Do you hate the Engineer change? Let the Beta burn!

[Arguendo]

First, you are allowed to give feedback. That doesn't make you a game designer.
Second, for the hundreds of players who complained about the changes there might be thousands who like them.

Whoosh!

They asked for feedback. They got feedback, and lots of it. They changed absolutely nothing. That's true for the Engineer section and the C&P section. If they didn't want to use players' feedback, they shouldn't have put up a special section in the forums for it!

FDev ain't all sunshine and roses, no matter how hard you try to make them out to be.

 

[Stealthie]

Trust me, that's most likely the first thing they will do in the Beta!

If they do, and grandfathered mod's end up getting nerfed as a result, they will certainly have earned my respect. [up]

 

[lokvette]

Come on children, nearly time for school.

lol funny that as Im 47 and sitting in a classroom and no im not the teacher.

 

[Vasea Azure]

No way, the changes sounds great - less RNG and it looks like I will be back playing again upgrading rest of my fleet. Thank you FD!

 

[zombieapocalypse]

lol funny that as Im 47 and sitting in a classroom and no im not the teacher.

Should we be calling the police?

 

[Valorin]

Basically, if you think the change to Engineers is horrible...take your god rolls into beta and prove to the devs that grandfathering them is a bad idea...show them how ugly the galaxy will be when these ships are the only ones out there.

I like the changes very much.

 

[Stealthie]

I wouldn't mind so much if collecting materials wasn't so incredibly dull and repetitive. Oh well, I guess we'll see for sure in the beta...

That's the thing everybody seems to be overlooking.

It's all very well sitting at an engineer and clicking 3 times to "level up" from tier 1 to tier 2 to show just how wonderfully straightforward it is but the real issue is how long it takes to go and collect the 20-odd mat's required for every bloody module that you plan to apply a G5 mod to.

On a related note, I think Sandro has grossly misjudged the community when he says "engineering should be a gradual process".
I doubt many people regularly engineer ships that way.
Sure, when you first start using engineers you just apply the mod's that you have the mat's for but then, as you collect more and more mat's, you will always go straight to G5.

How many veteran players will show up at an engineer's base with mat's for a G5 mod', do a bunch of rolls, fail to get anything decent and then think "I guess I'll just apply a G4 mod' instead" rather than going back out and looking for more G5 mat's?

It's probably not such an issue for new players, who might actually appreciate it, but it's a PITA for veteran players and, what's more, it'll be a PITA for all the new players once they become experienced too.

 

[Ziljan]

We don't really know how the current god roles will stack up against the incoming system. But today Sandro said that if the god rolls are too powerful, then they'll just scale up the G5 ceiling until the new ones are better.

Simple right?

Well not so fast. The old secondaries like long range railguns with -30% heat as a secondary roll will likely not be possible under the new system. So some of the existing god-rolls with massive off-axis secondaries are like having TWO god rolls on ONE module.

Not sure how they would address this disparity without creating a likely even more unpopular conversion system. And how would they even award new values without nerfing and buffing existing mods almost arbitrarily? Sounds like a logistical nightmare.

Honestly, I think I understand why they are grandfathering god rolls, because the alternatives are just too messy and likely to create more grief than having a two tiered system that is at least partially easily tweakable.

 

[Van R Flyheight]

We don't really know how the current god roles will stack up against the incoming system. But today Sandro said that if the god rolls are too powerful, then they'll just scale up the G5 ceiling until the new ones are better.

Simple right?

Well not so fast. The old secondaries like long range railguns with -30% heat as a secondary roll will likely not be possible under the new system. So some of the existing god-rolls with massive off-axis secondaries are like having TWO god rolls on ONE module.


Imo, grandfathering may be bad idea for just this reason. Perhaps a better way to go would be to have current god rolls converted to the new +/- G5 cap and remove the off axis secondaries like heat reduction on long range mods.

I don't think we really have much of a choice when it comes to grandfathering modules. I'm not protecting a load of god-rolled modules myself here, just stating a fact. You can't tell any player that you are taking away their toys that they earned legitimately under a recognised gameplay system just because the devs don't like it. I really miss the days before internet updates were a thing. Devs either got it right first time or the playerbase dealt with the product they were given. These days, everything you do is up for debate and every grind you put in can be reversed.

Edit: +rep though for your signature which I just noticed. I do enjoy a touch of witty feminism.

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

Well not so fast. The old secondaries like long range railguns with -30% heat as a secondary roll will likely not be possible under the new system. So some of the existing god-rolls with massive off-axis secondaries are like having TWO god rolls on ONE module. .

Well good, at least we will have some unique ships in the galaxy. A bit of Elite history living among us.

I have a 5 medium Railgun FGS that can fire pretty much continuously without overheating. Worked on it for ages cooling every module possible.

I fly the fighter and watch my NPC smash things with the Rails, like the hammer of the gods, it's insane.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If FD pried my god rolls from my cold dead fingers I'd be annoyed, but in the end unless its a clean start you will have legacy cruft always holding you back causing animosity.

Or, for a laugh, make all grandfathered god modules hot or illegal.

 

[Arguendo]

I don't think we really have much of a choice when it comes to grandfathering modules. I'm not protecting a load of god-rolled modules myself here, just stating a fact. You can't tell any player that you are taking away their toys that they earned legitimately under a recognised gameplay system just because the devs don't like it. I really miss the days before internet updates were a thing. Devs I've got it right first time or the playerbase dealt with the product they were given. These days, everything you do is up for debate and every grind you put in can be reversed.

It's not that uncommon for games to balance their weapons. You don't see Battlefield grandfathering guns because you already had it unlocked before the balance pass. FDev don't have to remove all modifications on the modules, just put them inline with the equivalent blueprint under the new system.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

Well good, at least we will have some unique ships in the galaxy. A bit of Elite history living among us.

I have a 5 medium Railgun FGS that can fire pretty much continuously without overheating. Worked on it for ages cooling every module possible.

I fly the fighter and watch my NPC smash things with the Rails, like the hammer of the gods, it's insane.

So you would stop others having the chance to gain the same? I'm glad you like your ship but to deny the possibility to others is just unfair.

 

[babelfisch]

FDev ain't all sunshine and roses, no matter how hard you try to make them out to be.

Not going to waste any more time on you.

 

[B1rdy]

You may wanna check that quote again. Fast forward to 58:30 where he outright states that if you have a current God Roll you will want to keep it. If you are below ~75% of a God Roll, you'll want to convert it to the new system.

I really hope they manage to create an even playground. Otherwise this redesign is a fail, because the secondaries will still be thing.

 

[Rubbernuke]

To be honest FD are going to be vilified whatever they do, making a change to a fundamental system late on is going to be painful.

It makes a case for enhanced beta testing over longer periods, but that horse has bolted.

 

[Van R Flyheight]

It's not that uncommon for games to balance their weapons. You don't see Battlefield grandfathering guns because you already had it unlocked before the balance pass. FDev don't have to remove all modifications on the modules, just put them inline with the equivalent blueprint under the new system.

Fair point but the difference there is that in Battlefield, switching gun is relatively simple. In MMORPGs this is a different beast. Anyone ever play the division, not the first time I've referenced this but it's best example I know of balances that kill playerbases overnight. You grind and grind for that perfect roll and then when you get it, it's nerfed. You can't just go to your loadout and pick a new one. You have to find another weapon, beg RNGesus for a good roll and then begin the modding process allover again. This kind of game requires far more input to your finished build so when that get's taken away, why would you continue playing.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I think the new engineering changes are good. Grandfathering super rolls, not so good...

Sandro said they tweaked it so it can go higher now than before so your god rolls may no longer be so godly...

jesus christ tho, if we are ALL going to be flying god rolled ships if we spend a few hrs in engineers i really hope the npcs get some more time to drink at the engineer well too.

perosnally if i am honest... i am quite confident i will like the new system

 

[Cmdr Ultra]

So you would stop others having the chance to gain the same? I'm glad you like your ship but to deny the possibility to others is just unfair.

So get rolling you have 5 weeks. And no I didn't say anything like that if you read it.

All people seem to want to do is to deny me my Ship. Not everyone has to have the same stuff.
I have played since day 1 and feel a sense of connection to my engineered ships. This is a Railgun FGS not exactly a top PVP ship.

My ship is unique - soon they will all be the same.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Oh boi. Information is power but too much information creates chaos. Add lack of deeper understanding, hasty jumping into conclusions and what we have? Discovery: new salt mine found.

Proposed changes maybe aren't the best ones. But whining how bad it is, how it will be more grindy, how you can't skip ranks, etc. is just... whining. That's why there's beta. The idea is implemented. The idea is being tested. If the idea plays right - it goes live. If the idea does not play right - it got changed.

You dislike the idea? I'll be blunt here:

Spoiler

. Go play beta. Test the idea. Give constructive criticism. Hope FDEV listen.

Because what you do here is just whining no one cares about.

To be fair, the new system is already decided upon, it is only the final tweaking beta will be about.
I think the current Engineers system is much better, but I'm too happy about the new planets to complain about it.