instead of a Cutter and a billion credits
All because player to player transfers
Fear? <Redacted> are you on about? Cut out the gear
3 days grinding for 10 million -think you are doing it all wrong, thats 2hrs tops!
No to any credit gifting, guild banks etc - if you want the big ships/big modules and so on work for it............that is the point of the game
The idea with the bounty is that it is limited. Like 3 realtime play hours for B (the bad guy). He has to be visible on the map and visible as hunted. Players can hunt him down and collect the bounty. A bounty can only be set on his head after he killed e.g. A, by ... A. That's how you can prevent to just randomly have people setting bounties on each other heads.
This gameplay feature would not "harm" the NPC-based gameplay but would create a lot of fun. What if I could get 2, 3 or 4 Mio. credits by hunting a real player? Great. And player actions, like killing another player or a noob at the starting point would finally have a consequence. A lot of people are moaning that they get killed, especially (rich) traders. What if the trader could set a Bounty on his killer, 5 Mio. Credits e.g. and the killer is visible for everyone in the map, his location. He can be hunted now for e.g. 3 ("real") hours of open play, everytime he is online. That would bring a lot of fun to everything and "killers" finally would have take into consideration that their actions have consequences. Double win: More fun, more consequences. This is for me emergent gameplay.
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I see, so since you can't fathom a argument or string together a half bothered idea you go to a personal level, because?
In any regard, I can shed some light on some things for you, my imaginative world if you want. Since I in my mind made a few grand a year in that very business by juggling and playing the Auctionhouse for a few hours a day, it was fun and provided me with gold and money that my imaginary world could think off.
The company I sold to, today, I am sure do use shady stuff too, and when you consider a 0.5% to 1% yield is considered a good haul on accounts, is it really "not worth it?" these people, mind you mostly asian, usually run very decent profits, and the bigger companies that have now existed for 15+ years, are very profitable, most businesses don't even tend to live 15 years, so still not profitable ?
Now the games they target are ranging from small, to huge, small being stuff like Archage and guild wars 1. where player bases might be small. I have no clue, but imagine it being around 10 000 to 100 000, I would assume. 0.5% to 1% would still be 100's up to 1000's of accounts, buying gold, services or being compromised for phishing selling and other services.
Imagine bigger games, like WoW, FFXIV, or EvE. Suddenly the 0,5% and 1% now represents tens of thousands.
Then consider the range of pricing is on average about 25$ up to around 160$, so say the average spent is 50$. Suddenly you have a fairly hefty profit, and in a asian country where 50$ could represent a whole weeks salary, its suddenly a massive profit.
Do these businesses ruin players games, yes, both directly and indirectly, in WoW, no one really does progression anymore, a new expansion or a new char, you are max lvl within a day or two, getting from 90 to 100 in WoW without using a instant boost takes you about 1 hour. Blizzard continously try to fight them, now you can buy tokens, cleverly masked as "subscription tokens" that you can instead sell on the auction house for X amount of gold, and that price is quite fair to the gold seller sites, depending on regions.
So back to ED's current market, which I took myself the liberty to look for, and it relys on trusting one person to not scam you, and it is a very tiny market currently so it does not affect many people at all, and these exploits have been swung hard at, just 1-2 weeks ago a lot of these glitchers had their cash wiped. Not to mention it is seemingly now more towards "legal bits" of selling whole accounts instead.
Opening the "imaginative" door I am talking about makes a business stand behind, and the money earned ingame, is earned through "legal" ways, IE simply by playing the game, and not using bots, "But taht is totally not profitable yarp yarp " i hear you say, well no it is not, but in the long run, it is. Most companies use both. isn't that quite the shocker huh. So you got a lot of stuff making credits a legal way, meaning FD can't instantly slam the hammer at them. Large sums are them filtered around, standard practice to quite litteraly make stuff harder to trace, then when a buyer places a order, the company will usually and very often call to verify the buyer, and inform them about the order and send it onwards, then you have a lot of them sending incremental amounts of cash to the delivery account who trades and interferes with the buyer, the trader account is then discarded straigth away once all the smaller amounts have been sent way, well under the radar of "whapam a 1 billion credit trade!" and well away from the the real legally made mission money.
Mods can remove that bit if they want as it in simple moves explains the exacty route a gold seller transaction will work between a buyer and a serious gold seller company.
I don't want the above to happen to ED, as I thorougly love being in the game and theres no one spamming you, little risk of getting screwed over by people and those who do deal with it are actually being dealt with, and they are few as it is not a "house warm" thing. kappa.
But since you couldnt I'll air some ideas, since you managed to not read the part where I say its agreeable that everyone would like this, but opening the "imagination world" that seems to exist only in my head ( I can't and wont post links to pages as its against all sorts of rules ) I can't tell you much more than to open your eyes, and stop trolling about stuff you don't have a feintest clue about.
One way could be to limit what can be traded, and how it can be traded.
As an example to that, it seems most people would like to be able to trade because of X reason, and often related to RP and immersion kind of stuff. So limit the amount of tonnes one could trade to a weekly\monthly limit of 1000-2000 Tonnes, A bigshot trader will then lose out not being able to trade enough, and a lowshot beginner wont have a ship to even get near that limit. and at the end of the day, it would not be enough for someone helping a friend jump into a top notch ship. it would encourage people to perhaps have some form of races, and if someone wants to somehow conjure 1000 tonnes of ancient artifacts, painite or other rare goods I don't know.
It would make the game remain unappealing for any form of seller wanting to make profits as then the low % yield would have to be a lot higher, and the worlk load would be trendous to get around the limit in order to supply even a small amount of buyers.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
That sounds a lot like the Pilot's Federation Bounties proposal - a bounty can only be set (within limits) by the player attacked / destroyed by another player. I'd have no problem with that.
Where I would be less comfortable is if bounties could be levied on other players for no in-game whatsoever.
No, of course. We're not in Little Italy, Scarface is not around. ;-) A bounty should only be put on someones head for a reason. And not unlimited. I see that FD wants to keep some aspects under control, like gold diggers etc. But it's not very complicated to give us "multiplayer driven" players more freedom and incentives to interact. I'm an online gamer and I like real player interaction. But unfortunately, that's what I miss most in Elite. The game itself is great. But when online gameing came up like 10 or whatever years ago, I totally started to love it. And I can hardly play any games anymore that are NPC-based. It's something totally different to play against a real player or an NPC. The NPC-based part just doesn't rock (for me, and a lot of others).
And this bounty thing is just one of many that I can think of. There are 2 different kind of Elite players as I can see. The ones who are totally fine with NPC-based gameplay and they like it and the ones like me, multiplayer driven. The multiplayer part is not curved out yet. FD is not that experienced in multiplayer titels. So, I just try to help to keep that player base happy. But to be honest, for me or imho, the multiplayer part is the one that can make Elite an Elite game. If FD wants to reach season 10, they have to focus on that (as well).
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