Powerplay Disincentivizing the 5th Column in PP

[JessieColt]

Hello Commander Martin Schou!

I like the concept of limiting preparation based on rating.

It makes rating more important, which is always a good thing in my book, as well as potentially making it harder for saboteurs (they'd actually have to do some good by fortifying and undermining to increase their rating to be able to hurt the power).

I'm also attracted to the concept that preparation becomes finite; another incentive to work together if you really want the power to do well.

I do have a concern though.

Such a system would be particularly painful to powers with small supporter bases with regards to preparation competition, which tend to be smaller powers, though this isn't always the case.

If a system was desired by two powers, one with lots of supporters and one with few, this system would essentially limit the effectiveness of "putting the time in" which is currently available to small user base powers. The large user base power could offset this limit by simply sending more folk to prepare.

It's somewhat of a corner case, but it would be interesting to hear what you folk think on this issue.

One way of addressing this issue is with a Hard Cap for Materials.


Currently anyone who has the funds, and the cargo space can fast track materials to boost a system.

While not wanting to eliminate this ability, it should be hard capped on a 24 hour cycle.

Rank 1 = 100
Rank 2 = 200
Rank 3 = 300
Rank 4 = 400
Rank 5 = 500

(Or some other set number. Just using the above numbers for example purposes)

Every 24 hours, a player can pick up as many Materials as their Rank will allow with 1 Fast Track ability to double the number.

Using the above example numbers, this would allow a player at Rank 5 to truck a maximum of 1000 tons of materials in any 24 hour period. 500 for their allocation, and 500 for the 1 shot Fast Track per 24 hours.

This would have a 2 fold benefit for powers.

1. Casual Players can pick up as much tonnage as their rank allows and that they can carry, all at once, instead of having to wait 30 minutes to pick up more, then wait another 30 to pick up more. Those who have limited hours to play can maximize their game time.

2. Big Spenders would be capped, preventing them from stacking a bad system onto the Preparation List

Players who have large cargo ships with millions of credits would no longer be able to buy 800+ tons of cargo every 30 minutes to truck to a bad system, stacking the deck in favor of that system. They would be caped at a maximum of XXX tons per 24 hours.

With a Materials Cap it would be easier for the faction players to counter a bad Prep system and push it down on the list.

 

[Phil^]

I like the concept of limiting preparation based on rating.

It makes rating more important, which is always a good thing in my book, as well as potentially making it harder for saboteurs (they'd actually have to do some good by fortifying and undermining to increase their rating to be able to hurt the power).

Wouldn't this be vulnerable to high-level defectors from another power? They'd carry across part of their merits from what I understand - and if they were for example L5 in power A, they could defect to power B and still have enough merits to be L4 comfortably. No good work required - they could start to undermine power B without helping them since all of their merit earning was done in power A.

 

[FleetAdmiralJ]

Wouldn't this be vulnerable to high-level defectors from another power? They'd carry across part of their merits from what I understand - and if they were for example L5 in power A, they could defect to power B and still have enough merits to be L4 comfortably. No good work required - they could start to undermine power B without helping them since all of their merit earning was done in power A.

Sure, but if they wanted to prep a bad system, one defector could be countered by one legit member of the power. They can no longer spend hours upon hours and hundreds of millions of dollars spamming merits at a bad system. Basically the only way to counter someone (or people) doing that is people who support the power doing the same thing times however many preparation slots there are that week, and they may not have the time or money to do it, to say nothing about taking away from other tasks such as fortification.

You would need quite a few defectors to be able to overrun a power's legit members, and I think much like the sniping, if you have the coordination to pull that off then you probably deserve winning. As it is a wing of well-funded anaconda pilots can basically overrun a preparation board.

 

[Zenow]

I think a large part of this '5th column' is actually not 5th column at all, but just benign mistakes- like mine. I started in Power Play last week, but didn't do much (or any) research on what to do. The in-game info is very, very limited, so it didn't even occur to me there could be 'bad systems' on the preparation list or that you could actually fortify the 'wrong system'. It dawned on me, after a while, of course, but I imagine many new players just select the option to fortify or prepare, and then select the system that is closest. Without reading anything - and still think they are doing good.

I think you can remove the benign 5th column by actually automatically sorting the list for the players, based on the systems most valuable to fortify/prepare. Even the bad system that is pushed in by a real 5th column, will get placed at the bottom, no extra player restriction needed - you just need to inform players of what is good behaviour and let them choose.

Of course, that leaves the real 5th column, intentionally trying to wreck the power. First - part of that is gameplay, so it should remain possible. But it can be made more difficult, by adding some level of restriction:
- let the top level powerplayers set restriction variables for system nominations: e.g. only systems with a minimal income/cost of X can be prepped. That adds power for the most loyal players (or the best and most patient of the 5th column!), so it is reputation-based, and it adds a level of danger as well: if the minimum requirements are too high - the preparation systems may be too far away or can't even be found. Make them too low, and you get the 5th column problem.

I don't know if what I mention is possible at all, my understanding of powerplay is still minimal..

 

[Martin Schou]

I think a large part of this '5th column' is actually not 5th column at all, but just benign mistakes- like mine.

The main difference between sabotage and ignorance is how it's performed. Take Wolf 412 the first time around as an example. The amount of merits that were pushed into Wolf 412 made it very clear that this wasn't ignorance. People were spending hundreds of millions of credits on a system that was clearly labelled as a negative income system, and they were doing it in such short time periods that there's simply no way that this was either ignorance or regular grinders. Add to that that we could actively track merits arriving by the Anaconda load, and it became obvious that it was being done by one person and not an opportunistic group of merit grinders.

Now - if there were ways of countering prep sabotage, this wouldn't be such a big deal, but that's not the case at the moment. That means it becomes the equivalent of discovering that a 6A Interdictor can instantly pull people out of supercruise regardless of the distances involved, and then using it to just grief people by pulling them out and running away, except you're now doing it on a scale of hundreds if not thousands of players at once. Currently the only way to counter prep sabotage is by having people defect to another power and using them to engage in a counter prep war, and then you just end up with two groups of griefers.

Changing how preparations work won't stop powers from preparing bad systems - if enough ignorant players push bad systems, they will end up on the prep list, and that's perfectly acceptable to me. And to be honest, I don't think it should be easy to ditch bad systems either. Powerplay isn't about actual income - it's about political favours and political support. Just because a politician tries to distance themselves from an unwanted supporter (suppose the KKK decided to endorse a candidate for example) doesn't mean that they can just do so at the snap of a finger. All powers have bad systems - that's just how it works. Allowing them to easily ditch bad systems would make the big powers even more powerful than they already are.

 

[VerneAsimov]

I wanted to highlight how stupidly OP combat expansion ethos are. First, let's start with factions who have very little active support. This is all current information as of about one hour before the next cycle.

Antal
1. Miki - 88k

Patreus
1. LTT 8260 - 90k
2. HIP 108598 - 52k

Archon
1. HIP 106072 - 103k
2. Wolf 412 - 5k (guess they didn't want this one)

Now the higher activity powers with combat expansion.

Hudson
1. Bhotho - 506k (5004%)(u wot)
2. Nurundere - 168k

And now for the kicker, the holy grail of expansion numbers (same bonuses + much higher active player base)

ALD
1. Af Leporis - 1,859,224 (20,939%)

The highest numbers for Mahon is 26k (505%), Winters 8.6k, and no one else is expanding this turn.

So how do they get a bonus? I said it earlier but I got my merit/kill incorrect. You get 10/kill but it takes minutes to collect it. As well, you can run in a wing, amassing 40 merits to the system in minutes. I got an average two minutes/kill so in a wing that's app. 1200 merits per hour whereas four people running merits by sitting in a dock would get 400 maximum/hr maximum.

Second benefit: not weighed down by merits.
Third benefit: no real limit to how much you can get. "Trade" merits would max out at 540 per load at most.

However, expansion opposition has the same benefits. The real downside of this is that non-combat powers have to work quite a bit harder to expand. As well, if your opposition power happened to be the same faction type (Fed/Empire), you are royally screwed. Which is the problem Aisling had with the Kwatsu area.

TL;DR Combat expansionists have it a lot easier.

 

[_Flin_]

I think a good idea is to have a mechanic similar to expansion / opposition, only to lose a system.
Retreat / Strengthening.

This way powers could lose systems if they really want to and define their own areas.

 

[Saool]

Hmm I 'think' I class as a Merit Grinder MkII, however I am fully aware of what I am doing. I am free loading in ALD to take advantage of the silly easy mode bonuses whilst waiting a few days each cycle before going to undermine and already undermined system to maintain my rank. So doing nothing to help whilst filling my pockets with the spoils of a broken system.

And they made me an Earl today for my non-contribution.

 

[Brocktar]

Here is a silly idea,

What about removing ALL rewards from PP? No weekly money, all modules are available to all players, and no faction specific bonuses.

Sure the PP activity would massively decrease as there would be literally no reason to grind merits.
What you would be left with are the people who want an interesting PVP/roleplaying experience.

 

[Carradin]

I wanted to highlight how stupidly OP combat expansion ethos are. First, let's start with factions who have very little active support. This is all current information as of about one hour before the next cycle.

*snip*

TL;DR Combat expansionists have it a lot easier.

I feel like only one change is really needed to fix the whole discrepancy between combat and non-combat expansions. It's simple, really: Make the opposition method the same as the expansion method. If someone is expanding by shooting stuff, oppose them by shooting stuff. If someone is expanding by dropping loads of documents, oppose them by dropping loads of documents. The problem comes when dropping loads of documents to expand can be opposed by shooting stuff for 10-40 merits/kill.

And it makes sense, too. If a system is being pumped full of propaganda, going on a killing spree there would only help the people dropping off all the propaganda. After all, if they're trying to paint everyone but themselves as the villains, and you're the one killing people, you are just proving their point. To stop such an expansion, you'd need to convince the people of the system that they'd be better off alone... not by shooting them, but by getting in some propaganda of your own.

 

[Allicus]

It seems that a lot of people are trying to come up with fancy ways of trying to counter the 5th column problem when all you would need to do is make parts or all of powerplay only effected in Open play. Still allows people to mess around with the powers and give them systems they don't want, but they run the risk of being hunted down. People hiding away in solo is what is causing Powerplay problems.

 

[GNThrone]

TL;DR Combat expansionists have it a lot easier.

Financial expansions used to be easier now it's the other way around. There isn't a semblance of balance at the moment. I do hope they balance this soon. The more they put it off, the more the outrageous effects affect everyone.

A bunch of stuff in powerplay is time-sensitive. FD needs to give powerplay it's own focused dev team so fixes don't suddenly stop coming when they're working on something new which will be occurring frequently.

 

[Phil^]

It seems that a lot of people are trying to come up with fancy ways of trying to counter the 5th column problem when all you would need to do is make parts or all of powerplay only effected in Open play. Still allows people to mess around with the powers and give them systems they don't want, but they run the risk of being hunted down. People hiding away in solo is what is causing Powerplay problems.

I'd argue that one of the factors which pushes people to solo is the behaviour of other players in open - isnt it worth tackling the root causes rather than the symptoms?

Personally, I pick solo mode over open (and I've been on a trip to Sag A for the last month or so!) because a) I don't have any friends who play ED really, but primarily b) because the players I've encountered in solo are abusive idiots, for whom I would rather not have my enjoyment of the game spoilt for just to pander to their immature whims.

Can you justify why I should have to put up with them at all - and have my game experience degraded, should I turn my hand to powerplay?

Regardless, if solo is closed down as a way of interacting with powerplay, private groups would also need to be closed as well otherwise thats where everyone currently in solo may just shift to instead.

The instancing would also have to be improved as well, I would imagine for open mode.

 

[Ben Ryder]

What about another type of 5th columnist. Groups of players within a power who consider their actions to be of greater value than all other players in the group and carry them out in secret. Swapping sides to oppose what they see as bad preparations etc?

 

[CMDRApex]

Currently, the power play interface for all control systems always shows the fortification option at the top, even after fortifications are complete. A simple change to the UI that would not have any effect on the game mechanics, would be to drop fortification to the bottom of the list once it reaches 100%. This would help to communicate - to those that are not following the numbers - when it is time to move on to another system.

Additionally, the top activity (once fortification is complete) could be chosen based on the control system's relative proximity to expansion and preparation targets, though that might too complex.

Neither would be possible unless the currently poor caching of power play state is improved.

 

[Arkadi]

Hi all. I just got to read this thread. I already have posted different similar ideas on other locations of this great forum. Since I really like power play and I agree to many ideas that were posted here, I just want to sum up what I am waiting for, when FD gets the ressources to enhance powerplay. Maybe after launch of Horizons, witch I am also eagerly awaiting.
I know the OP is about 5th columns - forgive me if I devert and mulitquote without real purpose. But I feel the dire need to "like" and "+1" the following. Rest assured I wont make a habit of it. Also reps were given

I don't agree with combat being the way to go for everything.

Have painite, platinum and osmium count as fortification commodities is one example of getting another profession in the game. Give miners the ability to donate them in control system for only 1.000/piece like a normal merit and fortify the systems this way as well.

It also brings much more ships into the game instead of anacondas for hoarding preparations/expansions/fortification commodities and the fighter capable ships for combat expansion/undermining.

Or like I have already proposed, link the merit quotas with missions. This way all play styles can participate with fortification by doing what missions they prefer, assassination, smuggling, w.e.

YES YES SIR. Diversity is the way to go. Also in "my book".

One way of addressing this issue is with a Hard Cap for Materials.


Currently anyone who has the funds, and the cargo space can fast track materials to boost a system.

While not wanting to eliminate this ability, it should be hard capped on a 24 hour cycle.

Rank 1 = 100
Rank 2 = 200
Rank 3 = 300
Rank 4 = 400
Rank 5 = 500

(Or some other set number. Just using the above numbers for example purposes)

Every 24 hours, a player can pick up as many Materials as their Rank will allow with 1 Fast Track ability to double the number.

Using the above example numbers, this would allow a player at Rank 5 to truck a maximum of 1000 tons of materials in any 24 hour period. 500 for their allocation, and 500 for the 1 shot Fast Track per 24 hours.

This would have a 2 fold benefit for powers.

1. Casual Players can pick up as much tonnage as their rank allows and that they can carry, all at once, instead of having to wait 30 minutes to pick up more, then wait another 30 to pick up more. Those who have limited hours to play can maximize their game time.

2. Big Spenders would be capped, preventing them from stacking a bad system onto the Preparation List

Players who have large cargo ships with millions of credits would no longer be able to buy 800+ tons of cargo every 30 minutes to truck to a bad system, stacking the deck in favor of that system. They would be caped at a maximum of XXX tons per 24 hours.

With a Materials Cap it would be easier for the faction players to counter a bad Prep system and push it down on the list.

ALSO YES! The 30 minutes waiting for fortifications is the bore of the game. Please make free allocations for a longer time period hard capped, liek OP proposed.

It seems that a lot of people are trying to come up with fancy ways of trying to counter the 5th column problem when all you would need to do is make parts or all of powerplay only effected in Open play. Still allows people to mess around with the powers and give them systems they don't want, but they run the risk of being hunted down. People hiding away in solo is what is causing Powerplay problems.

Thats something I was thinking too - and I posted it in the Open/Solo discussion thread. But people here on the forums convinced me, that its not the best idea: becouse the freedom to switch from open to solo and back again any time is a big feature of this game witch enables a mindset of "friendly" gaming and willing mutual pvp only. I must give them defenders of free switching of modes a point there.

Currently, the power play interface for all control systems always shows the fortification option at the top, even after fortifications are complete. A simple change to the UI that would not have any effect on the game mechanics, would be to drop fortification to the bottom of the list once it reaches 100%. This would help to communicate - to those that are not following the numbers - when it is time to move on to another system.

Additionally, the top activity (once fortification is complete) could be chosen based on the control system's relative proximity to expansion and preparation targets, though that might too complex.

Neither would be possible unless the currently poor caching of power play state is improved.

Yes! The interface could need some love and I am also very shure it would have some impact on how people spend theire fortifications.

Hello Commanders!

I quite like the simplicity of the "increase merits for unfortified systems" concept, personally. Definitely worth chewing over.

Regarding 5th columnists: we are investigating ways of allowing powers to shed systems: the trick is to enforce enough safety measures to prevent the process itself being sabotaged!

In general, we like the idea of a power being able to change it's powerbase over time; we think it could create more opportunity for powers fighting over systems.

Thank you for that straw of hope. Please let some of those visions for powerplay come true. Powerplay needs some improvement in this direction!

Also there is a very interesting and clever post from Vitamin Arr witch seems to have not get broad reception. I hope OP doesnt mind when I link to his post: Vitamin Arrs DevsowerPlay suggestions

 

[Antoniius]

I'd personally like to offer the following potential solutions:
Reduce base salaries and institute a bonus to the base salary that scales based on the effectiveness of merits contributed. If a system being prepared or expanded provides negative CC to the power (before overheads), deduct credits from the base salary, and make it known. If a system is being fortified by commanders who submit merits after the trigger is reached, prompt them that their efforts are wasted and that they should choose another system. Do not add over-fortification merits to the weekly totals contributed by said commanders. I'm sure power leaders are not happy that their resources are being wasted. Let the mechanics reflect that.

+1 for the complete post about this mindless grinding that PP forces if you want to get/keep rank 5.

that said, io stated a lot of times around the forum that limiting the merits earned basing on their "uses" is not the way to go, simply because there are not enough merits for anyone, ending in helping people who farm first and probably the 5C people.
Just an example: you start getting your weekly merits but... oopppss.. all "logical" targets are already done! what do you do? Either look randomly for another place/way to get merits (aka 5C) or give up Powerplay.

The only EASY way to stop 5C is to prevent/fix/remove/correct (whatever) the negative CC control mechanics. Again an example: allow Powers to get rid immeditaley (with some sort or logical method) of unwanted systems.

 

[Martin Schou]

Again an example: allow Powers to get rid immeditaley (with some sort or logical method) of unwanted systems.

Or, to put it another way - let the game have no consequences to your actions. You might as well get rid of fines and bounties for breaking the law for individual players, as well as having negative reputation with factions and major powers.

Getting rid of a system should not be an easy thing to do, and I'm still waiting to see a convincing argument as to why it should be easy to get rid of a "bad" system.

The only thing keeping the big powers from gobbling up even more real estate than they already have, is these bad systems slowing down their progress. If all you had to do was snap your fingers to get rid of a bad system, then why would they bother trying to restrict their CC surplus? The only thing that making it easy to get rid of bad systems achieves, is making it even easier for ALD and Hudson to run roughshod over PowerPlay, as they can simply snap their fingers and get rid of a bad system while not having to worry about keeping their good systems.

 

[mtt9999 [Parabolus]]

Honestly, the simplest, easiest, and most immersive way to fix the problem: POWERPLAY MUST BE PLAYED IN OPEN MODE ONLY.

That way I can hunt down and kill any backstabbers...