Do you hate the Engineer change? Let the Beta burn!

[Cmdr Ultra]

upsetting existing players is the right thing to do

Business 101 there. I'm a customer, a lifetime pass holder. Buyer of paint jobs and nameplates.
FD is not going to alienate (filthy Xenos) their biggest spenders by invalidating all the time they put into Engineering their ships.
They already said so, multiple times.

Bring on the Tech Broker. You won't even remember Railguns in a few months.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I said it before when thy brought up the idea, but the legacy modifications were a real bad idea. keeps people's Op modules wihtout others havign a chance to catch up. Simply scan for god modules beyond what the enw system allows and change those into a max new system possible counterpart.

i have to admit i am surprised they are kept.

For better or for worse (and i moan enough about that it is not for this thread) ED is an MMO.... and in MMOs - or any MP games really - devs do balance passes all the time on stuff considered to be OP.

in truth it has no effect on me. none of my rolls would be considered god like, and it is unliklely i will ever come up against and have to fight a god mod ship.... but it does surprise me... unless FD are confident they will all be obsolete anyway.

 

[Muetdhiver]

The Beta will be over before anyone has gathered everything needed to fully upgrade a larger ship from scratch.

And while they're wasting all their time on materials gathering, they won't be testing any of the new stuff.

I G5 an anaconda from scratch in two evenings, or 6h of play. So, yes, people will be able to do it ez-pz.

This changes are the Trump tax cuts of ED : massive time savings for the god rollers, knee to the balls to everyone else.

 

[Ashnak]

The Beta will be over before anyone has gathered everything needed to fully upgrade a larger ship from scratch.

And while they're wasting all their time on materials gathering, they won't be testing any of the new stuff.

You're one of the devs, at least?

- nobody knows yet how the beta will be set up and which materials in the beta will be needed for which modifications, it may be back to fish again for all it's worth (or fish may be at the root of all the material chains in the mat broker, although Iron and Carbon would do for that, too)
- fully upgrading a large ship from scratch might not be the focus or even a goal for this beta
- fully upgrading a large ship won't prove or show anything more than fully upgrading a single module (or, if you want to be really thorough, a single module of each type) would
- fully upgrading a large ship from scratch, while checking on all the new secondaries in various combinations, might (if I understood Sandro correctly: should) even break the timeframe of Beyond
- there's no description out yet what FD wants to test us in this beta

I don't want to stop you from going for a fully upgraded Cutter, but I will most likely start with geting a Chieftain, A-rate it, slap a couple of pacifiers on it, fill up the remaining slots with beam lasers, then make the round of the Engineers and see what I can do with the stuff I have in my storage. Shouldn't take more tha a week or so. And hope I don't run into any of the top end PvPers before I've done this. If I do, I intend to give as good an account as I am able. Otherwise, I'll tackle some RESes and work my way up from there.

Keep in mind: This is Beta. If I get bored from continously rapidly dying at the hands of experienced PvPers, I'll check whether the ATR guys are really that hot. After that, I'll probably have to do a CMDR reset and see how good I can start from scratch.

Oh, and any beta testing will be severly hampered by the new Buckyball race taking off on Saturday. Sorry guys, but you got to have priorities.

 

[JaskoMaughann]

*Looks at the new engineer system*
*Looks at the rapidly accumulating salt*

*Shrugs and goes back to enjoying the game*

 

[Stealthie]

Business 101 there. I'm a customer, a lifetime pass holder. Buyer of paint jobs and nameplates.

That's a nice idea.

The reality, however, is that they already have your money, and the more you've invested, the less chance there is that you'll pull the plug.

Meanwhile, there's a whole planet full of people, out there, who's money FDev haven't got and it's not as likely they'll get it if prospective buyers think they can't ever hope to obtain the same toys as existing players.

Guess which category a business is likely to be more interested in?

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Don't mean to be harsh to people who covet their existing god-rolls but when you bought the game you agreed to T&Cs which say things might get changed.
There's nothing to make new customers aware that they might be buying a game full of people who are flying fundamentally better ships.

In this case, upsetting existing players is the right thing to do, rather than leaving new players at an eternal disadvantage.

If engineered modeuls can get hot when the ship is used for ganking, than issue solved. Existing modules can be used PvE - if those are used for PvP, they may lose them permanently.

 

[JaskoMaughann]

If engineered modeuls can get hot when the ship is used for ganking, than issue solved. Existing modules can be used PvE - if those are used for PvP, they may lose them permanently.

Modules are marked as hot when the ship they're fitted to gets marked.

I like this C&P system more and more.
The murder hobo types will now have to deal with the time and non-credit based consequences as well as the inconvenience of being railroaded into anarchy systems.

Ruin your rep by seal clubbing? Gotta start your engineering rounds again.
Oh, you're notorious? Sucks to be an outlaw, huh? Welcome to hard mode, git gud.

 

[dreampage]

I better go and engineer some modules for my future Chieftain. I understand the concept behind the changes but the result will be that new ships will be unusable for a long time before we all spend ages sitting at an engineer, button mashing and using up all materials. I don't understand why we have to start over from Grade 1 for every single module, and what purpose does the overall engineer reputation serve now. What I see is that even if we take the time to collect the materials needed for a Grade 5 upgrade, we won't be able to apply it at all, even if we have a high reputation with the given engineer. I don't see this logical at all, and it will lead to the same grind as before, or even worse.

Better stock up on some good FSD modules at least before this is released to the public.

 

[Valorin]

I'm not a huge fan of the old system, but the new systems sounds like it could be even grindier (is that even a word?). Especially as I'm not really interested in god rolls, I normally only have a few goes at a g5 and then settle for the best result I get.

I wouldn't mind so much if collecting materials wasn't so incredibly dull and repetitive. Oh well, I guess we'll see for sure in the beta...

Actually I hope as well that getting material will get a bit more interesting. Things change with that material broker, and yeah, we'll see in the beta. No use to discuss anything before that.

 

[Mengy]

I wonder how many players are doing that.

I am as well. Going to get a single grade 5 mod on every module on all of my ships so I can happily skip Sandro's new grade grind wall. Looking at the math it just seems like a wise decision.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Should we be calling the police?

That moment.... when you're sat at work and then you have to contort your face to stop yourself laughing out loud....

 

[Drelthar]

The devs are looking at the numbers of players with god rolls...and not seeing a problem.

WEll, that's the thing, they would need to look at the amount of time those players spend in game too.

Because, one player who plays 24/7, can have much more of an effect, than 24 players who play an hour or two a week.

 

[Jex =TE=]

That's the thing everybody seems to be overlooking.

It's all very well sitting at an engineer and clicking 3 times to "level up" from tier 1 to tier 2 to show just how wonderfully straightforward it is but the real issue is how long it takes to go and collect the 20-odd mat's required for every bloody module that you plan to apply a G5 mod to.

On a related note, I think Sandro has grossly misjudged the community when he says "engineering should be a gradual process".
I doubt many people regularly engineer ships that way.
Sure, when you first start using engineers you just apply the mod's that you have the mat's for but then, as you collect more and more mat's, you will always go straight to G5.

How many veteran players will show up at an engineer's base with mat's for a G5 mod', do a bunch of rolls, fail to get anything decent and then think "I guess I'll just apply a G4 mod' instead" rather than going back out and looking for more G5 mat's?

It's probably not such an issue for new players, who might actually appreciate it, but it's a PITA for veteran players and, what's more, it'll be a PITA for all the new players once they become experienced too.

If the devs haven't played this through, from a sidewinder to getting a mid ranged ship g5'd then they have no idea what they're talking about either. It's easy to sit there and "cheat" with your materials but a completely different thing to actually play the game you're makling.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Sandro said they tweaked it so it can go higher now than before so your god rolls may no longer be so godly...

jesus christ tho, if we are ALL going to be flying god rolled ships if we spend a few hrs in engineers i really hope the npcs get some more time to drink at the engineer well too.

perosnally if i am honest... i am quite confident i will like the new system

Mac users!!

 

[CMDR Minion Blob]

Engineering 2.0 IS the real Crime and Punishment...it was a broken system but I went along with it because the benefits were there once the Engineers were fully unlocked. Never cared about God rolls, anything decent was good enough.

It seems the Devs focus on the two end of the spectrum and ignored the silent majority. They mentioned the "new players" or those who had never bothered with the Engineer grind in the first place and then they referred to players who do 100s of rolls until they get the G.O.D. Apparently, those are the new baselines to whom they wish to cater this game FTW. I don't have anything against any play style, but this is "Beyond" ridiculous.

I refuse to take on the role of a Material Vacuum, scrounging the Galaxy for hundreds of each of the hundreds of material and data types for every single module at every single visit for every single ship.

Time to find a different hobby altogether.

 

[Drelthar]

Should have just made all currently engineered modules, be maxed out at whatever grade they are.

Have G1 module somewhere? K, even though you rolled minimum on it, it's now a G1 maximum level module.

Same with all grades.

Simple, clean, fair.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

i have to admit i am surprised they are kept.

For better or for worse (and i moan enough about that it is not for this thread) ED is an MMO.... and in MMOs - or any MP games really - devs do balance passes all the time on stuff considered to be OP.

in truth it has no effect on me. none of my rolls would be considered god like, and it is unliklely i will ever come up against and have to fight a god mod ship.... but it does surprise me... unless FD are confident they will all be obsolete anyway.

keeping isn't really a good idea, but given the grind they were, entirely destroying them (and peoples massive invested time) isn't a good idea as well. Thats why porting them over to somewhat equivalent top rated ones is what should be done.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Loving this. People complained about the old system. People complain about the new.

No win. I knew FD shouldn't have bothered changing it. Old system was good enough. They could have spent that time on something exploration related instead.

But as for the OP, the alternative is an across the board wipe of engineered effects. I'm no min/maxer, but it would render half my ships either unsuitable for their work and even unflyable.

The salt about grandfathering is nothing compared the salt FD would face if they wiped peoples efforts they spent on engineering.

Hell, the gaming press would have a field day:

"PLAYERS LOSE HUNDREDS OF HOURS EFFORT AS FD WIPES CUSTOM MODULES"

 

[Oaktree]

Engineering 2.0 IS the real Crime and Punishment...it was a broken system but I went along with it because the benefits were there once the Engineers were fully unlocked. Never cared about God rolls, anything decent was good enough.

It seems the Devs focus on the two end of the spectrum and ignored the silent majority. They mentioned the "new players" or those who had never bothered with the Engineer grind in the first place and then they referred to players who do 100s of rolls until they get the G.O.D. Apparently, those are the new baselines to whom they wish to cater this game FTW. I don't have anything against any play style, but this is "Beyond" ridiculous.

I refuse to take on the role of a Material Vacuum, scrounging the Galaxy for hundreds of each of the hundreds of material and data types for every single module at every single visit for every single ship.

Time to find a different hobby altogether.

This! They forgot about the majority of players that unlocked the engineers at their own pace, and did mid range G5 to their ships, being satisfied with a coulpe of G5 rolls! They only cared for those who never cared or started the engineers and the crazy min/maxers who grind for God rolls! I never grinded for enginners, and now, after the Q1 update if i want to continue to use them, i'll have to grind the materials. The material broker will help for sure, but not enough. Right now i do 1 or 2 rolls whenever i want to upgrade something. After the Q1 update i'll have to do on average 20+ rolls! Insane! How is this better Sandro?