Discussion thread on ingame resets and stat wipes during Betas and beyond

[Adept]

It seems those who want to cheat can do so quite easily. It's... very annoying but a problem of limited scope in the alpha. When Premium Beta starts the player/tester numbers will go up a lot.

To actually get a good feel for, and a proper test of the trading things should be fair and the hackers either detected and banned, or preferably just stopped from doing it.

Shouldn't all the money and trade data be kept on the server?

 

[steevaavoo]

It seems those who want to cheat can do so quite easily. It's... very annoying but a problem of limited scope in the alpha. When Premium Beta starts the player/tester numbers will go up a lot.

To actually get a good feel for, and a proper test of the trading things should be fair and the hackers either detected and banned, or preferably just stopped from doing it.

Shouldn't all the money and trade data be kept on the server?

Agreed, certainly with the data location - though I wouldn't necessarily ban people who are hacking at this stage, as it is apparently quite easily done (?) - I can't confirm it as I feel no temptation to do so - but the hacking is hopefully making the coding exploits stick out like a sore thumb to the devs.

In many ways I hope people continue to hack away at the code at this time, and during beta, and thereby continue to highlight loopholes and exploits, so that they can also be fixed.

Someone's always going to find a way to do it, and I heartily agree that bans of a sort should be in place once Beta is over and Gamma begins, because presumably by that time, the easy/medium exploits should be gone, and the only hacks taking place will be performed by people who just can't be bothered to play the game fairly - at which point, I'd say "thanks for pointing that out, we'll fix it asap, and in the meantime, enjoy starting again with a wiped save."

Plus, we're all going to go back to square one at - and very likely between - each stage anyway.

Just my opinion though - I humbly realise I have no idea how I might handle this if the job was mine!

 

[Stachel]

The roughness (not badness) of the Alpha 4 suggests to me that they are way behind schedule and just trying to get the game feature complete before re-treading all the areas that need polish/attention.

No doubt securing the game is something that comes toward the end of the process - once they have all the feedback from extended testing/hacking.

I'm sure they aren't oblivious to how easy it is to hack the client right now.

FWIW I am also concerned the game will never be 'secure' due to the server model employed. I can't decide if that was naive or just dumb. Surely research was done in to the issue prior to settling on a design? Surely they listened to the warnings last year? Hopefully so.

 

[Adept]

I was just hoping that by the time trading actually arrives that loophole would have been closed

 

[steevaavoo]

I was just hoping that by the time trading actually arrives that loophole would have been closed

Fair point indeed.

 

[Stachel]

Fair point indeed.

Its likely the case that its a massive issue that can't just be fixed by tweaking a few lines of code. As I said above, you need a lot of time and perspective to re-think and re-write stuff and they probably don't have the time right now. A hack to close a loophole isn't solving the real problem(s).

 

[Robert Maynard]

Its likely the case that its a massive issue that can't just be fixed by tweaking a few lines of code. As I said above, you need a lot of time and perspective to re-think and re-write stuff and they probably don't have the time right now. A hack to close a loophole isn't solving the real problem(s).

Obfuscation of stored data in terms of representation and location should not take too many lines of code - instead of referencing a variable, call a function that calculates that value from data in a number of different areas. When setting the value, at the same time change other data to make it more difficult to zero in on the locations of interest.

 

[Stachel]

Obfuscation of stored data in terms of representation and location should not take too many lines of code - instead of referencing a variable, call a function that calculates that value from data in a number of different areas. When setting the value, at the same time change other data to make it more difficult to zero in on the locations of interest.

Sounds good. From their POV though, that could be a month of work: define requirements, initiate, development; integrate and test; integrate and test; integrate and test; review; integrate and test; redefine requirements; next iteration; adjust and track; review etc.

 

[Yaffle]

I'd like it if the game could detect such cheaters but did not let the perp know but waited, say, a few hours and then have the newly hacked account have a few issues such as one or more of the following:

1) Suspected of Money Laundering and have all their accounts and lines of credit frozen on every commander slot, then credit balance reduced to opening 100 (or lower if the position before cheating)
2) Placed into IronMan (if not there already) ("Hmm, shot up, I'll just respawn, wait, what?")
3) Placed into solo offline/online quietly ("where is everybody... hello...?")
4) Hacked ship breaks down 9/10 flights, and has no resale value due to "unreliability".
5) No insurance. Ever. For any commander on that account.
6) 50% of all bounties obtained are subject to a 100% processing fee.

Putting a bounty on them won't work as people will hack to get a bounty, then get shot up by a mate.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'd like it if the game could detect such cheaters but did not let the perp know but waited, say, a few hours and then have the newly hacked account have a few issues such as one or more of the following:
<snip>
Putting a bounty on them won't work as people will hack to get a bounty, then get shot up by a mate.

If a number of checksums were used covering all of the relevant user related data - those same checksums shared between instanced clients and the server - client side hacking could be detected more easily.

I like the idea of the individual not being immediately made aware of detection - the longer the better in terms of how long it would take them to try to perfect their hack.

Bounties don't really work between friends - the bountied needs to pay it. I do like the idea of a percentage for the in-game agency handling bounties.

Reducing / zeroing bounties would be more of an issue, as would infinite hull strength, instantly replenishing shields, infinite missiles, Commander name blanking / impersonation (I've seen blanking in 3.4), etc., etc..

 

[irongut]

It seems those who want to cheat can do so quite easily. It's... very annoying but a problem of limited scope in the alpha. When Premium Beta starts the player/tester numbers will go up a lot.

To actually get a good feel for, and a proper test of the trading things should be fair and the hackers either detected and banned, or preferably just stopped from doing it.

Shouldn't all the money and trade data be kept on the server?

It is usual to have a wipe between all phases of testing so Alpha to Beta to Gamma should all have wipes. Often wipes will even happen within a phase.

Hackers should definitely not be banned at this point, well not if they send the details of what they did to Frontier anyway. Much better to spot and fix cheats and exploits now than after the game goes live.

Yes data like money, trade data, etc should be kept on the server where it can not be manipulated by an unscrupulous person with a hex editor. Keeping anything like that on the client is asking for trouble in a multiplayer game.

 

[Iain M Norman]

Relax, there's almost certainly fixes already coded that didn't make it into the Alpha 4.0 cut. Don't forget this build will have probably been settled on some time ago. Not yesterday.

 

[Adept]

Relax, there's almost certainly fixes already coded that didn't make it into the Alpha 4.0 cut.

Hence the wish that there is a wipe before PB launches and a rework on how this data is handled. I live in hope.

 

[Caribou]

Hence the wish that there is a wipe before PB launches and a rework on how this data is handled. I live in hope.

There will be other ways to cheat by then.... have a nice day now....

 

[jabokai]

Hence the wish that there is a wipe before PB launches and a rework on how this data is handled. I live in hope.

Who cares what anyone has, or what there stats are before the FINAL wipe? Until then it's all meaningless (in the sense of stats/ships/money, obviously the testing matters). Chill.

 

[Adept]

Of course the real test is having truly robust and reliable data security at launch, but I disagree completely with you jabockai if you are saying that until then anything goes.

For one, it makes a mockery of and distorts the beta tuning of the economic simulation, and additionally they need to be using the beta to test and test again the methods they are going to use to stop and catch cheaters after launch.

There will be other ways to cheat by then.... have a nice day now....

Whatever do you mean?

 

[Malicar]

If the cheaters and hackers are not dealt with, with an iron first then they will continue to make more cheats and more hacks and eventually they will be sold on the black market. Usually the hackers are one step ahead of the devs and unless you do something from the start it only allows them to refine their cheats and hacks. To some I'm sure alpha was considered an investment so that they could refine their craft right until the end of beta.

There is maybe .01% of all the hackers that will report the flaw they are exploiting or explain how they did it. Most of them are in it for the ego and money they will make when they sell said hack on their website after the game launches. Cheating is now a billion dollar industry and if you think they are all here to _help_ with the game then you are sadly mistaken.

 

[Luniticisi]

Surely the cheats need to be found early, to stop them leaking into the final game .. They have to be caught early.

The more people try to cheat the system the more aware FD are of the loopholes that stand at the moment.

If you know how to cheat the game, please do... and send FD a ticket showing Exactly how you did it ..

I do not care about people cheating in the Beta's if it help's the outcome of the final game ... surely that is what we are doing here .. testing the game before general release ... I certainly am not worried about what other people are getting up to, even if they are gaining an upper hand over me during the Beta.

I am going to try to break this game apart, cheat .. shoot things I am not supposed to ... try to hyperspace into things ... everything that I think people shouldn't be able to do in the final release ... as like I said .. that is what we are doing here ... Testing.

(Snip)
There is maybe .01% of all the hackers that will report the flaw they are exploiting or explain how they did it. Most of them are in it for the ego and money they will make when they sell said hack on their website after the game launches. Cheating is now a billion dollar industry and if you think they are all here to _help_ with the game then you are sadly mistaken.

I say how many people have paid £200+ to be able to cheat at Elite: Dangerous ? - a game that they have no idea will be successful..?

 

[Malicar]

I say how many people have paid £200+ to be able to cheat at Elite: Dangerous ? - a game that they have no idea will be successful..?

Like I said cheating is a billion dollar a year industry now. From modded motherboards to USB dongles to hacked.exe files and modded controllers. If there is a way then they will sell it. That 200 dollar investment can balloon into huge gross revenue once those hacks propagate. It can also end up costing the developer huge amounts of money trying to protect their assets. So a good foundation and policy towards this kind of stuff is needed from the start.

The quicker you lock it down the better. Again we can only hope to mitigate it before launch. With peer to peer games that don't keep vital information behind a server client interface not much can be done to protect the players. Even then the hackers can still find ways to cheat and exploit the system. FD barely wants to moderate a chat room let alone police cheaters. It requires manpower and resources to keep it in check. Hell people are speed hacking in ESO. That hack been around for how long? So yeah you have all the known and old crap that has plagued us for years but now you also have a much more advanced group of people that are pumping out firmware and all kinds of stuff to bypass security and anti cheat software.

It might seem like I'm ranting but trust me this issue is more wide spread then most publishers and or developers want you to know. Look at GTA V. Some might think it uses some complex server infostructure etc. It doesn't. It's a peer to peer game with absolutely no way to stop cheaters. The only real weapon we have today is video. In the past we could not record these guys without jumping through flaming hoops. Now we can hit a button and share that video with everyone. Of course once that happens it's again up to the dev or publisher to drop the ban hammer and most of the time they don't because when they do they always have innocent casualties with their so called detection algo's and log parsing.

 

[Caribou]

Whatever do you mean?

...if you think they are all here to _help_ with the game then you are sadly mistaken.

That's one interpretation, but basically it's a never ending war - once one loophole is found and plugged another will take it's place...

Surely the cheats need to be found early, to stop them leaking into the final game .. They have to be caught early.

The more people try to cheat the system the more aware FD are of the loopholes that stand at the moment.

I say how many people have paid £200+ to be able to cheat at Elite: Dangerous ? - a game that they have no idea will be successful..?

I agree totally (with reporting) , but W.R.T. that last point... Or a group of 10 people £20 each ? They can't access it themselves at the same time but they can look at what network traffic is sent (Trying replays etc...) , whats in memory and what changes when they buy or sell and even change textures and stuff to make ships visible when in stealth (SO many things)

If they find something then it may be useful in the future "if" the game is successful and then it may pay them back for their investment possibly? Who knows....